Familytree – Syrian Christians DNA Project Information

Familytree – Syrian Christians DNA Project Information 3.78/5 (75.56%) 9 ratings

Kerala, South India is one of the cradles of Christianity in the world. St Thomas the Apostle, is believed to have brought christianity to Kerala and this region is suppposed to have christianity before most parts of Europe and the world. This project is an attempt to trace the history of Syrian Christians of Kerala geneologically and compare with oral traditions and beliefs.

Syrian Christians of Kerala DNA Project is an attempt to bring together the DNA test results of syrian christians of kerala,India to evaluate the results and check whether oral traditions and beliefs are in line with geneological data.

A Geographic Project connects individuals who believe their direct line comes from a specific location. The Dual Geographic Projects are for individuals who order an mtDNA or Y-DNA test. Either their direct maternal line (mother’s mother’s mother’s…) or direct paternal line (father’s father’s father’s…) originates from this area.

Contacts

To order the kit and join the Project, please visit the Project website- Syrian Christians DNA Project @ FTDNA

Please use the Project website to avail the Project discount while ordering the kit.

The Project is administered in a transparent manner. For details about the Test results, you may use the following sections in Project Website. Y-DNA Test Results for Project Members and mt-DNA Test Results for Project Members

The Project is administered by Jacob Thomas. For additional information, questions please contact the Project Administrator, Jacob Thomas at jacobmanakalathil at gmail dot com.

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272 Comments

  1. DNA testing is frequently showing that the Syrian Christians or Nazaranis are Jewish in paternal bloodline.

    There are far too many Cohen and Levy DNAs in us. The average Nazarani is incapable of fathoming the meaning of this.

    One laughed at my talk on this, that I felt like an idiot. Our culture seems to make us think that we are largely converts from Hinduism. Bishop Menezes of AD1599 has won.

    He made us believe that we are Hindu converts and not of Jewish bloodline. And to make matters worst, many of our fair skinned Nazaranis believe that we are ‘Namboodhiries’.

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    • Hear this interesting talk on History of Ancient India

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  2. We are not just talking about one Haplogroup. There are other indications also. Is it that all those 27 people who tested are some kind of kins of west asian migration.

    It is quick to make a conclusion at this stage with the initial set of results. Even if some concludes that’s better as far as evidences are concerned than the conclusions hundreds of family historians made in our community on stupid boasting of Brahmin origin.

    May I ask you the reverse question on Nasrani Menorah. How do you claim Nasrani Menorah as Persian Cross ? Have this been excavated anywhere in Iraq ? On what basis we can make this link as it is of Church of East. Since when lotus is part of Assyrian or Chadleon motif?

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  3. I think people are a little quick to claim Jewish ancestry. While I think it would be interesting if this is the case, the Haplogroup J2 (M172) that many of us Syrian Christians have simply points to West Asia and not necessarily to the Jews. That we have west asian ancestry is no surprise due to immigration to Kerala from West Asian–as the article indicates.

    But I think what’s happening is people are amplifying one small fact (the presence of the J2 Haplogroup in our blood) into a gigantic story of how the Syrian Christians of Kerala were Jews, and how the Persian Crosses are actually “Nasrani Menorahs”. Since when is the cross of the Church of the East a menorah? It is a cross. Its interesting pattern is a common motif of the Church of the East. Take a look at pictures of the old Assyrian churches in Iraq, and the Nestorian stele in China — they have a similar design.

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  4. Hey,

    I agree that George Mathew on our coming from the middle east but not necessarily jewish. The most likely explanation consistent with the rise of Islam, is the exile of many communities around the world fleeing their homelands to escape persecution, from the jews to parsees and definitely syrian christians. Basically it would be comfortable to say that we are actually Semites from the still surviving Assyrian christian areas like syria-jordan-iraq-iran. The predominance of the J2 haplotype sort of confirmed what the British felt too during the ethnographic surveys of India, where they compared the Nasrani facial measurements with those of the Armenoids (not necessarily armenian but semitic).

    I wish our history wasn’t so hazy, is it reasonable to say that we are still not 100% sure of our origins yet?

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  5. There is a syrian christian project at family tree dna (www.ftdna.com) which has some interesting results. Lets get one thing straight, we might have some brahmin descent, but we shouldn’t crow and make that our whole identity as we should identify more with the dravidian culture we are from. Plus lets get rid of this high caste, low caste mentality, we are christians, in Christ there is no difference and becoming christian should uplift anyone who wants to do so. O.k. now the results of the ftdna are very enlightening. So far of the participants paternal ancenstry haplogroup; a quarter have R1A which is a Indo-european marker, a quarter have J2 which is possilby jewish or middle easter, and a quarter have L(1 or 2) which is a dravidian marker, while the rest were a variety of other markers. Our ancestry is very mixed and shows indigenous dravidian converts, local jewish or immigrant middle eastern descent, and brahmin converts or possibly armenian or persian and/or greek descents. These are the possiblities, but one thing is for certain, many people came to christ from many sections of society and many parts of the world, lets keep that heritage proud by treating others like we treat ourselves, and be peacemakers in the world, like our Christ told us to.

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  6. You seem to be a true Christian Jim.

    I have friends from most part of India. Other than Punjabis and Anglo-indians, the Syrian Christians are the next sect who keep on telecasting their ancestry like a weather forecast in a radio. This can been seen with punjabis too, they speak as if they are the best in India, whilst propagating the message of their fair skin, bravery and promoting Gurunanak who according to them is second to nothing. I quiet often get embarrassed by their attitude towards brown looking madrasees(as they call both kerala, karnataka and tamilnadu people). They praise our education coupled with our industrial backwardness which is obviously true. I am also not happy to talk anything about Anglo-Indians which I feel is really worthless – the concubine parental histories, with not even a micro pinch of pride to claim. Quite often I can easily draw parallels with these three communities.

    Punjabi – Warriors & Fair Skin
    Anglo-Indians – British and European parental claims
    Syrian Christians – Brahmanical and Jewish claims

    Meanwhile the above two has some sort of phenotype evidence to support, but the latter sections claim resembles a puzzle, equipped with vibrant folklores and fantasy stories.

    A simple logical question is this. Why do we need a Brahminical shadow to support our identity. Cant we say that “we are Christians” or do we feel it isn’t fetching an appropriate level of respect. As Anglo-Indians say “We have a white ancestry” so we need a separate parking space! or like treat as masters!

    SHAME! to see this third world attitude.

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  7. Dear BG

    You doesnot seem to be a Nasrani or a Christian. Here are my thoughts on your comments raised in some posts.

    The comparison of Syrian Chrsitians with Punjabi’s and Anglo Indians are illogical and ludicrous.

    Guru Nanak Dev, the founder of Sikhism lifespan is from 1469–1538. Anglo Indians starts further in time line 1812 and 1813 ( legalised). These are kind of pretty open periods in Indian history. We do have records straight. Even the Nasranis has records from 6th century onwards as proff in this soil. (The six Pahlavi crosses). There are magna carta of privileges ranging from 3rd century till the plates whose pictures are given in the article.

    What is the puzzle and vibrant folklore in this ? Every vibrant community has folklores and in 2000 years of existiance its quite natural to have many folklores. Is there anything wrong in that ?

    Secondly NSC NETWORK has a pre defined position. Please read the objectives. Did you find anything offensive in that to be of concern. Did you find anything in this article as fantasy stories ?

    Oh, man in our cyberspace we have more than a dozen sites dedicated to Christian bashings in India from pariwar fraternity making crooked stories.

    Its live and let live brother as long as there is nothing offensive against anyone, no one need to be extra cautious about NSC objectives.

    Last but not least, you seem to be unware of the most of the catchy discussions happening in these community. The creme le de mas of this community and preachers are talking about introducing “Om” to replace “Amen” in prayer for the obuvious reason you can assume.

    On the bottom level the active participants in NSC are just trying to provide intellectual support to tackle the issues with in the community before it get spread out and become a dangerous situation in socio political scene in India.

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  8. Hey BGfromNZ

    Actually the reason why we are concerned about the background of syrian christians is that no one knows the truth and there are little details in our traditions and names and few words that are totally of ancient syriac origin, that one cannot ignore this. I do NOT believe at all in the brahminical origins, as there is absolutely no proof that brahmins were even in Kerala back in AD 42.

    The history behind the origins of Punjabis and Anglo indians are very certain and it really isn’t that hazy since their traditions can be explained and there is no particular aspect of their culture that makes it so mysterious.

    Now, lets say another christian in India say the Latin Christians of kerala, they were either anglo-indians or the fisherfolk, when they goto church they follow exactly the Roman catholic rites. Their mass is exactly like the roman catholic mass, etc. And if they use Roman words, none of us would be surprised, since it would have been obtained directly from the Roman catholic bible.
    For the Konkani Catholics, its very easy too, they follow a roman catholic rite, but they are originally Saraswat brahmins, and the conversions just took place after the Portuguese came, so it is well documented and whatever claims that are made of their ancestry are verifiable.

    For us nasranis, we use named like Varghese, chacko, etc (gewargis-geevarghese-varghese, yakub-chacko, yohan-john, etc etc in ancient syrian). Words like Qurbana, Pesaha (same words are still used by the syrian christians in the middle east). When I told my palestinian christian friend that we call ourselves nasranis, he was surprised as heck. He said that Nazareth in palestine is actually called Nasra by the arabs even now, and nasrani even now in the arab language would mean “From nazareth”. I mean how suspicious is this? Do I just listen to this and just completely think of these as coincidence…. well no… obviously are are still not certain of our history, and it is very unsettling to know that as well. So people came up with bullshit like brahmin conversion and stuff.

    Let me tell you something, if you follow known migrations of communities from one place to another and if in isolation, then most of the traditions are lost, but the only words preserved would be the ones that denotes acts of high importance. Qurbana = mass, pesaha = passover, boths word that would be of utmost importance to a christian community due to the connection with the church, was left completely unaltered. Same thing even when you compare Zoroastrian and Vedic faiths, the stories are all different and teachings are different but even then you can tell there is a connection between the 2 due to similarities in some of the names of the gods, like Mitra, Indra, etc.

    I know some of you may not have known this, but I am sure some of your grandmas or your mothers would have told you at some point that you should not have yoghurt with Fish. This is also a little known jewish tradition even followed now.

    Now look at konkani catholics or anglo-indians or most other communities, they do not have any inconsistencies in their culture that have an undocumented out-of-country origin. We have archaic words that are remnants of an assyrian culture in the middle east that has been relatively well documented as opposed to our community of nasranis where everything is based on theories and speculations without solid evidence.

    So look at the peculiarities of these people somewhere in the south of india, in kerala who call themselves syrian christians. And if someone told you all of the above, and you still said that there could be nothing interesting about the origin of the community, well then I would have no words to say to you.

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  9. Dear BG,

    It was a bit odd to read your reply asking not to speak about your faith and religion. Not that I think it is some ones business to speak about your faith, but i am amused by the non- parallel consideration to talk about Nasrani history with allegations but at the same time questioning anyone who speaks about your belief rudely. Nasrani history is not political history, it is the history of a Christian community.

    Questions on general policies

    We have explained our policies in About NSC page and if you are ready to adhere to our policies from time to time ( as it stands ) you are most welcome to participate irrespective of you following any faith, religion or views or what ever be your intention of being here. It is a privilege for us to have active enthusiasts on Nasrani history from outside ( if you are ) the community.

    Recently we removed the moderation on discussions. We have received few complaints from people with in and outside the community that we are moderating anti oriental comments as well as criticisms.

    As rightly pointed out, NSC Network has a pre defined position. We are pro- Orientals. The collaborators and participants here are from different denominations with in the Nasrani community. We have difference of opinions in many but we work together with mutual respect despite of the differences. Our Pro- Oriental stand doesn’t mean that we don’t tolerate criticism. Positive criticism are most welcomed in a neat language.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong in calling fake, forgery etc if there are absolute reasons to call. We can not tolerate over enthusiasm to use Pariwar trademarked verbology for blind allegations just by the reason that this is a Christian forum.

    What ever yours or anyone’s intention you are most welcome if you talk in neat language of mutual respect. We doesn’t have any interest to bring in stupid allegations and counter allegations or the north Indian syndromes of minority- majority hatred here. My only request is to understand that you are talking about the culture, history of a community and be choosy on the language you use. If you cant take criticism please don’t vomit the same.

    It is our intention to run this as a non – moderated forum. Our position stand as it is. It is what it is and there are no compromises on that.

    No one, including me or collaborators has any grandness on opinions on debates. You are most welcome to criticise,correct, point out errors and mistakes but please do that in a language suited in a forum running on Christian principles.

    [ I just outlined this as a general guideline for smooth discussions and that doesnot mean that BG, you were very offensive. I must say your criticism was positive than many ]

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  10. The first concept that needs to be made clear is- Who is/was a jew ? Jews were/are the followers of the religion of the Southern Kingdom of Israel. Today’s jews we see are least Hebraic and have much European/Khazarian blood in them. But still they are called Jews. Why ? Because the term ‘Jew’ has been generalized for all practicing Judaism, wrongly and this arose from the English translated version of the Bible.

    All Jews today are not descendents of ancient Hebrews or Israelites. There were periodic conversions into Judaism from other religions as seen in Ashkenazis who have much of khazarian blood. Judaism was a religion of those of Judah, Benjamin and other Southern tribes. What about the Northern tribes of North Israel ? They were not called Jews atleast till recent times. They had their own kingdom after Solomon’s time. They were just called Hebrew Israelites. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…. They were never Jews but Hebrews. And after Jacob and his 12 sons came the term ‘Israelite’.

    Then if Nasranis are showing J2 hgps. with Cohens and R1a with levite matches then it cannot be generalized to call all of them Jews but more rightly Hebrew Israelites if the Lost Tribes origin of Nasranis by Asahel Grant is proved by science. This Israelite stock may also contain Judahite Jews too. Cohens and levites are historically not from Judah tribe hence not jews …. But Israelites from tribe of Levi. Again what about other tribes ? They were also J2, E, etc… but with general West Asian DNA minus Cohens or levite matches.

    It is only to avoid confusion and for convenience that the term Jew is generalized for all Israelites today.

    Similarly if Cohen and levite DNAs are found in Nasranis then it is logical to an extent that the other middle-eastern DNA match results could indicate Israelite ancestry, since genetic relation between samples is seen in the project results even of people who are not familialy related. Otherwise, exclusively Levites and Cohen priests settling in Kerala or anywhere else, is beyond logic and common sense. The other tribes should have also come with these priests here with the latter to perform priestly duties of the entire Israelite community and thus most probably the general J2s and West Asian DNAs we see in the project could be of other Israelite tribes. This is the major probability.

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  11. Dear John,

    Perhaps you got a point in your comment. It may be too much of a ‘generalization’ to call all Syrian Christians’ as Jewish and the Archbishop may be wrong.

    Dr. Grant’s book should be given weightage. i would not say ‘heavy’ but moderate. In the book the members of the COE is called ‘Nazerenes’. Now whether you agree or not, Nazerenes are Hebrew as against Gentiles who are called Christians.

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  12. Dear John,

    I am not a good debater because I am now falling back a little ashamed of myself. I should not have so readily admitted that the ‘Orthodox Archbiship’ may be wrong. He may be for all we know, but one can’t say it for we really don’t know. We should have given weightage to the fact that he know every pulse of the middle east and he speaks from experience. Also, the person who was interviewing the Archbishop was Bernstein, one of the leading young anthropologist. who is himself a Jew and his grandfather and others in the family lie buried in the middle east.

    If we decide to say that the ARchbishop was wrong, then the whole reputation of Bernstein is gone with the wind. For it was his reserach/chase of the ‘Holy Grail’ matter that let to all this. This means his methods are also flawed.

    Since I felt that I held the winning card of the members of the COE being called ‘Nazerenes, I will willing to forego pushing on to the Archbishop/Besrnstein matter. I sacrificed that point for a sure knowledge that all Nazerenes are Hebru.

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  13. Let us not rush to conclusions. Let us respect other’ s views also. It is better to be aware
    of facts ,than to be blind followers. hence let us welcome the views of all intersted.

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  14. people of arakuzha,kothamangalam,milakompe(thodupuzha) – a small confined area of eastern part of ernakulam district.- we got ourselves the history of st.thomas who visited these places to convert a small number of brahmin families.the syrian catholic/jacobite population of this places -follows mun-kudummi etc until a century back.and there is the martial arts training followed by syrian christians here(kalaripayat).dear jackson et al ,is there some DNA tests that you conducted on the Syrian Christian families of these places?please do take the samples.it will be very interesting to see the results.

    I heard ,apart from Arakuzha ,some parts of thrissur district also claims namboodiri origins.I am interested in knowing more.
    Thanks!

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  15. Dear All,

    Many of you in this forum will remember me as the ‘Yehudi fanatic’. FTDNA has sent my DNA for a free ‘Cohen’ testing and now it is confirmed 100% that I am Cohenaim and so also 4 other J2s in Jacob’s list. So, there is now good Cohen representation. As you know, Jacob is Admin for the ‘Syrian Christian DNA’ and Bonnie for ‘J2s’ and below Debbie Katz is for ‘Cohen’.

    She has written a letter to a new member to the ‘Cohen’ club. Her name is Ari. Full copy of this letter is with Jacob and Jackson. Pleasae note the reference to us ‘The Syrian Christians of India’.

    For privacy reasons, I am not including the email addresses of dozens of Cohens. Let us be happy that now in that list are 5 Malabar Nasranis.
    Cohen = Thirumeni=Namboothiri. I think the equation has been solved.
    To those who are new to the name ‘Cohen’, it means the direct blood descendent of ‘Aarron’ the brother of Moses. They alone could hold the post of ‘High Priest of Israel’.

    ***************************

    Shalom, Ari! I just noticed you are a 12 marker match with my father (William Katz, but listed under my name as I’m the genetic genealogy fanatic!).

    I’m wondering…are you a relative of Robert Schottenstein (of the Ohio Schottensteins), also in our group, who descends from Ephraim Schottenstein of Suwalki, Lithuania?

    If not, I’d love to get info from you on what you know of your paternal family history (father’s name/birthplace, his father, and so on, as far back as you have traced)and I’m wondering if you have a cohanim tradition in your family.

    Your timing is perfect…with the help of Henry Kaplan, my co-administrator, I’ve been organizing this group of matches for years and I’m just now developing a new set of comparison charts and biographical information to send out to everyone. I will be delighted to include you. (We have a formal “group” at ftdna which you can join, but many of our matches are not in that group but still on my email list so they can get information from me.)

    Ours is a fascinating set of matches, mostly of cohanim Jewish descent, but with a smattering of Italian Catholics and even some Syrian Christians from India….all of which has helped us put together our clans long-term migration story. You are a valuable piece to our puzzle, although as I’ve mentioned to Robert also, we won’t be able to figure out exactly where you fit in until you’ve tested more markers (37 or ideally, 67). You’ll see what I mean when you see the group’s chart, which I hope to get out this week.

    I can give you much more info, but don’t want to scare you away with a too long email! I look forward to hearing from you,

    Debra Katz
    Los Altos CA USA

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  16. Dear George,

    So as u said the Cohen population in Syrian Christian database stands at 5 (actually 6 if its proved further, since Dr. Kuruvilla also seems to be closer to the Cohen cluster, im not yet sure) which is roughly 15% of the total sample results. This is indeed a high frequency (though as of now).

    Even among the world jewish community the frequency of Cohens is only 3-5% of the total of any given jewish community/population as per established researched database.

    Nevertheless, its too early to conclude even a trend, since sample size in our project is small. Let’s wait and watch, since its voluntary self-paid test order it takes time.

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  17. Dear Jackson,

    Is there any correlation between priestly families and the presence of this gene? I thought that in the past, priestly vocations were reserved for only certain families — or perhaps, this is fiction.

    Do the results include samples from Pakallomattom and/or other families with a long history of priests?

    Just wondering …

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  18. Hi Jackson

    As a naive observer, I am just skeptical about our West Asian Origin.

    So far all the DNA results have yielded R1a, R2, J2, H and L , all of which are found commonly in South Indian populations. No samples are found of E3b, R1b, and G, which are common across the Middle East. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/archaeogenetics/1547718128/) We could say that these were a result of Late migration to those areas (i.e, after Nasranis emigrated). Then the earlier stock of Nasranis would have consisted of only J2, R1a (and probably L and H if you take Iran),

    But that would be a kind of coincidence. Also, if J2 Cohen is claimed to be unique to Nasranis among South Indians, we should find out whether there are any J2 Cohens in other populations of South india.

    Maybe we should wait for still more samples, however, looking at the current sample(with the possible exception of J2 Cohen), the first hypothesis would be of an Indian upper/middle caste population.

    As for mtDNA, I guess there are almost no doubts that M* and R* are native to India from the Paleolithic.

    Do the ‘red’ haplogroups indicate that they are not at all tested? Are they predicted fully on family tree?
    In any case, I think we should be looking for one sample from each patrilineal family line rather than individuals, and count the no of samples, if we are interested in the haplo % of our topmost ancestors. In that case, N = 39 -19(red haplo) = 20.

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  19. Dear John Mathew,

    The co-relation between the unique ‘Cohen’ gene sequence or signature and its relation to the Hebrew Priestly class male have been establishes by research which started long back. This has proven to be more than a fiction wherein Jewish males claiming and in fact of Priestly oral traditions were tested and confirmed to carry this common set of genetic signature that sets them apart from the rest of the Jewish population.

    Why this sequence is so unique ? Well as we know the Aaronite (Cohens) and non-aaronite Levites were Priestly Hebrew class with common distant ancestor(s)… whoever He may be. This commonality passed on to their sons which we call the ‘Cohen sequence’ or Cohen Modal Haplotype, CMH found in J1 and J2 groups or Levite Modal Haplotype, LMH found almost in R1a group and also few others.

    How can such a sequence of markers be found in common in such a high percentage of Priestly class Jews (or Israelites) unless it actually was passed on and preserved without major mutations ! Genes dont lie and research has established. There are plenty of papers out there which describe the findings and substantiate with evidence, tradition-wise and scientifically. These are the two inseparable parts of genealogy studies.

    So what the Bible all along describes that only Aharon’s sons were given High Priestly duties and other Levites to be their “assistants” is not just fables but as u see scientifically true !

    So its not a mere co-incidence that most of the J2 and R1a samples in our database are matches to the Modal Haplotypes carrying the signatures or their variants. Had it been a sample or two with a little vague similarity I would have been sceptical. But thats not the case as I have been describing all along this forum.

    A very high proportion of our samples are either perfect or close matches to the CMH and LMH as the case may be and that too inter-related, though familialy they may be different. That speaks volumes if u read well. It shows there are few and common contributors to our paternal gene pool and we may not be that genetically distinct from each other as we thought we are. As I said we need more samples for any conclusion but the trends are surely establishing.

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  20. And yes, the Nasrani genetic database does include Pakalomattam and such males who claimed “Brahminical” origins.

    I had earlier told on NSC that the project administrator himself is from Pakalomattam family and is confirmed tested to be a J2a Cohen with genetic relations with Ashkenazi Jewish Priestly families today. This news has gone around long back in research circles.

    So also 5-6 other J2 samples are confirmed with Cohen ancestry and already there in the world Cohen database list. And again this is a news that has taken even the Jews across the globe by surprise, though not I am surprised. George Mathew was not bluffing when he presented his test results here as been a Cohen tested and confirmed !

    Thanks

    Jackson

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  21. Dear SV,

    I just thought of replying to ur comments individually….

    “As a naive observer, I am just skeptical about our West Asian Origin.”

    Well you are one of the many. No worries, u will learn. Thats good actually if you are positively sceptical. Go around this forum and threads wherein I have posted much info on the DNA test results.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————-

    “So far all the DNA results have yielded R1a, R2, J2, H and L , all of which are found commonly in South Indian populations. No samples are found of E3b, R1b, and G, which are common across the Middle East. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/archaeogenetics/1547718128/) We could say that these were a result of Late migration to those areas (i.e, after Nasranis emigrated). Then the earlier stock of Nasranis would have consisted of only J2, R1a (and probably L and H if you take Iran)”

    Yeah haplorgoups AS SUCH are found across the globe. But thats not genealogy genetics comments and predicts on ancestries. We have things like haplotypes, marker values, matches, etc… And after having done all this the concerned research persons are opinionating that the Nasrani samples are nowhere near nor related to the other Indian populations, paternally. Yes the only exceptions are the H and few of the L samples which are indeed indicative of local origins for the corresponding families.

    R1b, E3b and G are NOT so very “common” across the middle-east ! R1b is almost absent there and is concentrated around western european, the british isles, etc. E3b is originally from North African ancestry and also is afro-semitic in origin and common in Jews as it entered the Hebrew population after the Exodus period from Egypt. It is genetically come from outside into the original Hebrew race though it doesnt matter religion-wise. And its frequency decreases eastwards this region into middle-east.

    G is also NOT of middle-eastern “origin”. Its highest frequency and therefore u can say its possible origin is around Turkey and Caucasia (Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.) and the Russian steppes. Yes, many Jews also have the G haplogroup and if Im not wrong as far as I have read and know its specifically G2c which is found in Jews.

    WHy all the above admixtures ? Because Jews and Hebrews were never a endogamous people and Judaism was a highly proselytizing religion in ancient times. Therefore the Jews have developed a common set of genetic markers after having come together from varied original inputs and formed what we have a mosaic yet unique and distinct set today. Because after they joined in they were endogamous within the community and preserved paternal lines.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————-

    “But that would be a kind of coincidence. Also, if J2 Cohen is claimed to be unique to Nasranis among South Indians, we should find out whether there are any J2 Cohens in other populations of South india.”

    Yeah they are already finding out and have found out. J2 Cohens are absent in the other populations from the research work done so far by different scientists. Actually it was the so-called other populations that had been studied earlier while our community hadnt gone into scientific search. Now even that has started and results are coming out. The paternal lineage/origin results say we are distinct from the others around. You may believe it or not. I have commented on the few exceptions. Also read my reply to Mr. John Mathew which also is relevant for you.

    “Maybe we should wait for still more samples, however, looking at the current sample(with the possible exception of J2 Cohen), the first hypothesis would be of an Indian upper/middle caste population.”

    You may hypothesize as u like but thats not acceptable as far as the results say. And yes, sample size is low to conclude anything which is already stated on the project homepage as u must have definitely read. And I dont understand what u mean by “upper-caste” still. That tag is difficult to leave behind I know. No worries again.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————-

    “As for mtDNA, I guess there are almost no doubts that M* and R* are native to India from the Paleolithic.”

    Now u sound like a person who knows some genetics or atleast has read something. Yes, true, M*type of mtDNA is Asian/Indian/Indo-Persian or whatever u may call it. R* type mtDNA is not local Indian. It is of course common in the so-called upper-caste Indians (North and South) but has been originated from the Near East and Persia, outside India. It has further subsets again. R* is a parent haplogroup of more sub-sets in mtDNA types. So it “could be” again from the Indian maternal pool as u said.

    Well one of R* type mtDNA in our database is of a west asian type. Its not Indian anyway for sure. But exactly what needs confirmation since the project is now concentrating on Y-DNA results.

    But maternal ancestry more or less is local in origin from the huge trend seen, whatever caste is not the point of genetic studies.
    ———————————————————————————————————————————————-

    “Do the ‘red’ haplogroups indicate that they are not at all tested? Are they predicted fully on family tree?
    In any case, I think we should be looking for one sample from each patrilineal family line rather than individuals, and count the no of samples, if we are interested in the haplo % of our topmost ancestors. In that case, N = 39 -19(red haplo) = 20.”

    For the red marked haplogroups u can read on the project results page. It is a tested result. Well I couldnt understand or digest your “formula/equation”. Sorry, I have no idea what it means. Is that from a established source or your own thought ? You urself said we should wait for more samples then why do u come up with such equations and % ratios now ? Well those results displayed are for individual distinct paternal families. And a Y-DNA result speaks for an entire male lineage of a paternal side family not just the tested individual. There is one sample exception, you may minus it in the total.

    Finally u can contact the project admin for more details and doubts if any. Also read the reply to John Mathew on R1a and J2, etc.

    Thanks

    Jackson

    Post a Reply
  22. Dear Jackson,

    Thanks. To be clear, I was not contesting the Cohen Priestly class concept. I was asking about whether there is any correlation between Kerala Syrian Christian priestly families (i.e., the Pakallomattams, and other key priestly families of the Syriac Catholics and Orthodox of Kerala) and the Cohen marker. Thanks for confirming Pakallomattam is J2 — this saves some of us some cash!

    Hopefully some Kollam Muthalallys and Thulassery Manapurathu descendants take this test so we can get some more details on the Mar Sabor / Mar Aphroth migration (since those two families, and possibly others, claim to descent from immigrants of that migration).

    By the way, there are records of the East Syriac Catholicos/Patriarch authorizing the marriage of Persian Christians and Indians way back. I think many of these Persian Christians were ethnic Persian and not Syriacs since Pahlavi is older than Syriac in Kerala. Is there anything in the results that suggests Persian ancestry? Perhaps this is difficult to answer because the Persians were a mixed people?

    Post a Reply
  23. Dear John Mathew,

    Well regarding Persian ancestry I am still not sure because Persians were/are the most varied people in the world genetic database as u said correctly.

    No one is still sure who are the actual ethnic and original “Persians”. Some say the Zoroastrians. Persia was a place where many cultures confluenced. So its difficult to predict and there are many hypothesis out there.

    But yes the Zoroastrians and any community connected to Persia even vaguely have the occurence of R2 haplogroup in them. Almost 50% of the Parsis/Zoroastrians tested are said to be R2 as per one paper. And even Armenians (who are related to Persians as Armenia was a part of the Persian empire) have a high frequency of R2. Also the Ashkenazi Jews in and around Persia have good frequency of R2 haplogroup. So its like a mystery for this haplogroup. Its also rarely seen in India. So its origins are taken to be Persia.

    In the Nasrani database we have 5 samples that are R2 which is significant but they do not match the other R2 samples found in other Indian communities. Few of our R2′s are closer to the Armenian and Ashkenzai Jewish R2 types in marker values. Others have no matches with any other community anywhere ! Thats because R2 is a scattered group.

    But our R2 samples might have something to do with migrants “from” the Assyrian/Persian empire considering the notable frequency in our database, whose original ancestry/ethnicity cannot be guessed now.

    Post a Reply
  24. And do not take for granted that all families “claiming” Pakalomattam or the famous priestly family heritage will be J2 Cohens ! Who knows how many of these claims are true and not made-up ? Only few of them might be genuinely so. Im just playing a positive critic here… Be informed !

    We already see how easily history and claims can be altered as per the social need while the truth may be unquestioned. So take it with a pinch of salt.

    But yes, many of the “Brahmin” claiming families will have a Cohen or Levite relation as seen in the project results. And in the database there are samples which also include native Indian/Dravidian ancestry. Even these families must be having “Brahminical” claims for sure. So how do we explain this then ?

    So u see the big mess we are in ?

    Post a Reply
  25. Dear Jackson

    Thanks for your detailed replies.

    I’ll just clarify my sources and understanding. It’s not to contradict anything. Correct me If I am wrong.

    E3b, G, R1b and I:
    These two links gave conflicting info (maybe due to difference in their sample size)
    1. http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf and
    2. http://www.flickr.com/photos/archaeogenetics/1547718128/

    E3b is around 15% in Persians and Arabs.
    R1b at 5%
    I is present around 25% in Persians as per (1)
    G is present at 12% in Persians as per (2)

    I agree regarding the origins, i.e G is from Caucasses and E3b from North Africa. Apart from that, ‘I’ from Europe, R1b from Europe. However, the question is when did they come to Middle East/Persia? After 1st century? Upper Paleolithic? Islamic conquest of Persia? These are difficult questions for us.

    Note that the historicity of Exodus is doubted even by Rabbis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wolpe#Historicity_of_the_Exodus

    As for J2 Cohen, I think, there were 6 Nasrani matches in Ysearch. 4 of them where from the same family. So, effectively 3. But the samples from India on ysearch are very few, maybe around 100-200, and J2 at 25, and the samples from Kerala scanty; Only one sample-from the Nair project I guess.

    But still, I agree that a 12 marker Cohen haplotype match is remarkable, considering that it is not yet found in the Middle East, and other Indian samples.

    Is there any y-haplogroup testing done on Cochin Jews?

    I tried matching some of the Nasrani sounding R1a1 samples found on ysearch. None of them gave any ’0′ distance matches. And anyway, I’ve seen on some pages that this is said to be of Ashkenazi origin, not from the early centuries.

    My doubt related to ‘red’ haplogroups is because of what they’ve mentioned on the results page:

    “Haplogroups in red have been predicted by Family Tree DNA based on unambiguous results in the individual’s personal page. This has been placed on this GAP page for your ease and convenience. Please note that for any predicted results we see no reason for ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup”

    So it sounded like they were not tested.

    mtDNA R,M:

    I understand your point regarding mtDNA. I felt from the haplogroup maps that mtDNA migrations across natural geographic boundaries are limited when compared to y-DNA.

    Table 6 of this paper: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Metspalu2004.pdf doesn’t give any major caste based differentiation on mtDNA. They used relatively larger no of samples, than others which claimed caste based linkages.

    However there is a region based differentiation. Western states like Gujarat and Kashmir show more West Eurasian mixture, decreasing as we go south along the west coast of Maharashtra, Karnataka and finally Kerala. Interestingly, Rajasthan shows less West admixture due to the Thar natural barrier I guess. Similarly across the Chinese border you can see Eust Eurasian mixture.

    The sample taken for Kerala was almost entirely from Cochin Jews. It showed little presence of any West Eurasian haplogroups (which were also probably locally inherited, considering the West Eurasian % on the Indian West coast)

    I used the term ‘caste’ as this is what most genetic study papers on India concentrate on, apart from region. This had nothing to do with the Namboothiri origin myth.

    Though the origin of the R is in the Middle East, looking at Figure 5 of the above study, I thought most of the subclades of R, apart from the one named by other letters and the East Eurasian R*, are found in the Indian Sub Continent.

    By West Asian R* did you mean that R* may get resolved into HV, U or the like?

    y-dna R2:

    The Wikipedia page says,
    “At least 90% of R2 individuals are located in the Indian sub-continent”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2_(Y-DNA)#Distribution
    http://www.ethnoancestry.com/index_files/index_data/Haplogroup_R2_Manoukian.pdf
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1380230&rendertype=figure&id=FG4

    Thanks
    SV

    Post a Reply
  26. Dear Jackson

    Thanks for your detailed replies.

    I’ll just clarify my sources and understanding. It’s not to contradict anything. Correct me If I am wrong.

    E3b, G, R1b and I:
    These two links gave conflicting info (maybe due to difference in their sample size)
    1. (http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf) and
    2. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/archaeogenetics/1547718128/)

    E3b is around 15% in Persians and Arabs.
    R1b at 5%
    I is present around 25% in Persians as per (1)
    G is present at 12% in Persians as per (2)

    I agree regarding the origins, i.e G is from Caucasses and E3b from North Africa. Apart from that, ‘I’ from Europe, R1b from Europe. However, the question is when did they come to Middle East/Persia? After 1st century? Upper Paleolithic? Islamic conquest of Persia? These are difficult questions for us.

    Note that the historicity of Exodus is doubted even by Rabbis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wolpe#Historicity_of_the_Exodus

    As for J2 Cohen, I think, there were 6 Nasrani matches in Ysearch. 4 of them where from the same family. So, effectively 3. But the samples from India on ysearch are very few, maybe around 100-200, and J2 at 25, and the samples from Kerala scanty; Only one sample-from the Nair project I guess.

    But still, I agree that a 12 marker Cohen haplotype match is remarkable, considering that it is not yet found in the Middle East, and other Indian samples.

    Is there any y-haplogroup testing done on Cochin Jews?

    I tried matching some of the Nasrani sounding R1a1 samples found on ysearch. None of them gave any ’0′ distance matches. And anyway, I’ve seen on some pages that this is said to be of Ashkenazi origin, not from the early centuries. Well I might’ve missed something there.

    My doubt related to ‘red’ haplogroups is because of what they’ve mentioned on the results page:

    “Haplogroups in red have been predicted by Family Tree DNA based on unambiguous results in the individual’s personal page. This has been placed on this GAP page for your ease and convenience. Please note that for any predicted results we see no reason for ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup”

    So it sounded like they were not tested.

    mtDNA R,M:

    I understand your point regarding mtDNA. I felt from the haplogroup maps that mtDNA migrations across natural geographic boundaries are limited when compared to y-DNA.

    Table 6 of this paper: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Metspalu2004.pdf doesn’t give any major caste based differentiation on mtDNA. They used relatively larger no of samples, than others which claimed caste based linkages.

    However there is a region based differentiation. Western states like Gujarat and Kashmir show more West Eurasian mixture, decreasing as we go south along the west coast of Maharashtra, Karnataka and finally Kerala. Interestingly, Rajasthan shows less West admixture due to the Thar natural barrier I guess. Similarly across the Chinese border you can see Eust Eurasian mixture.

    The sample taken for Kerala was almost entirely from Cochin Jews. It showed little presence of any West Eurasian haplogroups (which were also probably locally inherited, considering the West Eurasian % on the Indian West coast)

    I used the term ‘caste’ as this is what most genetic study papers on India concentrate on, apart from region. This had nothing to do with the Namboothiri origin myth.

    Though the origin of the R is in the Middle East, looking at Figure 5 of the above study, I thought most of the subclades of R, apart from the one named by other letters and the East Eurasian R*, are found in the Indian Sub Continent.

    By West Asian R* did you mean that R* may get resolved into HV, U or the like?

    y-dna R2:

    The Wikipedia page says,
    “At least 90% of R2 individuals are located in the Indian sub-continent”
    (http://www.ethnoancestry.com/index_files/index_data/Haplogroup_R2_Manoukian.pdf)

    Thanks
    SV

    Post a Reply
  27. Dear SV,

    On R2 I said it has still to be determined what it’s exact origin is because it is a scattered haplogroup with no specific haplotypes. It is concentrated in and around Persia, Armenia and also in few communities in eastern parts of India. I dont know what link Nasranis might have to eastern Indian states and related migrations. Therefore the paper on ethnoancestry also says the same it does a pan-Indian “sub-continent” presence but not necessarily originated in India.

    To see if our R2 samples are of Indian or foreign origin we look for matches as I said. Unfortunately due to the constricted data available for R2 it is not be determined. But it also does not match the existing Indian R2 samples. It is much closer to the Armenian and Ashkenazi Jewish R2. So we cannot conclude anything for now.

    For R1a1 Nasranis R1a1 (most of them) are either perfect or close matches to the Ashkenzai Levite Modals (LMH). 3 of our R1a1 samples are exact LMH matches, so that says it. The others are varying in a couple of markers but closer, mutations cud be the reason. As long as the genetic distance is 3 or less the DNAs are related and having common origins. The lesser the distance the more clearer the conclusion. The Indian R1a1 and J2 samples are far from the Nasrani R1a1 and J2. The project admin himself has commented on this. I have also personally checked on ysearch and seen it.

    And as far as the Nasrani Cohen samples in our database go they are around 5-6 and from DISTINCT paternal families. I dont know who told u they are from the same family. If they are from the same paternal family they should all be perfect matches “to each other” and its logic ! Firstly u wouldnt get male members from a single family tested… u are wasting money coz they will give same results and thats understood ! Thats not the case here. Get your confusin resolved from the project admin please.

    On the mtDNA, R* can again be resolved further as u said if tested further. And one of our R* is just a generation away by one step from mtDNA haplogroup H which is of west asian maternal lineage (also found in people from europe).

    Finally, get in touch with the project admin Mr. Manakalathil. He will be the best person for first-hand info. Do not rely completely on wikipedia and websites or already done research. Research opens up new things almost daily ! So it updates itself.

    Thanks

    Post a Reply
  28. Perhaps one should ask *when* these Cohen markers were introduced into the Syrian Christian community. Its well documented that there have been multiple Jewish immigrations to the Malabar coast.

    The most recent (afaik) was after the expulsion of Jews from Spain and they came to be known as the “white Jews” in Kerala.

    From what I have “heard” these Jews ran out of suitable Jewish women to marry and took brides from the Syrian Christian communities (note plural) as they were deemed “closest”. The descendants were brought up as Syrian Christians.

    Its very likely that some of the Cohen markers (especially since they are so close to American based Jews) entered then.

    About the Indian markers in Syrian Christian males, I’ve explained that here: http://sharbtho.blogspot.com/2007/12/on-syrian-christians-nasrani-mappilas.html

    As I try to point out there, one can expect heterogeneity amongst the Syrian Christians genetically. We’re too old and too mobile a community to retain genetic/cultural homogeneity.

    Thanks,
    veliath

    Post a Reply
  29. To add to Deepak’s comment: another possibility is via our intercourse with Syriac Christians (not “Jewish Christians”) from West Asia.

    I believe it is also documented that the Jewish Christians in the Eastern Roman Empire and the Persian Empire merged with the Gentile Syriac Christians, for various reasons. So I don’t think it would be surprising if the same J2/Cohen markers in our community were found in the general Syriac Christian communities — the Syriac Orthodox/Catholics, the CoE, the Chaldeans — in the Middle East. Has anyone looked into this?

    Perhaps when members of those communities came to Kerala and intermarried with our ancestors (e.g., (1) there are families in Kollam who trace their ancestry the Persian/Syrian colonists of the Mar Sabor/Mar Aphroth era, (2) Mar Andrews’—Kallada Bawa—brother married into a Kerala family, and his descendants include Mor Gregorios of Parumala, and the early bishops of the Malabar Indep. Syriac Church of Thozhiyur, (3) Mar Yuhakim Coorilos came and his brother married into a Kerala family; ironically his descendant is a Protestant bishop — ironic because Mor Coorilos came to stop the spread of Protestant heterodoxy in Kerala, (4) someone on this board claimed his ancestor “Tolani” as a Syriac immigrant) they brought along their J2 DNA. That is — perhaps these J2 Cohens came to Kerala not as Jews but as bonafide Orthodox/Catholic Christians.

    Post a Reply
  30. Dear Deepak,

    You wrote ‘…From what I have “heard” these Jews ran out of suitable Jewish women to marry and took brides from the Syrian Christian communities (note plural) as they were deemed “closest”. The descendants were brought up as Syrian Christians..

    If available, can you please give some more details?

    Post a Reply
  31. I have recently been in couple of Syrian orthodox baptism and marriage and what I could see these Syrian/ west Asian traditions. Open your eyes and look at those people we can easily conclude that these west Asian people with Indian influence on them. then consider how we got our j2 r1a1 r2 in our dna samples. i even feel that we don’t even need a dna result to say these concepts. u need to know how complicated these traditions exist today and continue to go on and where we can find a spot to put these huge Hindu converts in it? and unknowingly westasian blood are distributing through marriages in different denominations and the generations are still go on. but i would say there can be few Hindu converts but they should be melt in these Syrian Christian populations. Debates going on beetween jacobites and orthodox that jacobites want their administration from west Asian bishops because they strongly believe that they are connected to west Asia. people who are just easy commenting something go and stand for an orthodox Syrian church and watch and participated a ceremony and u will see that it not a joke and u will feel the seriousness in it

    Post a Reply
  32. Dear rp,
    Their cravings for the spiritual leadership was always from the West Asia.They might have adopted the Hindu conversion story as blanket to defend the religious persecution .

    Post a Reply
  33. Hi all,
    I am a foundling in this DNA studies and I really dont want to browse net to understand how testing is done etc etc..
    I have a question and dont call me stupid!

    About this paternal DNA test, does it test only father’s father’s father’s and so on or does it include father’s mother’s father or mother. Similarly for the maternal DNA test. I hope u got my point. I find this very confusing. For all I know inheritance can be from any side of the family. My son looks like my hubby and daughter looks like my father (I look like my mother)..
    If you guys Kezhakken/SV/George Mathew/jackson can answer me it will be nice.

    Post a Reply
  34. Hi Annie,

    The paternal dna only comes through the Y chromosome which is basically as you say only father’s, father’s father and so on into antiquity. Mothers is through mitochondrial DNA, and if my understanding is correct it will only be showing maternal DNA whether that be father’s mother or mother’s mother. Hope this help, and others can elaborate if they want. Here are some wiki links to look at.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mitochondrial_DNA_haplogroup

    Post a Reply
  35. Dear Annie, I would say heritage can be comes to a Syrian Christian member from mother’s father or mother’s mother’ father family and none of them cannot be trace it clearly through DNA test except Y. DNA. if we get a sample from the male side from these families we can know their paternal heritage. What we looking is that if we believe St Thomas came to Malabar it most probably looking for Jewish Israelites in Malabar coast because there was an ancient trade exist in Malabar towards West Asian places and that is tell we have these jewish israelites presences. Our forefathers most probably Jewish, Israelites, Assyrians, Persians and then there can be a chance or some namboothris , nairs among our community. but we know that we all together and we all sharing these blood by having marriage in families. Again let me say probable chance that among Marthoma Christians are the decedents of St Thomas converted people who can be Jewish or Israelites encourage to do a paternal test so that we can know some one specifically showing Jewish ancestry but some samples did it. But that doesn’t mean that others are not sharing these heritage. I would say almost everybody is sharing these heritage but it may not stays in the paternal side and let me say my ydna says r2 which i dont yet found much info on that and my mother’s family ydna r1a1 have plenty of askennaze levites matches. Please wait for Jackson to give you a clear answer regarding Annie’s question

    Post a Reply
  36. Dear Chacko
    Thanks. I did go through the wiki pages.
    .
    Ctrl C and Ctrl V for those who wonder like me and dont want to ask.

    “Most of your DNA is Autosomal and you get it from both parents coming down from all your ancestors.Y is passed soley from father to son.Mitochondrial is passed from mother to both sons and daughters, but only the daughters pass it on to their children.Genealogy DNA companies as a rule use Y & Mitochondrial only as it goes back in a straight line virtually unchanged. Y-DNA and mtDNA tests each only trace a single lineage (one’s father’s father’s father’s etc. lineage or one’s mother’s mother’s mother’s etc. lineage). They will advertise that you can find your “deep ancestral roots.” However it will only be in those 2 lines. Since you are a female you can only get your Mitochondrial done. If you have a brother he can get both. It will not give you your ancestors who were spouses of your direct Y & Mitochondrial ancestors. ”

    ie if u are a girl make sure u have a daughter to pass on ur DNA! :) :)

    Post a Reply
  37. Dear RP,
    Thanks.
    I didnt exactly understand what u meant by this ” Marthoma Christians are the decedents of St Thomas converted people who can be Jewish or Israelites encourage to do a paternal test so that we can know some one specifically showing Jewish ancestry but some samples did it.” Did u mean Marthoma denomination or Marthoma christians as in St Thomas christians.

    Any way I am Orthodox with my paternal side being orthodox for the last 8 generations. My maternal side is a mixture of Orthodox and Marthoma. My maternal grandfather was Orthodox and maternal grandmother is marthoma. From what I have seen, there is lot of interdenominational marriage amongst christians of Tiruvalla side,be it Orthodox or Marthoma or CSI.

    I guess, I will not learn anything much by testing my DNA as what I gathered from this site is that maternal DNA of those who has tested resulted in an Indian origin.

    Post a Reply
  38. Dear Annie,

    Inheritance and traits for that matter are contributed from both the father’s and mother’s side. If you are speaking of physical traits then yes.

    Now coming to the ancestral studies… It is different from the previous one. Y-DNA is the Y-chromosome that is passed on exclusively from father to son to son and so forth un-interrupted for ages. So when a person (male only) tests for his y dna it says about his specific male lineage or paternal founder/ancestor.

    Males also carry the mtDNA or mitochondrial DNA from the mother as the father contributes almost nil mtDNA. This is that particular tested person’s maternal lineage only. This mtDNA would be same only for him and his direct siblings. However the mtDNA of his father could be different as his father’s mother is from a different family/lineage. So mtDNA/maternal lineages in a given family could be different at different generations since (different) women ‘enter’ a family as in a patriarchal society. But this family’s Y-DNA remains the same throughout, detected in males of the family.

    So when I say my mtDNA is X, it doesnt mean my maternal “ancestors” were from X haplogroup but just my mother’s mtDNA is X. But with Y-DNA haplogroup I can go back ages to my paternal ancestors and find who they were since it passes on uniterrupted. The case would be reverse in a matriarchal society.

    Females carry only the mtDNA and no y dna. So a female’s paternal ancestry can be known from her brother’s or father’s test result only.

    I also found an interesting comment from your post saying ” if u are a girl make sure u have a daughter to pass on ur DNA! “. Funny but scientifically wrong. A girl/female passes her DNA TO BOTH her male and female children. Thats basically why both men and women carry mtDNA (and X chromosome) which is from their mother. The father passes the Y-DNA or Y-chromosome to his son only.

    Thus we get the basic human biology (of the sex chromosomes) of males been ‘XY’ (X from mother and Y from father) in composition while females been ‘XX’ (one X from mother and other X from father) !

    mtDNA from the mother plays a very important role in determining many features of a child (male/female). In fact mtDNA (thus mother) has a lot to contribute to physical characters and traits of her children.

    I hope I have been clear and not confused you more….. Any more queries are welcome.

    Post a Reply
  39. Annie,

    To exactly learn about your family’s heritage/ancestry you need to get your direct brother or father tested. The results will also apply to you and speak of your paternal ancestry as well.

    Genetic studies have nothing to do with denominational barriers which are outwards. The results speak for the entire community as a whole. I hope atleast here people wont be biased and agree that all Thomasine Christians are (were) one community till 16 cent. AD. Down the line and within our genes and DNA we are all one!

    Post a Reply
  40. Dear Jackson,
    Thanks.
    Just for the sake of argument, If I had only a son, i will pass my Mt DNA to him but he cannot pass it on to his offspring. But if I have a daughter too, she will pass it on to her children and hopefully that will be a daughter too. (So I can ensure at least ensure that my DNA has lived on for another century. :) )

    I know that this is not the forum for this topic. Thanks to all for ur answers.

    Post a Reply
  41. Dear Annie,
    What i meant Marthoma Christians is that not Marthomites or Marthoma denomination and that is different. But what Marthoma means in general doesn’t matter which denomination it is, it means in suryani saint thomas( mar=saint, thoma=thomas) . More clearly it means the people who converted by St Thomas. We need to know all we all are Syrian Christian or suryani Christani that I think we all rooted someway to the west Asian land may be from palatine Israel Syria, Jewish Christians from Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq which St Thomas evangelize these places same as well as in India. But we may not original in these sense but mixed with few Indians like when Namboothirs, Nair Dravidians, locals converted compared to many immigrants in our Christian community
    Again we used to be one before Portuguese arrived in 15th century and Portuguese let all the Syrian Christian converted to Catholics by force and destroyed lot of Syrian Christian ancient documents. Therefore we don’t have any proof regarding our history instead some oral information. After coon kurusu sathyam, our forefather came out from these Portuguese traditions and started to rebuilt the original Aramaic worship except some group and that is the roman catholic and Latin catholic denomination. Then different denominations originated i think Orthodox and Marthoma were right after coonon kurusu sathaym Therefore we are Syrian Christians that people just say first it was catholic. then orthodox or may be Jacobite , Marthoma , CSI , Evangelical, Reeth but nobody has any information what it was 1st century to 15 th century. These I write from my knowledge but Jackson , and few others are best in these to answer annie’s questions

    Post a Reply
  42. Just Got this news from Jacob Admin

    I am Jacob Admin of the Syrian Christan dna project on familytree dna. I welcome you to our group.
    I just saw your results and was surprised to see E1b haplogroup which is not yet seen among keralites or Indians. It is clearly a middle eastern haplogroup ( found in southern Europe and Northern African mediteranean areas). This gives more evidence that there were quite a lot of middle eastern migrations to India in the past.

    Post a Reply
  43. I just saw the E3b entry in our ftdna. I guess that adds more weight to the West Asian hypothesis. Well let’s even wait for more samples, Jackson ;)

    Post a Reply
  44. Dear SV and Varghese Paul,

    The presence of E3b (E1b1b1) clearly resolves the confusion (if any) of West Asian (particularly Jewish) influence on the Nasrani community. E3b for that matter is the second largest haplogroup among Jews, typical of middle-easterners and mediterranean people. It is completely Semitic (southern levant in origin) beyond doubt.

    Probably thats the first sample in India to be tested as E3b as the project admin says. And I wouldnt be surprised at all. Also a J1 or G2c among us wouldnt either be surprising. Let’s see….

    Post a Reply
  45. Dear Varghese Paul,

    Are you the E3b tested person with family name Kuttikadan ? Just curious as this is one of my relatives family name from Thrissur dist.

    Post a Reply
  46. Nice to see such an informative site on St. Thomas Christians. I feel it is a novel leap in tracing the history of St. Thomas Christians through DNA mapping. My very apprehension is whether it is really possible. Human Genome project is only half a way, some are with the view that completion is not possible. Defenetly I beleive that some traits can be traced but not a for authenticated establishment of the history. I am sorry if my knowledge is meager. Need to know more………………

    Post a Reply
  47. Hi Jackson

    As a newcomer, I see from the postings that you have a sound understanding of the genograph.
    As most enquiring minds do, I myself have a healthy sense of curiosity about my own ethnic origins in relation to (and despite) my (Knanaya) community’s claims.

    I have the following data to share with you for your academic evaluations. The DNA analysis was done through National Geographic’s Genographic Project in March 2008:
    Name: Cyril Abraham/House name: Thathamkulam/From: Neezhoor (Kaduthuruthy, Kottayam)
    Y-chromosome DNA testing confirms that I belong to: Haplogroup J2 (M172)

    The report further elucidates:
    The M172 marker defines a major subset of haplogroup J, which arose from the M89 lineage. It is found today in North Africa, the Middle East, and southern Europe. In southern Italy it occurs at frequencies of 20 percent, and in southern Spain 10 percent of the population carries this marker. Both haplogroup J and its subgroup J2 are found at a combined frequency of around 30 percent in Jewish individuals.

    And, as to my genetic journey, the report states:
    Your ancestors left a physical footprint that matches their genetic journey. Artifacts from ancient towns such as Jericho, also known as Tell el-Sultan, a site close to present day Jerusalem, provide evidence of permanent human settlements to around 8500 BC. The sites also suggest the transition from hunter-gatherer to settled life occurred relatively suddenly. This is where your genetic trail, as we know today, ends.

    Furthermore, the Project has provided a map showing the start of the genetic journey: from a point closer to the mid-eastern section of Africa with the title, “Eurasian Adam”, 31,000-79,000 years ago.

    Feel free to quote my name and the data as given if it is helpful for your on evaluations and the ongoing discussions. Like I said in my initial posting, I’m open-minded, with an acute enquiring mind, and would not matter one way or the other whatever story my genetic markers may have to say. It is what it is! If you need more info, please do not hesitate to let me know.

    Post a Reply
  48. Dear Rev. John G. Mathew,

    The ‘Human Genome project’ is neither half-way nor under doubts of completion !! The HGP was completed fully with the final drafting out in 2003. You could even google search it for back reference. So we are well past the stage.

    Dear Cyril Abraham,

    You are the first Kna I’m hearing to belong to J2 haplogroup as u say. J2 is indeed a typically semitic marker/haplogroup. IT IS NOT NECESSARILY JEWISH. It depends on the marker values which gives the haplotype. Just haplogroup doesn’t say much. Has your J2 been further classified if you have taken further tests ? Like for example J2a, J2b, J2a1, J2b2, etc… ?

    Post a Reply
  49. Dear Cyril Abraham,

    And yes, what about your matches ? How many markers did u test for ? What are the DYS values (marker values) ? Please read the above post too.

    Jackson

    Post a Reply
  50. Hi Jackson

    No, I have not undertaken additional tests (beyond the initial results).

    The Short Tandem Repeats (STRs) for all twelve loci examined are listed as follows:
    393/12, 19/16, 391/10, 439/12, 389-1/12, 389-2/18, 388/15, 390/24, 426/11, 385a/14, 385b/17, 392/11

    I’m not sure if these are the values you are looking for.

    Cyril

    Post a Reply
  51. Cyril:

    I dont know if u have already done the following, but I fed in your STR marker values on ‘ysearch’ (the most popular search site for genetic matches and genetically related people to u or any1 tested, based on STR marker values) and got around 101 matches though at a genetic distance of 2 and more. A genetic distance of 0 or 1 is worth considering, 2 and 3 is somewhat distantly related (depends on community and migration history too) and beyond that the unrelatedness increases and is irrelevant beyond 4.

    Almost all of these matches at GD of 2 and 3 are Europeans. There is no middle-eastern or jewish person in the list matching ur results, not even an indication. Most of these are J2b or J2b2. So ur J2 type may be if further tested be classified as J2b, which only a test can say. Also, since u have no matches to existing middle-eastern or jewish people in the ysearch database (where the project results results are pooled), its probably not a Jewish J2 or atleast doesnt match existing and known jewish J2 samples, but could be of a different origin. If ur lineage is unique due to unique STR values, then u might not get any matches, as u havent got any now, so dont worry. Dont conclude it as european either, as 12 marker values are not sufficient to conclude such things, if results are ambiguous. But that J2 is generally speaking “‘semitic” in origin is the only fact u can hold for now.

    U might contact the Syrian Christian project admin at [email protected] and ask for his advice if u wish to further dig more details as to what ur J2 says. U might be advised to join the project and transfer the results to the project. Then u might have to take more marker tests which alone will clear the doubts. I cant say on this. You two need to work this out.

    Hope that helped.

    Jackson

    Post a Reply
  52. Jackson:
    Thank you. No, I hadn’t fed the STR values. Coming to think of it, the NG Genographic Project did hit some “snag” with my specimen – which was not unusual according to them – but it resulted in some processing delay.
    I would probably get my specimen analyzed further.

    It was quite informative and interesting to read the details you provided; most appreciate your kind efforts.

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  53. In history we can see that people in low ladder of the social structure was trying to imitate the higher section by accepting their culture and copying their customs.( Eg. Last centuries the Muslim land lords of Pakistan Punjab claimed rajputs ancestry and now they are claiming Arabic /sayyid ancestry. And in kerala now all the low cast Hindus are doing rituals like sradham etc ) christens of kerala also no exception now a days they are imitating a lot of hindu customs ,now all most all of the claiming namputhiri or savarna ancestry . it is not true( it’s pathetic that the followers of Jesus Christ born in a family of artisan claiming the high cast birth). Now every body now that the first century AD there were no namputhiri or nair or the present cast system that existed today . these stories are based on margam kali pattu ( another imitation of mohiniyattam and panamkali) that written much later ( the Malayalam and the vattazhuth used in that songs are not earlier than 16th or 17th century. We know that Malayalam and the present cast system come’s around 7-9th century AD, regarding the song if you sang that song in public there will be communal riot sure it is saying that nairs are cremating the dead like “mean chudunathu pole etc and some other words also highly objectionable . Regarding the Jews ancestry among some suriyanis and the haplogroup present in suriyanis. That is true that the kannayi thoma and the converted jews in first century may contributed that. And the middle east origin and haplogroup like M17,M172,M173 etc present in namputhiris and nairs also. My cousin (a namputhiri) his test result is like this R1ai M168>M89>M9>M45>M207>M173>M17 and one another cousin (a nair) also M17 but one of my friend nair is M172.

    Post a Reply
  54. Dear Johm mathew
    In many history book it say as there was brahimns, and also says plenty of jewish merchant there at palayur and st thomas converted them a lot ..but i am not saying any statements they there was jews converted but it says in the book like that . and anywhere it does not say any jewish family as orgin instead a lot of syrian christian family history started out with brahimns converted. but it say there was plenty of jewish merchant and st thomas converted them a lot or may be i m thinkin still they became chrisitan and gone back to israel. sure lot of syrians landed and mix with some converts and it obviously evident in our community. if kanayas are syrians then i heard from them that they even have the blood of jesus means they say they are sort of jew/israelites. you know dont worry but i m mentioning some thoughts

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  55. Hello
    I have been researching into the syrian chrisitan history, online and through books, for the past few years, during my free time.
    I belong to a syrian christian family called Malayil [Punnakadu].We have been a family that has given many priests ad pastors to our scociety for a long time.My mother comes from a marthomite family,

    Even in this discussion forum, no one seems to have come to a conclusion about our origins.
    None of the information in the websites and books regarding our history and origin are conclusive or without dispute.i would be most interested in knowing about the thorough conclusions reached through this project, based on genetic investigations,I feel our past is important and our heritage shouldnt be ignored or belittled.Our unique culture should not disappear as we progress into the post-modern era.

    Post a Reply
  56. DNA test was conducted on Parayi petta panthirukulam who are the famous twelve castes borne from Pariah woman in Kerala.

    Mezhathol Agnihothri successors have L haplogroup, Pakanar successors have H haplogroup, Perumthachan and Naranath Bhranthan successors have R1a haplogroup, Akavoor Chevakar successors have 1b1b haplogroup and Vallon successors have J2 haplogroup. Study was conducted by Rajiv Gandhi Institute of Technology Trivandrum.

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  57. ravivarman thampi,

    Many people on this forum has already beyond the attitude you have mentioned. There are also many who aren’t. However, your point has been made a no of times on this forum. It’s redundant now.

    Hari Das,

    I have major doubts regarding this.
    - Are there any oral traditions for the castes to trace their ancestry to PPPK? I mean, how do they know the correct castes?
    - It’s surprising that for each tribe, samples belong to only one haplogroup. Such homegenity is rarely possible. Or have you misquoted the study?
    - All the tribes should have a single ancestor according to the fable. This is not consistent with the y-DNA results. Anyway as I said, the point regarding homgenity should apply here too.
    - It’s difficult to say what this study implies. Does it show the distribution of Brahmins (since the fabled male ancestor is a Brahmin) or does it show the distribution for the castes.?
    - “Akavoor Chevakar successors have 1b1b “. Did you mean R1b1? That would be most interesting since the haplogroup is rare in the Indian sub continent.
    - Most importantly, do you have any references or links to the study?

    Jackson,

    I have some comments related to the hypothesis we have made so far.

    Following is the current status of the Nasrani ftdna Database

    y-DNA (N=48)
    —————
    H: 4 (8.3%)
    J2:13 (27.1%)
    L :12 (25.0%)
    Q: 1 (2.1%)
    R1a: 12 (25.0%)
    R2 : 6 (12.5%)

    There’s a doubtful G(Stivadoros is not a Nasrani sounding name at all)

    mt-DNA (N=23)
    ————-
    M: 23 (78.4%)
    R: 4 (17.4%)
    U: 1 (4.4%)

    The E3b entry has turned out to be an H entry. It seems that the Ftdna site probably calculates haplogroup based on the haplotype proababilities first, and maybe defer actual tests later. Or, is it that haplogroup tests are not fully reliable? Just a doubt.

    My hypothesis so far.
    - At first look the y-DNA distribution is somewhat ‘Indian’
    - The mtDNA distribution is clearly ‘Indian’

    Why?

    H is Indian. It is true that H is found in lesser proportions in central asia, and even in lesser amount in south eastern europe, but rarely in other places. It should also be noted that the H of Europe is present mostly in Roma, a group with Indian origins. Of course the origin of H could be Middle East/Central Asia, however when I say ‘Indian’ it means haplogroups arriving to India before the early centuries AD. I’ll say non-Vedic/Vedic or Indus valley/Pre Indus when we need to differntiate along those timelines. I’m also isolating North East India who have unique mongloid haplogroups apart from common haplogroups with the rest of us.

    Now, H is also found across all castes, with a lesser proportion as we move north.

    J2 is Indian, but not exclusively. Found across all castes, but mostly in South Indian upper castes, West Indians and Pakistan. Now what seems to be unique with Nasrani J2 is the Cohen marker, which is the only genetic evidence so far. I suspect that J2 could very well be an Indus valley marker as far as India is concerned

    L is more Indian than J2, haplogroups like L3 being found outside India too, but India and Pakistan have the highest proportions of L. L is found across all castes, in proportions which only give vague conclusions.

    Q is not exclusively Indian, and is scarce in the sub-continent, however, there seems to be no much caste based differentiation. So Q cannot be judged as indicative of Jewish or Brahmin ancestry.

    R1a is a very widespread haplogroup streching from Scandinavia and Siberia across Iran/Central Asia till South India. A very controversial one, because of its possible and apparent links with the Aryan Invasion(Migration??) Theory associated with the Vedic civilization. From the studies of Sengupta, it is present in the highest amount in the North Indian Upper caste (45%), however, it is significant among south Indian upper castes (28%), and lower castes (24%). It could be quite possible that it was not exclusively brought to India by late migrations alone, but was also present with previous paleolitihic migrations. The presence of R1a need not be representative of Jewish or Brahmin ancestries. However, the R1a Levite connection is the counter evidence. But the Levite theory as I find it is muddled, not as clear as the J2 Cohen. If we didn’t suspect Levite ancestry, then R1a is quite Indian; Brahmin/not is a different question.

    R2 has a slightly similar story as R1a, with the exception that most of R2 is in the subcontinent, and is almost absent in Europe. Again there seems to be some scanty haplotype evidence for the foreign origin of Nasrani-R2s.

    - The combination (H,L,J2,Q,R1a,R2) is very much Indian and could be expected of a typical Indian sample, that is not to say that all of these haploroups are Indian but when you see all of them in a group, it is more possibly Indian than anything else. (Not considering J1 Muslims or O North East Indians)

    - It could be said that more research needs to be done in analysing Indian samples, however, certain things are conclusive even from the present research, like you would hardly find an H in an English population or that you will hardly find an R1b or I in an Indian population.

    - There should be some uniqueness for Nasrani population from the rest of the population, to have foriegn links , as far as haplogroups are concerned it doesn’t exist so far, but as far as haplotypes go it does, in the form of J2 Cohen. But I don’t see any other indian group with a large number of J2s to check whether it is exclusive to us. As you said earlier I’ll check with the project admin, but just speaking my mind.

    - Partially, repeating the previous point, at least one unique haplogroup should exist if we have to confirm some foreign ancestry. The E3b seemed to be one, but it now seems to be a case of false analysis.

    - I also want to make sure that we are not by any chance fleeced by FTDNA. These are captitalist companies; they might try to generate an artificial interest to get more tests done. FTDNA could be honest and fair, but just stating a possibility.

    It could be the case where our samples are not enough. But unless we are too diverse, they speak something about our ancestry. IMO, If we are waiting for testing a foreign ancestry that could possibly be less than 2% or something, it’d be a good idea to get tests done for families known to have unique phenotypes.

    Speaking of mtDNA, the combination (M,R,U) is very very Indian. My best guess is that we have little or no foreign ancestry on the maternal sides, otherwise we should see some unique middle eastern haplogroups here. I don’t think R will resolve to any of its descendants considering the high frequency of M (found in Indian and not in MidEast, true that M is there in China too, however, the subclades are unique to India)

    I’m sure that you will have objections here. But just putting arguments forward.

    Just think of this: How much is the probability that a haplogroup present in the Middle East, but not in the Indian Subcontinent, wouldn’t be present in an Indian population suspecting Middle Eastern ancestry.

    One of my assumptions for the above hypothesis is that
    - The genetics of Indan subcontinent would be largely determined by its natural boundaries (The himalayas, the Hindu Kush and the seas). (especially for the paleolitihic, before chariots were invented)

    Post a Reply
  58. ravivarman thampi,

    Many people on this forum are already beyond the attitude you have mentioned. There are also many who aren’t. However, your point has been made a no of times on this forum. It’s redundant now.

    Hari Das,

    I have major doubts regarding this.
    - Are there any oral traditions for the castes to trace their ancestry to PPPK? I mean, how do they know the correct castes?
    - It’s surprising that for each tribe, samples belong to only one haplogroup. Such homegenity is rarely possible. Or have you misquoted the study?
    - All the tribes should have a single ancestor according to the fable. This is not consistent with the y-DNA results. Anyway as I said, the point regarding homgenity should apply here too.
    - It’s difficult to say what this study implies. Does it show the distribution of Brahmins (since the fabled male ancestor is a Brahmin) or does it show the distribution for the castes.?
    - “Akavoor Chevakar successors have 1b1b “. Did you mean R1b1? That would be most interesting since the haplogroup is rare in the Indian sub continent.
    - Most importantly, do you have any references or links to the study?

    Jackson,

    I have some comments related to the hypothesis we have made so far.

    Following is the current status of the Nasrani ftdna Database

    y-DNA (N=48)
    —————
    H: 4 (8.3%)
    J2:13 (27.1%)
    L :12 (25.0%)
    Q: 1 (2.1%)
    R1a: 12 (25.0%)
    R2 : 6 (12.5%)

    There’s a doubtful G(Stivadoros is not a Nasrani sounding name at all)

    mt-DNA (N=23)
    ————-
    M: 23 (78.4%)
    R: 4 (17.4%)
    U: 1 (4.4%)

    The E3b entry has turned out to be an H entry. It seems that the Ftdna site probably calculates haplogroup based on the haplotype proababilities first, and maybe defer actual tests later. Or, is it that haplogroup tests are not fully reliable? Just a doubt.

    My hypothesis so far.
    - At first look the y-DNA distribution is somewhat ‘Indian’
    - The mtDNA distribution is clearly ‘Indian’

    Why?

    H is Indian. It is true that H is found in lesser proportions in central asia, and even in lesser amount in south eastern europe, but rarely in other places. It should also be noted that the H of Europe is present mostly in Roma, a group with Indian origins. Of course the origin of H could be Middle East/Central Asia, however when I say ‘Indian’ it means haplogroups arriving to India before the early centuries AD. I’ll say non-Vedic/Vedic or Indus valley/Pre Indus when we need to differntiate along those timelines. I’m also isolating North East India who have unique mongloid haplogroups apart from common haplogroups with the rest of us.

    Now, H is also found across all castes, with a lesser proportion as we move north.

    J2 is Indian, but not exclusively. Found across all castes, but mostly in South Indian upper castes, West Indians and Pakistan. Now what seems to be unique with Nasrani J2 is the Cohen marker, which is the only genetic evidence so far. I suspect that J2 could very well be an Indus valley marker as far as India is concerned

    L is more Indian than J2, haplogroups like L3 being found outside India too, but India and Pakistan have the highest proportions of L. L is found across all castes, in proportions which only give vague conclusions.

    Q is not exclusively Indian, and is scarce in the sub-continent, however, there seems to be no much caste based differentiation. So Q cannot be judged as indicative of Jewish or Brahmin ancestry.

    R1a is a very widespread haplogroup streching from Scandinavia and Siberia across Iran/Central Asia till South India. A very controversial one, because of its possible and apparent links with the Aryan Invasion(Migration??) Theory associated with the Vedic civilization. From the studies of Sengupta, it is present in the highest amount in the North Indian Upper caste (45%), however, it is significant among south Indian upper castes (28%), and lower castes (24%). It could be quite possible that it was not exclusively brought to India by late migrations alone, but was also present with previous paleolitihic migrations. The presence of R1a need not be representative of Jewish or Brahmin ancestries. However, the R1a Levite connection is the counter evidence. But the Levite theory as I find it is muddled, not as clear as the J2 Cohen. If we didn’t suspect Levite ancestry, then R1a is quite Indian; Brahmin/not is a different question.

    R2 has a slightly similar story as R1a, with the exception that most of R2 is in the subcontinent, and is almost absent in Europe. Again there seems to be some scanty haplotype evidence for the foreign origin of Nasrani-R2s.

    - The combination (H,L,J2,Q,R1a,R2) is very much Indian and could be expected of a typical Indian sample, that is not to say that all of these haploroups are Indian but when you see all of them in a group, it is more possibly Indian than anything else. (Not considering J1 Muslims or O North East Indians)

    - It could be said that more research needs to be done in analysing Indian samples, however, certain things are conclusive even from the present research, like you would hardly find an H in an English population or that you will hardly find an R1b or I in an Indian population.

    - There should be some uniqueness for Nasrani population from the rest of the population, to have foriegn links , as far as haplogroups are concerned it doesn’t exist so far, but as far as haplotypes go it does, in the form of J2 Cohen. But I don’t see any other indian group with a large number of J2s to check whether it is exclusive to us. As you said earlier I’ll check with the project admin, but just speaking my mind.

    - Partially, repeating the previous point, at least one unique haplogroup should exist if we have to confirm some foreign ancestry. The E3b seemed to be one, but it now seems to be a case of false analysis.

    - I also want to make sure that we are not by any chance fleeced by FTDNA. These are captitalist companies; they might try to generate an artificial interest to get more tests done. FTDNA could be honest and fair, but just stating a possibility.

    It could be the case where our samples are not enough. But unless we are too diverse, they speak something about our ancestry. IMO, If we are waiting for testing a foreign ancestry that could possibly be less than 2% or something, it’d be a good idea to get tests done for families known to have unique phenotypes.

    Speaking of mtDNA, the combination (M,R,U) is very very Indian. My best guess is that we have little or no foreign ancestry on the maternal sides, otherwise we should see some unique middle eastern haplogroups here. I don’t think R will resolve to any of its descendants considering the high frequency of M (found in Indian and not in MidEast, true that M is there in China too, however, the subclades are unique to India)

    I’m sure that you will have objections here. But just putting arguments forward.

    Just think of this: How much is the probability that a haplogroup present in the Middle East, but not in the Indian Subcontinent, wouldn’t be present in an Indian population suspecting Middle Eastern ancestry.

    One of my assumptions for the above hypothesis is that
    - The genetics of Indan subcontinent would be largely determined by its natural boundaries (The himalayas, the Hindu Kush and the seas). (especially for the paleolitihic, before chariots were invented)

    Post a Reply
  59. Just one more argument, according to DNAPrint genomics India is 60% European, 25% Asian(Mongoloid-A), 9% Native American(Mongoloid-B) and 6% Sub Saharan. They do the analysis per person based on ‘autosomal markers’ (I don’t really knwo what that is; however, it seems the proportion of ancestry per person can be found using this)

    In my analysis this is somewhat consistent with the haplogroup proportions of India

    mt-DNA
    M: 60% (Mostly proto Mongoloid)
    R+U: 25% (Mostly Caucooid))
    East Eurasian haplogroups: 5% (proto Mongoloid-A/Mongoloid B)
    West Eurasian haplogroups: 10% (Caucosoid)

    y-DNA
    F and its descendants except Q and O: 95% (Mostly Caucasoid)
    Rest: Q, O and C 5% (proto Mongoloid-A/Mongoloid B))

    Just to say that the vaguie consistencies b/n the results could be an indication of at least a vague consistency of the researches on Indian samples done so far.

    If you have any links to new research papers related to my previous posts please give links.

    Thanks

    Post a Reply
  60. Well i am still thinking that we have that west asian influence clearly evident in many families. There were many immigration happened from West asia. I truely believe that those jewish population might have attracted st thomas in here and the king were welcoming and giving priveliges to the chirsitans.
    In order to prove.. do we have jewish presence we need such a ydna result in the community and that is how it can confirm it. I see most of the syrian christian families believed that they have a history of st thomas are seems middleastern like or semitic like to me than we say we all are kerala converts. But in a way i would say they can be some brahimn converted but what i m trying to say is that now all are middleastern like. They can be some or more converts by st thomas or syrian missionaries converted em but most of em melted in the semitc populations . yes there can be still a lot of other ydna other than west asian dna can be found but if we look the person he could be more to the west asian side in our syrian christianity. if i could be completly brahimn or nair means i should be in that community and my mother should be nair/namboothri my wife should be nair/namboothir and my generations should maintain like that in order to be claim like that. but that is not happening in our syrian christian community. syrian christian culture and community is more to the suryani like and people eating habits. we can barely or few things compare things to the hindu sides. i used to think we are just like indian populations as hindus just converted to christianity by an apostole or missionary but now i m thinking it not quiet right but still an acceptable statement.The possible reason for all these is that there can be also a majority of chrisitan from anthioh came to malabar different perod of time and their presence being stronger and we had west asian contacts and bishops even if some denominations accepting it or not. Perhaps there nairs or namboothirs converted now enter in to a majority of middleasterners started to blend in . A nair conveted guy might have married a middleasten based women thus guess what what kind of child borned. Again things began to change now there is not much namboothris or nairs can be trace among the crowd unless i know that i was a brahimn and i married a brahimn converted woman and my genereations which is not . Therefore that is the reason people are now more influenced to middleastern because of these influecnes in our community although their dna facts are different . i dont know about kana but most of the members r middlestern like atleast some features is there may not because of they are truely pesian through their ydna or mtdna but these shapes and features and charasterics distributes among the syrianchrisitian community

    Post a Reply
  61. Its quet true that lot of westasian immigrants had inculturation that many taken local or dravidian wives hence their generation mtdna can comes different . that does not mean their westasian influences is not on them , though these they did not mean to keep their orginality but they wanted to be like that. Or some west asian tried to maintiain their identity . and those families members might have selected to become bishops .Hence we the syrian christians have more dravidian influences than any thing. i dont think that there was nairs and namboothris at the first century because i believe the term namboothri is recent. but there can be some vedic brahimn converted or few such families converted , but that does not mean that syrian chrisitan identity is all about nairs and namboothris converted. this is pretty much the facts that i believe. if there was such a mass populations of brahimns converted it should have been reflected in many ways. looking deep in to the dna facts are confusing and it does not get you anywhere.

    Post a Reply
  62. Dear SV (applies to All) ,

    “My hypothesis so far.
    - At first look the y-DNA distribution is somewhat ‘Indian’
    - The mtDNA distribution is clearly ‘Indian’” — Your comments

    Kindly DO NOT make such hypothesis. All that you “intepreted” are flatly and totally wrong and misleading to a lay reder. Both the ydna and mtdna distributions are NOT Indian. Few among these samples ‘may be’. And genetically speaking there is nothing called ‘exclusive Indian’. Read more…

    Examples of wrong interpretations/understanding from your side:

    1. “The combination (H,L,J2,Q,R1a,R2) is very much Indian and could be expected of a typical Indian sample, that is not to say that all of these haploroups are Indian but when you see all of them in a group, it is more possibly Indian than anything else.”

    Wrong. Genealogy/Community genetics for origins are NOT studied or understood this way by grouping haplogroups or just looking at haplogroups. They look at HAPLOTYPES and MATCHES and MUTATIONS at individual markers which is typical of certain population groups. Then the sample under study is cross-compared to the ‘existing database’ to suggest origins. This origin suggestion may not be perfect in rare cases, based on community history, data and facts with “substantiated traditions”.

    2. Your derivations on the origins of various hgps. like H, J2, R2, R1a/R1a1, Q and L (those seen in our database as of now) are again wrong. H is NOT Indian ‘in origin’. It is yes, ‘by presence’ largely found in the ‘Indian sub-continent’ and also across the Middle-east, Central Asia, North Asia, etc. Its origins are still UNKNOWN because of its extremely rare presence (less than 2% of the world population). So hrly any data is available. You can be sure on this.

    About the J2 in our database again u are completely wrong in saying its origins and contributions to our community. R2 is again present across Central Asia, Middle-east, Caucasian (specially Armenia), Iran (quite common), India. Its origin is like R1a’s.

    Now as for the R1a1 samples in our database specifically. I have told a thousand times on this forum before, they are NOT the typical or even closely Indian-type of R1a. And most of them are the Eastern European related R1a (which is R1a1). Most among these are the R1a1 Ashkenazi Levite EXACT matches (with same mutations). So as u stated, its not a “hypothesis”. Its a fact found and publicly seen and can be verified by anybody (Help ? Ysearch.com). The non-levite R1a1 matches are close to the other non-jewish east europeans and NOT the Indian-type R1a/R1a1.

    Q is Central Asian/ East Russian in origin. Q1a3 (found in our database) is particularly not of Asian origin nor Mongoloid. Thus a migrant foreign contribution. Please read up more.

    L is NOT exclusively Indian. Whatever paper or website said this is either outdated or least factual by research standards and data today. L’s origins are debated just like H. It is also found in India but is said to have been introduced in India like H from Middle-east or Iran. The Middle-eastern origins of L (L1 and L3) are substantiated because of its higher presence in Lebanese, Druze, Iraqis, Iran, Yemenite Jews, Afghanistan, Pakistan more than in India. Sengupta et al. is an old paper I too have read and genetics has come far beyond that stage with better standards. National Geographic’s haplogroup migration data describes this that both H and L are an early yet foreign migratory group into India (though not all H’s and L’s). L3 is particularly middle-eastern. L1 is also found in the middle-east. So saying its Dravidian is not food for rationale or 21st century scientific logic. Or it could be its presence among the Dravidian groups is because they too are one of the earliest migrant groups from the middle-east into India, thus carrying these haplogroups, mixed with the Australoids and still other earlier groups. We arent going that back in history for studying our community origins which are relatively recent.

    3. “Speaking of mtDNA, the combination (M,R,U) is very very Indian. My best guess is that we have little or no foreign ancestry on the maternal sides, otherwise we should see some unique middle eastern haplogroups here.”

    Again wrong. What are u studying combinations for ??? New technique to me. M* haplogroups is a very wide haplogroup seen across Central Asia, Middle-east, East Europe, Russia and the Indian-sub-continent. The East Asian (Mongloid-type M groups split out long back during migrations and are unique to them). So ours are not the Mongloid type nor are they found yet in our database. I cant even understand how u concluded they are “Indian” when science doesnt say so.

    R* type mtdna is Near-Eastern in origin and contribution (Near East spans area from West Asia to North India). One of our R samples is a step mutation away from HV* type mtdna which is again not at all Asian or Indian. Others are well different too. They need to be further classified which the individual test takers need to be doing.

    And yes. U haplogroup ! U say its Indian ??!! This is probably one of the most surprising result in our database. It is not any U. It is U1a and U1a is not found at all in the Indian sub-continent, except for in the Chitpavan Brahmin community who also have recent foreign contributions to their gene pool. U1a is typically called “Una” by scientists and a marker of West Asians and/or Caucasians. Read up the different U type mtdnas and u will learn more. Its U7 and probably U5 thats more Indian (seen in upper-castes in India).

    4. “Just think of this: How much is the probability that a haplogroup present in the Middle East, but not in the Indian Subcontinent, wouldn’t be present in an Indian population suspecting Middle Eastern ancestry.” (Your comment)

    If ur asking this based on mtdna result then yes. Its Highly probable. If u have understood the passing down of mtdna, then u must also know that mtdnas have chance of been “virtually lost or missing” from a community. So suppose, initially while founding, the members of a community had say HV* type mtdna but this community mixed heavily (meaning take local wives in this context) with the locals among whom they had settled, then over a period of time the initially present mtdnas would be gradually getting less frequent and ultimately non-existent over a period of time based on amount of local mixing. mtdna has this characteristic of been lost thats why. Ydna does not , because it passes uninterrupted from father to son for almost a wide timespan unless najor mutations take place and haplogroups change which is rarest possibility in fact. Yes there may be a mismatch in a marker or two value even between father and son if both tested (but not in haplogroup). This is due to mutation simply.

    Well, I do not understand why is something so very typical “middle-eastern” as regards to ydna except for ydna haplogroups like the J (J1 and J2) and E. And yes, the project is just at a member count of 50 or so. So no conclusions yet as stated there too. Only trends. And something also found in India as elsewhere doesnt make it a property of India exclusively. And genetically speaking “India” is a contribution from outside gene pool sources over varying timelines. “Indians” fall under the Caucasoid race. Then individual communities may have different contributions as the case may be. There are just three sub-divisions of the human race – Caucasoid, Afroid, Mongoloid, scientifically. Then sub-racial scientific theories like Caucasoids further categorized as Mediterranean, Semitic/Armenoid, Baltic, etc… Again these sub-races fall under either of the 3 main race branches. This is science. Now whatever “Caucasian” means to people today is recent invention by political idiots for supremacy theory who link Caucasian=White. Intellectual Garbage. No further comments on this.

    As for the E been classified as H. That happens after the haplogroup is confirmed by SNP testing when doubtful. However, this E which is now H (Kuttikadan) is not a typical H haplotype. It just carries the mutation for a H haplogroup. But the marker values it carries is unique (unique haplotype), so it has a very different origin or lineage. As I said H itself is rare, so its debatable for now. That again disproves H haplogoup has a single origin limited to a specific region. I have confirmed this with the H haplogroup project admin (this is a different project by ftdna itself).

    To All,

    I have elaborately described all of this in various posts on this forum itself as to what the Nasrani database possibly imply from results available so far. Please find and read them up before bringing newer hypothesis. And please, this is too exhausting to repeat the same thing again and again for individual hypothesizers. And further clarifications, contact the project Admin who might be more informed than me.

    Thanks

    Post a Reply
  63. Dear Jackson,

    the idea of kerala syriac-christians is okay,as many thought of it before.but we should also see that the chithpavan brahmins for sure and the kokanastha brahmins
    also are of west asian orgin.

    \”chitpavan brahmin demonstrates younger maternal component and substantial paternal gene flow from west asia, thus giving credence to their recent irano-scythian ancestry from mediterranean or turkey, which correlated well with european-looking features of this caste. this also explains their untraceable ethno-history before 1000 years, brahminization event and later amalgamation by maratha….. for y-chromosomal polymorphisms, the frequency distribution of 10 y-haplogroups: h, r1a1, r1a, r2, l, j2, c, k2, p* and f* was determined. r1a had very high frequency (32%) in chitpavan-brahmin from “konkan” as compared to <=5% in other castes. indianspecific r2 and l accounts for 29.4% dhangar and 17% chitpavan-brahmin chromosomes respectively……mitochondrial dna diversity in 77 individuals as one haplotype each was shared within maratha and chitpavan brahmin respectively. m lineages had frequency of 67% in chitpavan-brahmin. the other south-asian specific diverse sub-clusters of r and u were also frequent in chitpavan-brahmin (84%). neolithic migration and very recent western influence was seen more (14-15%) in chitpavan-brahmin and desasth-brahmin than the other two castes (maratha and dhangar)…….. haplotype diversities were highest (1.000 ± 0.017) in dhangar and desasth-brahmin while haplotypes were shared within maratha and chitpavan-brahmin. the studied groups did not share haplotypes among them…..”

    the researchers give following conclusion

    “chitpavan-brahmin and desasth-brahmin constitutes just 10% of entire populace (~80 million) of western india. their different marriage rules, varied customs, different local dialects (southern branch of indo-aryan language) illustrated distinct origins. our extensive comparative analyses support their different ethno-histories. the y-chromosomes of marathi speaking desasth-brahmin carried r1a1 lineage in high frequency, which reflected their considerable affinity with central asian giving credence to their “scythic” descent (admixture, pc plot, amova analysis). their intermediate mtdna diversity comprise of low frequency west-eurasian clades and significant paleolithic gene pool (m) indicating south-asian ancestry, which provide evidence of their tribal origin due to upward social mobility of females as shown by study of baig et al. (2004). these brahmin subjects presented highest number of biparental alleles, heterozygosity and genetic affinity with central asians. these analyses provide evidence of “scytho-dravidian” genesis of desasthbrahmin. they are the ancient upper-caste comprising of 50 sub-divisions or “gotra” because the considerable time-depth as inferred from tau value, helped them to consolidate their predominance in different administrative jobs besides traditional priesthood.

    conversely, non-recombining uniparental contributions in chitpavan-brahmin mediterranean or east european type as shown by 20% (hv, u3) mtdna lineages and highly frequent (r1a and l) y-haplogroups. the admixture and pc analyses reflected genetic association of chitpavan-brahmin with iranian, ashkenazi-jews (turkey), greeks (east europe) and to some extent with central asian turkish populations elucidating their distinct nordic, “scytho-iranian” ancestry. the caucasian link of chitpavanbrahmin has also been inferred from biparental microsatellites variations. the observed genomic analyses asserted the ethnographical fact that chitpavan-brahmin share ancestry with conspicuously european-looking pagan or alpine group, who under religious pressure had migrated from anatolian turkey or east europe to gujarat coast probably via sea-vessel. besides, their documented history is untraceable beyond 1000 years, further indicating that they were not part of the original vedic migrations (early indo-european) on the west coast. therefore, the present genome analyses provide conclusive evidence of their recent migration, genesis, and expansion after they migrated from “sopara” (india’s western trade zone) to geographically isolated konkan-region, where they adopted “konkani” language, and cultivated cash crop. their considerable genetic affinity with maratha caste further corroborated the prevalent norm that few of the dynamic and intelligent chitpavans were “brahmanized” for performing religious rituals in king shivaji’s court. we observed 15% similar hvs -1 sequence motif (m4 lineage) between chitpavan-brahmin and bene-israeli (or indian jews), probably suggesting similar indigenous paleolithic contribution. compared to desasth-brahmin, kokanasth-brahmin showed lowest biparental diversity, younger age of population based upon tau value, larger genetic affinity with west asians plus east europeans suggesting their recent descent, in absence of bottleneck effect. however, recent marriages between desasth-brahmin boy and chitpavan girl have contributed towards their genetic affinity”

    other research in genetics of chitpavan brahmins state as follows

    “the origins on the maternal side (mt-dna) are equally surprising. unlike most other indians whose maternal origins can be almost exclusively traced to the single macro-haplogroup m (mt-dna), studies (kivisild et al. 2003, gaikwad et al. 2005) indicate that the chitpavan gene-pool shows the presence of various other central asian and european mt-dna haplogroups, in particular, the u (mt-dna), h (mt-dna), hv (mt-dna), x (mt-dna), r* (mt-dna), and n1 (mt-dna) haplgroups. on the paternal side (y-dna), r1a (y-dna) is the most frequently found haplogroup. incidentally, this haplogroup is also commonly found amongst north indians (sahoo et al. 2006), central asians, and east europeans. the rate of r1a is also high among south indian castes such as pallars, kallars, yadavas and sourashtrians as well as among tribals such as badagas. the origin of r1a or haplogroup m17 is debatable as either southern central asia or south asia or western caucasus or eastern europe. oxford university geneticist stephen oppenheimer has come to the conclusion through his genetic findings that “south asia is logically the ultimate origin of m17 and his ancestors”, and that “one estimate for the age of this line in india is as much as 36,000 years old” (see haplogroup r1a (y-dna) ). the presence of a deep common ancestry between these regions remains a puzzle to this day. haplogroup j2 (y-dna) is another frequently found haplogroup considered to be of middle-eastern origins and found in a lot of higher-caste indians. there is also a significant presence of haplogroups r2 (y-dna), l (y-dna), and h1 (y-dna) which are believed to be of indian origin and dominantly found in western and south indians (sahoo et al. 2006). based on the current evidence therefore, it does seem then that the aforementioned racial characteristics can be most likely traced to their maternal side.”

    so even the namboothiri caste have come from maharastra and gujrat.the name nambootiri were given to them by perumal kings by 9 century denoting that they came by nayambu=boat/row boat and thiri-which is an official suffix for thirumeni or extreme lordship.

    as a small community with just the senior male marrying they never intermingled with other brahmin or priestly communities to keep the wealth given to them.which have eventually destroyed them.

    also the iyengar/iyer brahmin community has south asian and south east asian dna,does that make them low caste.certainly not.as when the brahmin caste were made up many were initiated and given priestly class.see,world was not made as or in the caste structure as we see today.the chera dynasty were vellars/vellalars meaning people/lord of the spear.they were an ancient khsatriya class in kerala.buut as namboothiri came in and they brought the present nairs from ahichatra-an ancient town near rampur in u.p.they made up the royal and ruling class of kerala.they plundered buddhism and brought in brahmincal hinduism,with advent of shankaracharya thus was in the pinnacle form.

    so let us see as an aryan dynasty people mixed up with dravidian people.

    Post a Reply
  64. dear all,

    Well what all might say,its hard to swallow that syriac christians of kerala are jewish.firstly if so like the knanaya people the jewish would have certainly kept the link alive with them in most ways.the syriac liturgy was introduced much later by the 3-4 century manicheans in the form of the chaldean rite.we should understand the whole st.thomas christians were under the chaldean bishop based in thrissur who was under persian-baghdad patriarch.its was only by the arrival of the portugese and then the alleged synod of diamper.the church broke later to be one under rome as latin catholics.the other under the syrian patriarch of antioch.so it is wrong to say just as st.thomas christians followed syriac liturgy they are jews is just absurd.latin rite is spread all over the world that just doesnot mean all over they are all ancient latin people from europe.or are the roman catholics more roman across the world.the case of tamil iyers speaking the language and others.they all came jusy a few centuries back.we should take into the account that the official langauage of travancore kings and court was tamil till about 1900\’s.the language malayalam eventhough formed its existence by 825 ad,it devoloped into a full language only by the 12-14 th century after the nampoothiri brahmins brought the bunts and the subcaste matrilineal nairs from ahichatra-near modern rampur,u.p. to help them as landlords and rulers/chieftains in present day south canara/kerala.do they speak hindi or garwali or any north indian language.
    the ancient rulers of kerala-or chera vamsham were vellars/vellalars along with the present day ezhavas,the term chokon denoted for them comes from the term soldier.the famed unniarcha,aarromal chekavar,chanthu chekavar are all from this community.do they speak ancient tamil or else anything.

    why this is elaborated is that they were all buddhists,all major temples in kerala are said to be earlier buddhist temple except guruvayoor.ancient kerala till about 9th century shaivite revival and the great shankaracharya \’s clout on kerala soil.all buddhist temples were called palli,as you know they were all learned very high thrissur,malapuram,alapuzha were all seats of high learning by buddhist centers.they were a peacefull community and they openly agreed theological interventions.the ancient great brahmin prime minister kautilya is said to be from kollam in kerala.

    the about the jews accepting jesus as their saviour messiah in a far off land from jerusalem in india after being persecuted by the jews who saw him alive is a bit hard to digest.the converted jews came as groups from west asia many times eventhough we just keep record of the knanaya\’s.

    later by 4-5 century,9 century,11-12 century also many came along with various bishops and patriarch\’s.there is also a version that says the arrival of mar sabrisho and mar piruz to kollam in kerala was to establish the first full church of kerala at thevallakara as all others were temples and half hindu.as this was marked as the beginiing of the kolla varsha or the malayalam calendar.

    the ancient church in kerala was more of an extented ancient indian hindu religion.the term hindu is/was more of a country denoting term untill the britishers came and ruled india.
    their is some proof to say that the ancient church as it was called \”issaniya sampradaya \” as it had more of the brahmin converts than any others.it was as such till about 12 century.only after the portugese arrival by 15th century did we have the present so called european church equivalent.

    the family names like pakalomattom means p akal om mattom -people who had authority of surya and om and mattom,that is worship,religion,god and markets/courts.

    kalli,kallinkal comes from the ancient kalli worship,shankarapuri comes from family who had authority over shiva temples.the if we look into the migration of the pakalomattom and other families to south,they came to the places that had or were part of the 64 brahmin gramams blessed by sage parashurama.be it aluva,angamaly,kudamaloor and of course ettumanoor which is very near to kuruvilangad,a place where most st.thomas christians fine their lineage.till about the 1930\’s many pakalomattom families had priviledges in temples to do thaila purification as thailashanthi\’s,it was a good omen to make them do that by many royal and namboothiri familes across kerala like in royal families of panadlam,thiruvalla,anaparmapal-alapuzha,thripunithura.all this would have been only possible due to brahmin orgin or no one places them on par with kings/brahmins.pakalomattom family were fully veggetarians in many places were they had temple links till about a century back.still some among the pakalomattom are still vegetarian and follows strict nampoothiri customs,ways of life on par with strong christian faith.its a topic not to be discussed on net.

    brahmin or royal standards for st.thomas christians.anyway not of semitic orgin which was a taboo for brahmins.also the customs of st.thomas christians were same as those of namboothiris in almost all ways till about a century ago.or else st.thomas nazranis will have to be a ruling class for the brahmins to adopt it in ancient times.which might not be possible as they as vedic purohits are very strict.

    there is also a version that says mahabali was an christian emperor.
    the harvest festival -onam and mahabali chakravarthy was a title not a name for ancient kings of malabar.the all people are one and equal in all ways in god and world-can be a kingdom of god concept after christ\’s resurrection by the early christian church.if thats so why did holy roman emperors been so rude and power hungry.did the 1 st century to about 6-7 century have christian kings in malabar who encouraged jewish migration for the love and respect for jerusalem.the ancient brahminism was a sole religion that had been along with the buddhism in kerala,karnataka and konkan.the term hinduism and other castes and formations came much late.mahabali was basically based in konkan he was stepped down by the vamana-the vaishanava invaders from north india to present day kerala.so the was the whole western india once christian or st.thomas christian.only gods knows.

    okay thats about the st.thomas conversions in palayur there were many others in nirnam,kokkamangalam-paravur,nilacakal,kollam.they can never be jewish as no jewish colonies existed there. some historians have the view that st.thomas selectively converted local ruling familes which were mostly brahmin as they were very highly learned in vedas and ancient scriptures,more theologically inclined and they also waited earnestly for a messiah-the prajapathy as said in the vedas. the sacred thread ceremony can also be compared to circumcision as both make children new born or dwija.the anthropologists have the view that they were a same tribe that broke about 5000 yrs back in iraq-iran .the abraham\’s children went west into west egypt and israel became jews while the other children went into turkmenistan-afghanistan to be brahmins..king dushyanta\’s and shakuntalas son became emperor bharath who ruled from uzbekistan-persia-afghan to the deccan and indian ocean which made migration into south india much easier.

    as the research into the tomb of jesus in kashmir takes new light.many antropologist-historians by proof say abraham and sarah is indeed brahma and sarasvati.maybe true or false,god knows.there is also a view that siva linga is/was a black stone venerated by west asians 500o yrs back and also also denotes the single pole cross jesus was crucified.so are the saivites true folowers of christ.a matter of debate and prayers.

    many indian brahmins have west asian dna which may prove the aryan invasion theory true.especially western indian brahmins like the chitpavan and kokanastha brahmins.

    chitpavan brahmin demonstrates younger maternal component and substantial paternal gene flow from west asia, thus giving credence to their recent irano-scythian ancestry from mediterranean or turkey, which correlated well with european-looking features of this caste. this also explains their untraceable ethno-history before 1000 years, brahminization event and later amalgamation by maratha….. for y-chromosomal polymorphisms, the frequency distribution of 10 y-haplogroups: h, r1a1, r1a, r2, l, j2, c, k2, p* and f* was determined. r1a had very high frequency (32%) in chitpavan-brahmin from “konkan” as compared to <=5% in other castes. indianspecific r2 and l accounts for 29.4% dhangar and 17% chitpavan-brahmin chromosomes respectively……mitochondrial dna diversity in 77 individuals as one haplotype each was shared within maratha and chitpavan brahmin respectively. m lineages had frequency of 67% in chitpavan-brahmin. the other south-asian specific diverse sub-clusters of r and u were also frequent in chitpavan-brahmin (84%). neolithic migration and very recent western influence was seen more (14-15%) in chitpavan-brahmin and desasth-brahmin than the other two castes (maratha and dhangar)…….. haplotype diversities were highest (1.000 ± 0.017) in dhangar and desasth-brahmin while haplotypes were shared within maratha and chitpavan-brahmin. the studied groups did not share haplotypes among them…..”

    all,after all even the darwins theory of evolution says man first walked the face of earth or evovled in east africa.very close to west asia.so if we go on analysing the dna all people of afro-asia at least may have a single parent.

    after all we cannot assume gauthama buddha’s brothers family who ruled nepal never had buddhist links.but as of now they are a kshatriya clan.that is how things change over a period of 500-1000yrs.we have 2000 yrs of tracing.
    lets us be practical in all ways.

    before we stop something much interesting to many on the dna hunt.

    let us see another important point.during prime minister margaret thatchers rule suddenly britsh royal family’s-present,the house of windsor-orginal name house of saxe-coburg and gotha-name changed due to anti german sentiment during world war by king george v in 1917.

    united press international
    october 10, 1986
    moslems in buckingham palace

    mixed in with queen elizabeth’s blue blood is the blood of the moslem prophet mohammed, according to burke’s peerage, the geneological guide to royalty. the relation came out when harold b. brooks-baker, publishing director of burke’s, wrote prime minister margaret thatcher to ask for better security for the royal family. ”the royal family’s direct descent from the prophet mohammed cannot be relied upon to protect the royal family forever from moslem terrorists,” he said. probably realizing the connection would be a surprise to many, he added, ”it is little known by the british people that the blood of mohammed flows in the veins of the queen. however, all moslem religious leaders are proud of this fact.”

    brooks-baker said the british royal family is descended from mohammed through the arab kings of seville, who once ruled spain. by marriage, their blood passed to the european kings of portugal and castille, and through them to england’s 15th century king edward iv. ‘

    thats what we told we can be cohens and brahmins now st.thomas nazranis.
    godbless you all.

    Post a Reply
  65. Dear Jackson and all,

    Let me take this time to thank all of you for a great debate like this.The dna does not prove anything as of such in the present way.but more into dna classification.as of now none of st.thomas christians that have cohen or j2 are not jewish.sorry,live with it.latest findings.

    The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH)
    Haplogroup J is a subdivision of F and is part of a grouping that includes haplogroups G, H, I, J and is prominent in the Caucasian Mountains, in the Balkans (hg G), amongst Middle East Peoples (hg J), some Indians (hg H), a portion of the Scandinavians, Germans, Bosnians, and Sardinians (hg I).
    About 40% of Jews are haplogroup J.
    The CMH is a subgroup of haplogroup J.
    Even though J accounts only for 40% of the Jews as a whole it reaches more than 80% amongst the Cohanim.

    The Jewish population is divided into Cohens, Levites, and ordinary Israelites who amongst the Jews are mostly from Judah and Benjamin.
    <>

    The Cohens are descended from Aaron the brother of Moses. They are the Priestly Caste. They were originally part of Levi but today they are perhaps more numerous than the Levites are. They also have an entirely different genetic structure from the Levites.

    There are “Ashkenazic” (European) Jews and “Sephardic” (Mediterranean and Eastern) Jews.

    Haplogroup J consists of an ancestral form (J*) and two subgroups J1 and J2.
    <>

    <>
    <>

    The CMH is a subgroup of haplogroup J.
    Although you can have the CMH in either J1 or J2, it is the genetic signature in J1 that is considered the Jewish priestly signature.

    <>
    48% of Ashkenazi Cohanim and 58% of Sephardic Cohanim have the J1 Cohen Modal Haplotype (Skorecki et al. 1997).

    To sum up, about 40% of the the Jews are hg J (both J1 and J2) whereas for Cohanim the figure is ca. 80% out of which about half (ca. 40%) have the CMH whereas for Jews who are not Cohens only ca. 3% have the CMH. Most Cohens who are J1 are also CMH wheas most non-Cohen J1 Jews are not.
    Does CMH Define the Cohens?
    No.
    About half the Cohens do not have CMH and CMH is also found in other peoples.

    CMH Amongst Non-Jews
    Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin
    “Are today’s Jewish priests descended from the old ones?”
    HOMO: Journal of Comparative Human Biology – Zeitschrift fuer
    vergleichende Biologie des Menschen
    51:2-3 (Urban & Fischer Verlag, 2000): 156-162.
    Zoossmann explains that:

    * The Cohen modal haplotype is the most common haplotype among
    Southern Italians*1, Central Italians*2, Hungarians*3, and Iraqi
    Kurds*4, and is also found among many Armenians*5 and South African Lembas*6. .

    cf. J.E. Elkins
    <> An Updated World-Wide Characterization of the Cohen Modal Haplotype. J.E. Ekins et al.

    Is the CMH the result of a one-time only mutation (UEP, Unique Event Polymorphism) as conventionally explained?

    The CMH CANNOT BE the result of a single event but can only be explained as a recurring phenomenon effecting a change that after taking place is passed on by hereditry. It mainly takes place within haplogroup J but in 3% of the cases has also been recorded outside of it.
    To explain how this could be so we must clarify the difference between haplogroup and haplotype.
    Haplogroups are determined by SNP (pronounced “snip”) while haplotypes are defined by STP.
    <>.

    In principle STPs have a faster rate of change than SNPs which are considered more stable. Different STPs may therefore be found on the one SNP. Different STPs define Haplotypes whereas differences in the SNP define the Haplogroup. Haplotypes should therefore be considered the same as subdivisions of Haplogroups. The problem is that the same Haplotype is found frequently in more than one Haplogroup. Haplotypes are transmitted by hereditry but they are an example of a typical REP (Repeat Event Polymorphism) that can occur more than once and in more than one context. They are an example of Identical Genetic Change that occurs in more than one place in more than one subject amd then are inherited and can be used to trace ancestry. Since the same changes however occur in other bodies their applicability is limited. If we knew what influences the occurence of the changes we could use the hereditry aspects. If for instance we were aware that groups within a certain area at a certain time were liable to have undergone the said changes when we later find these changes in other places we could assume that their ancestors had formerly sojourned in the affected regions at the time in question. This however would not be enough to determine hereditry though it could lead in that direction.
    The CMH is a haplotype that occurs in J1, J2, and elsewhere:

    <>
    An Updated World-Wide Characterization of the Cohen Modal Haplotype.
    J.E. Ekins et al.

    Placing the occurrence of CMH outside of J to the side for the moment and concentrating on its occurrence only in J1 and J2 Giacomi made a proposal that superficially could explain the occurrence of CMH in both J1 and J2.

    <>

    Giacomi says that the CMH gave rise to J1. If this were so it would explain perhaps how CMH could be found in both J1 and J2. The explanation could be explained as saying that originally there was J2. CMH emerged as a haplotype in J2. From the CMH variety of J2 emerged J1. Originally all J1 would have had CMH but something happened, J1 changed and produced varieties mostly without CMH. Nevertheless CMH remained as a sub-group in J1 and also as a sub-group in J2 from which it had originally emerged. This scenario is a bit far-fetched and even Giacomi probably would not agree with it. It is however the only way the presence of CMH in both J1 and J2 can be explained while preserving the principle of it being the result of a one-time only event. The problem however is that CMH is considered YOUNGER than both J2 and J1 and therefore could not have fathered “J1″.

    From: Dienekes Pontikos
    The CMH can arise on a J1 and a J2 background independently. In addition to the CMH, there are numerous other haplotypes shared by both J1 and J2, and there is no reason to believe that the CMH in particular was the ancestral haplotype of haplogroup J. Actually, it was almost certainly not, because the CMH has a long DYS388-16, and ancestral J almost certainly had a short DYS388.
    What Does the CMH Really Tell Us?
    Question: We have seen from the above that CMH does occur at a much higher frequency amongst Cohans than amongst others. You have shown that CMH is also found in non-Jewish people. You have also shown that not all bearers of CMH are necessarily related to each other in anyway.
    What is then is significance of CMH concerning Jews or people who think they may be Jewish?

    Answer: CMH is more likely to appear in hg J (especially J1?) than in other haplogroups. Once CMH appears it is transmitted by hereditry. Since Cohens are the most likely to have CMH when CMH is found amongst Jews there is a higher than average chance that the Jew is a Cohen.

    Assuming that our figures are correct if ca. 6% of Jews are Cohens and half of them are CMH then ca.3% of the Jews are CMH Cohens. We also understand that 3% of Jews who are not Cohens are CMH. If therefore we come across a Jew with CMH there is a probability factor of one out of two that he is a Cohan against a chance of 3 out of 100 when we do not know if he is CMH or not. In other words, half the Jews with CMH are Cohens and a Jew with CMH is ca.17 times more likely to be a Cohen than a Jew without CMH.
    We can go further than this. Half the Cohens have CMH. Jews who are Cohens are aware of the fact because they have a family tradition that they are Cohens. There are however numerous reasons why this tradition would not always have been kept. We can exprect to find Jews who are Cohens and not aware of it. The number of Jews who are not Cohens (as far as they know) with CMH equals the numbers of Cohens who have it. It could be that many of these non-Cohen CMH Jews actually had a Cohan ancestor. Within Jews we can assume that CMH is particular to Cohens or almost so. Since twice as many Cohens as “Israelite-Jews” are hg J and half of these are CMH we are justified in regarding the CMH in Cohens as emerging amongst the Cohanim some time after the designation of their forefather Aaron the first Cohen! This explains why about half the Cohens are not CMH.

    CMH is a haplotype that emerges spontaneously and after emerging remains to be transmitted by hereditry. This means that all Cohens who have CMH could be related to each other but CMH in non-Jewish peoples in most cases could be an independent phenomenon.
    When CMH is found amongst non-Jews it does not indicate that the person has Jewish ancestry. If however additional evidence is available the presence of CMH may have some supportive value.

    By analogy if ca. 14% of Irishmen have red hair versus only ca.7% for the non-Irish inhabitants of Glasgow, Scotland, and 10%(?) of Glasgow is Irish when we find a red-haired person in Glasgow there is (all other factors being the same) one chance in five (instead of one chance in ten) that the person is an Irishmen. This does not mean that all red-haired people are related to the Irish since not all red-hairs are kinfolk to each other even though red-hair is often an inherited trait.
    Conclusion:
    We see from the above that DNA changes take place spontaneously and repeatedly under certain conditions.
    DNA haplogroups therefore have only LIMITED APPLICABILITY in determining common ancestry. They do however have some pertinence since once the DNA changes take place they are transmitted by hereditry. DNA may be able to tell us which groups of people were in the same areas at the same time and subject to the same influences even though they were not necessarily related to each other. More study on these matters is required.
    The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) demonstrates the use of DNA by possibly helping us to trace who is a Cohen within the Jewish Community. On the other hand the CMH also exemplfies the limitations of DNA studies when we find it appearing independently amongst other peoples and with no ancestral connection to Israel.

    LET US BE PROUD IN WHAT WE ARE NOW IN LORDS NAME.

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  66. ok let me tell my small ideas that i felt.
    brahimn orgin what you are saying can be true and it acceptable
    but it the matter to know many were used to say we are of ton of brahimn or nair converted which is wrong.
    yes my friend the he still maintain a close frendship with jews who left isreal , from those jews he is giving us sureity that there were many jewis converted and they were the first christians.
    yes st thomas also converted some brahimns families there is noting wrong to accept it
    it is hard to believe there was an established hindusim caste system in deep forest area todays kerala in bcs
    there was many trade ship came murisis for israelites roman phonicians arabs etc.
    there is no proof of knanaya thommen to say recently named knanayas are the exact decendents
    instead there is immgrations happend bar yeshu, mar sabor iso and mar proth, knanaya tommen, jewish immigraiton etc
    many experts giving surety that there where no such special communiites exist in the past
    one mentioning kanayas of cocubine communities of syrians prbably of knanay thommen group or later immigrant that accendently had contact with some fair skinned lower cast women
    and these generations revangeous to the nasrani community and kept their syrain blood pure as much they can over centuries
    many sryian or jews much later mixed with local and indianised
    this elder a close friend of mine in california and confidently speaking of ancient nasrais that all were one long time ago. shemayil ninnum achen vannu means bishops often came from syria and conduch holy qurbana. they often reached malabar through arab ships and they also brought famlies
    he is very well aware of his past with armeanian immigrations
    know that syric transilated to malayalam only in recent centuries before all were in full syric and they were converts but most were members had connection to syrc language and orgin
    and all experts /histrorian accepting that some of the vedic brahimns converted and there can be converts but later on many westasian immgrants joined and mixed with these chrstians and hence many of them has clear jewish westasian orgin though their yside still others are influenced to west asian and syric through these influences in these syrian christrian community

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  67. Dr. Saj Pakalomattom,

    “LET US BE PROUD IN WHAT WE ARE NOW IN LORDS NAME.”

    And what are we according to you ? Syrian Christians ? Agreed ! So…. from Syria ? Not exactly. Then what ? Brahmins ? Namboothiris ? Nairs ? etc etc ? Not entirely, not even close. I am not an adherant of “brahmin stories” nor of “jewish stories” or any puritarian claims. We are a multi-ethnic community and this is a historical and now a scientific fact !! Accept it or reject it, your choice. Because none of them as puritarian claims, cater to my logic or senses. So I’m over it. And I dont think I have to be “proud”, unless I contribute something towards the community’s betterment. Being “proud” about one’s ‘ancestry’ is something not fitting for the 21st century society. That era is gone. Nor do I say be ashamed of anything. Just lets not overdo it. Now the debate…….

    CMH (Cohen Modal Haplotype) is NOT the same as actual Cohen haplotype. Lets get this clear first.

    I did say earlier, what I had to comment has been commented in great detail. They are unfortunately scattered on various other threads becoz of questions being posed there and this thread being relatively new. Please read up. No repitition, no corrections on what I had been commenting on NSC wrt the DNA project outcome for almost a year now. Some of the earlier bloggers here might be well aware of what I was talking and still am.

    Finally, I see you are “Pakalomattom”. Probably thats a reason for your strong objection to known facts and proposition of some other “hypothesized facts” supplied by “Namboothiri stories”. Im not against these stories. They are simply good to hear and makes my head swell for a minute and thats all it does for me. And I simply dont understand ur descriptions by quoting from various papers. Fortunately they support what the project also says as of now. Sorry for my lack of understanding.

    And since you are from the Pakalomattom family, your best option to get “your facts” aligned with facts now known in research circles, is to contact the DNA project administrator Mr. Jacob Manakalathil who also is of Pakalomattom heritage and has undoubtedly proved to be a J2a4h Cohen (for heaven’s sake, NOT CMH). His email id is up on this page. Go ahead and propose your theories to him and let us all then know if that convinces you at all.

    For additional information, this “fact” (which is not convincing to u) that (a percentage of) Nasranis have got the actual J2 Cohens among them and NOT just the so-called CMH (which is just a 12-marker modal as u elaborately described) has been verified, tested and confirmed by the existing Jewish (Cohen) researchers and related project persons and Family Tree DNA institute. This is not a hypothesis any longer nor awaits anymore confirmation. It is well known now to the above described people. So its not something coming as stories from someone or from some books. So people dont need to sound frustrated.

    Go ahead, hear it yourself. And if all this sounds rubbish to you still, we have got many other topics on NSC to discuss and debate. Leave the genetics part to the persons concerned. You have the democratic liberty to dismiss it as nonsense. Many Thanks and Good Luck with your quest.

    Jackson

    (@ All, P.S.: KIndly read the various threads and comments on NSC related to any particular topic, esp. this topic of DNA and stuff, to see if the answers to your questions are already out there. It isnt very pleasant to repeat the same thing discussed and stated many times, and waste everyone’s time and NSC’s space, here. Then, if still not convincing, contacts are provided for verification. If nothing convinces, then there is no point of debate. Thanks.)

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  68. Dr. Saj,

    And yes…. Blue blood in England and Mohammed’s contribution, Tomb of Jesus (stupidest *story* of all), Abraham and Sarah being Brahma and Saraswati, Mahabali and Onam, Nairs coming from Uttar Pradesh, Gautam Buddha’s life history, etc. etc. are neither topics of my interest nor sound sensible to be discussed here or funny to be laughed at.

    And about Chitpavan Brahmins (also called Kokanastha Brahmins)….. we arent discussing about them either. I know very well about that community, their genetic profile, customs, traditions and have close friends from that community. Lets not bother them anyway.

    Im out of such debates.

    Thanks again.

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  69. Actually haplogroup R is believed to have originated in India according to newer genetic studies. So is R1a, if anything ancient Indians migrated to Europe.

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  70. great work guys ….

    I see some people have boasted about some jewish connection to our community, which i strongly suspect. However my family (vettikunnel) comes out of one of the four brahmin families (pakalomattom) who got converted by St Thomas. But instead of desperately trying to prove our history to others i believe why dont we get united (like the jews) and help out anyone and everyone in our community. ( i suppose thats the first symbol of having a little jewish blood .. i mean unity).. As far as i have seen we are least united. More over we fight on silly issues. (Mostly faught for some greedy priest or high priests to keep the church and its huge earning under their control.) But we as the educated and intellectual generation of our community, we must strive to reduce these fights and unite ourselves. We can start with making this website a much better one with user logins and a bigger database so that we can post useful stuffs for others in it.. Like some good job vacancies or posting some good intellectual stuffs.. We can even share our achievements in different areas. (even our expertise). We can even make a list of all the great achievers in our community and also strive harder to be one and make our people proud. (trust me we have great achievers in our community when compared to any others).I hope my words makes sense for most of you here or else please excuse me.

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  71. From my point of understanding, the Jews arrived in Kerala well after the demolition of their second temple around 70AD or even latter in the 4th century. Trade was flourishing between India and the middle east even before Christ. Unlike today, the trend was reverse, there was shortage of professionals in Kerala /India. Labour was brought from the middle east. St. Thomas was hired as a carpenter to work for the kings.

    During the time of Christ even Afghanisthan was part of India. Taxila and kandhahar mentioned in Hindu epics are in today’s Afghanisthan which was ruled by the vedic Kushan kings then. King Vasudeva 1 was the prominent among them. St Thomas is said to have visited the Kushan courts and that of “almost lost from history” king Gandhoporous, now in Punjab. Recent excavation of some coins proved his existence.

    The seat of the brahmanism was today’s Afghanisthan and parts of Persia. The fire worshipping parsi community was based in todays Iran. The brahmins were inspired by some of the customs of Parsees like wearing of the sacred thread, marrying with the fire as the witness,etc. The brahmins/Afghanis are thought to be the lost sheeps of Israel by some. After the inquisition of Islam, the brahmins and the parsees were forced to flee to India and south India in the eighth/ ninth century. so the chances that St. Thomas would have converted some brahmins in Kerala is a remote chance unless some brahmins who have come to Kerala for trade. The chances are that he could have converted some Jains and Buddhists. There were plenty of Jain temples at that time. Suthan Battery, Waynad Dt. boasts of one such old Jain temple if I am right. Fish was the symbol of Christians at that time may be because some of the followers were fishermen. The St. Mary’s church Niranam had a Jain temple in the vicinity it seems.

    Yuz Asaf or St. Josaphat a catholic saint of the first century hails from today’s Afghanisthan/Pakisthan and is laid to rest in Roz Bal, Srinagar. His guru is Barlaam who is said to have converted him. Barleem and Josaphat can be found in famous literary works. Some Ahmedi Muslim believe that St. Josaphat is none other than Christ himself who survived crucifixtion and preached in India before dying in Srinagar. The Ahmedis are not accepted by other Muslims. At that time the Syriac christians had reached Kashmir, Leh, Laddakh, China and even Mongolia. The Catholic church dates St Josaphat to 4th century. You can find the Syriac Christian community in Tankse village, Ladakh even today. St Thomas could have made mutiple visits to India. St. Bartholomew had also preached in India.

    Syriac language is not from Syria like most people think. The actual word is Syriac. Thereby Syriac Christians. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke and Armaic is not a dead language, it is still spoken in some parts of northern Iraq and Syria. The land between the Tigris and the Euphrates is Mesopotamia, the land of the Babylonians, Assyrians and the Chaldeans. They are all related to each other. There was a great kingdom of Assyrians starting somewhere around 600 BC and reined until the beginging of Islam. The Kingdom covered the mediterranean regions starting from Libya to Persia. The Assyrians are mediterranean caucasoids. They were good in trade and commerce. It was these Assyrians who traded with Kerala, migrated and settled in Kerala around 200BC . So we are Assyrians not Syrians. Assyrians are fair skinned. Gee Varghese spelt Giwargis is a famous name among Assyrians.

    Nineveh was the capital of Assyria. St.Thomas’s remains were taken to Edessa near here by a merchant. You can find Nineveh in the old testament. Assyrians are devout christians even today. They are persecuted every day in Iraq. Of the 1.4 million population 50% have already migrated to the west.

    Once Islam spread along with Arabic, Syriac lost ground. St. Thomas spoke Syriac and is believed to be Assyrian. When christ was preaching in and around Jordan word spread in Kerala of a messiah who had come and were eager to meet him or to know more about the message he was preaching from God. Jesus died early and went to heaven. So the apostle came to Kerala on an invitation, he converted his own people first and not the Jews. Along with him came about 72 families comprising about 400 people.

    The early churches had the synogogue like appearence inside the church and the people were half Jewish by nature which the Portuguese disliked and wanted to convert them to the western rite. (They suspected the worship of other spirits with similarities to the Holy Spirit ). This happened at the Synod of Diamper 1699 in Udayamperoor near Tripunithura, Ernakulam Dt. The church was divided into the Jacobite church (from which the Marthomites and Indian orthodox were derived) and the Syro Malabar church. The Syriac Christians filled the gap of Vysias in Kerala. After the Namboodiris came to Kerala, came the Nairs from Ahichaitra near todays Nainital/UP. The Chera Kings lost their supremacy. The Namboodiris or Kerala brahmins took the chance to fill the void. The remaining Nairs or serpent worshippers migrated to Bengal and to today’s Nagaland, the land of serpents. Today 91% of Nagas are christians. Some Nairs and Namboodiris may have converted duely after many centuries but defintely not in the first century.

    Conclusively, a DNA test of the Syriac Christians shall be matched with the Assyrians to prove the link. Most of the Syriac christians married among fellow Syriac Christians so not much dilution can be felt. The Assyrians do not claim us one among them but they suspect some ancient link. We are St. Thomas Christians to them.

    Comments and objections are welcome for my blog.

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  72. Actually Syrian Christians seem to be a mix of J2, L, H, R1 and R2 mainly. However the sample size might be too small to make a judgement. Here are the family tree dna results. More dna tests will have to be conducted to see if there is a influence from middle east. There appears to be considering the high amount of J’s compared to the local population. Lot of the J’s that have a detail test done seemed to be grouped in J2a4 which seem to be at a higher concentration in middle east. Nonetheless more detailed tests will have to be done with a huge sample size or more people will have to sign up for tests in family tree dna.

    R1 – 25%, L – 25 %, J2 – 25% , R2 + H – 25 %

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  73. Thankyou Mr. Kezhakken. So we have atleast one R and one H. If I am right the R haplo group hails from Assyrians, Babylonians & chaldeans. The assyrian migrated to the north into Armenia and Georgia. So Armenians and Georgians can also belong to the same group. Knayi Thomman was an armenian merchant. There were Armenian/assyrian settlements in Kerala too. If you can narrow into the area between Kodungaloor and Trichur you are definte to find more west asian roots. There once existed a canal which connected Kodungalloor to Kannankulangara in Trichur town. This route had speciality in trading gems and precious metals. India was the only source of diamonds until 1895. The spitoon used by the Zamorin kings was made of solid gold. This prompted the visiting portuguese to guess the riches India held at that time giving interest for further visits accompanied by military. The Armenians / Assyrians had legal trading rights in may of Indian kingdoms including the Moghul kingdoms. The chances that the existence of copper plate inscribing trading and settling rights is pretty high. The church that exists in Fatehpur Sikri now in UP, the seat of Mughal Kings is Armenian built during Akbar’s period. One of the wives of Akbar was christian Armenian.

    We can find more traces of Namboodiri/some of the Indo-Aryan J2G? lineage even in Dravidian communties of Kerala & Tamil Nadu. Similarly in the Syriac christian communities we can find plenty of Dravidian lineages. Marriages were conducted selecting the family names in order to avoid this mix up of ethinicity. Unless everybody joins the genealogy project we cannot put together the complete picture. Lots of caste issues in the country can also be solved to a large extent.

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  74. Dear joseph parecattil
    There are plenty of confusions in these immigration matter. i m just sharing those which knaya thommen brought people from syria and many of them were from jerusalem too. some say there was another armeanian immigration to kerala. mar sabor iso and mar afroth mass immigation to qulion believed to be assyrian babloyanian..some say these were actuallly persian nazranes( jewish exile in babalyon) migrated. yes sometimes say knaya thommen was an armenian merchant. also people talk about the jacobite recent immigration from syria that we laterly got the west syric liturgy and in the past we been using east syric nestorian syles. so when jacobites arrive recently then actually we have a chance of arab christians or syrian people got malabar… and i think from that connections of these forefatheres had some extra contacts of marriages the knanaya orginated which i m only thinking for myself and i m not saying this as a clear history. so on that way we cannot think we had west syic liturgy and syian people got kerala and knanaya thommen connected to that seems not quiet true. knanaya people think any of these that they we people from juduea and they r from the south of isreal something which all we hear the stoies in different times. and i think few brahimns families might have joined to nasranis and i was thinking these brahimsn mixed in to these semitics and yet we all have dravidian influences. it believe to be many forefather were from populated mixed keralites jews joined to nasranis also at early times. the dna r joined to the assyrian project mr alexander exactly matches to me and ours family history says brahimns converted from kalliankavu and the branches spreaded out. but i believe many elders in my hometown ranny look like persians may be assyrians but not quite syrians or arab christians. but my mother family looks like they are more arab christians or sryians.

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  75. Hi Joseph,
    Looks like I was not clear (blunt) enough. Our genetic results are strikingly *different* from the Assyrian results. It is extremely unlikely that we are the same (or even related) population.

    The Assyrian project has three Syrian Christians from Kerala, who knowingly or unknowingly joined that group.
    N38706 – Alexander (R2) : Location is shown in the map as Kerala, India. Also his mtDNA result is M. He is clearly a Keralite Syrian Christian.
    148762 – Muringan (H) : Self evident.
    N23437 – Joseph (L) : Knanaya. This already discussed in the forum. This L (like other Knanaya Ls) has the DYS marker 385a as 7. I do not want to troll, but as per YHRD, such results are found in South India, Sri Lanka and Malaysia , under populations classified as Dravidian. The last two are known to have significant Tamil population. No L result with 385a as 7 has been found outside these regions.

    Having said this, we also need to remember that the main Haplogroups are very old, much older than the existing national, linguistic or ethnic groupings. That is why you would often find multiple haplogroups in the same population. The FTDNA page for India has almost every other haplogroup in the world. Hence, the importance of sub-haplogroups, haplotypes and the DYS markers.

    Please see
    https://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=4484

    NB : There is another R2 result (Birko) classified as “Unassigned”. Birko is an Assyrian name (or surname).
    thanks,
    Kezhakken

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  76. Mr. Kizakken you are right! M is there most parts of the world. L can be found in Ethiopia and the Arabian Peninsula as well. The reason it is found in the Malaya Peninsula is the trade that was between Arabia and the Malacca straits. It is also found in India. H is noble and royal. H is found in Europe also. M is also found among Dravidians because the Dravidians took the sea route to come to India. The ancient tamil texts silpathigaram and manimehalai quotes about a place called Thenmadurai which consisted of 12,000 streets now sunk under the Indian ocean between Somalia and the Kerala coasts. No one knows how old Tamil is. It is but the oldest living language today. Dravidians are no ordinary people. They are very practical people. May be due to the suppression they look ordinary now. The haplotype L 385a is also found around the arabian gulf.

    I think the Armenian settlement in Kerala is none other than Ranni. (Only I think!) The next nearest settlement is Chennapattana or Chennai. Though the number of Armenians has reduced to a handful in Chennai, they are still there in Chennai. The Armenian Church still functions at Armenian Street near Parry’s in the port area. The Armenians were the much sought after business men by the nawab of Arcot which is also near Chennai. The Armenians could be the care takers of the grave of St. Thomas. The grave was in not so far away Mylapore. The famed San Thome church stands on the grave site. The Portuguese were stunned to find the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore. The Portuguese is said to have built the San Thome Church. They also bullt the old Velankanni Church after the aparition of St. Mary near Velankanni. The Amenians and the Assyrians were all in touch. The remains of St.Thomas were taken to Edessa by a merchant. Hardly 10 family names exist in India.

    Knaya means merchant, Knayaya may be for merchant community. Knayas are like our Vysyas. The church worship of Armenians along with their cousins Assyrians, Nestorians, Chaldeans, Jacobites, etc were Jewish in nature. Like the icon of burning bush of the Jews, the twelve tribes icon were part of their church settings. The Nestorian belief was different. They believed that Jesus was born human and became divine after the baptism. He died on the cross and never rose again!?. His soul alone went to heaven!.

    The dropping of surnames by Knanaya community and taking Malayalam surnames made it difficult for identification. Definetely their looks are stunning. If a DNA database of the Armenians are available it is worth comparing with the Knanayas to identify their actual surnames. “If not we can strike out this possibility”. The thekkumbars and vadakkumbars are references for south and north of Kerala and not south and north of Judea. The vadakkumbars may be the Trichur nasranis and businesmen who do not mix business with charity. The Trichur nasranis also look different in a different way. Both are fair skinned. Some say there was also a wave of warrior class Nair conversion in the 10th century mostly in parts of Central Travancore. It may be the reason for the fair skin of some native nasranis. Later to increase the numbers there was plenty of conversion from the native Indians. This mix brought about a super breed of Kottayam nasranees. The rift among the churches today is attributed to the warrior blood in them reported a newspaper in 2005.

    Look at the trail of the Aryans starting from India to Germany. You will not find even a single remarkable historic monument. There was war everywhere. They were at each other’s throat and dynasties were destroyed. They couldn’t build a stable government anywhere. I do not take any pride in saying that I belong to the Indo- Aryans even if I was an Aryan convert to which most of the upper caste in India belongs. Hitler, the Aryan wanted to build a world empire for Aryans, the third Reich. He wanted to achieve what the Romans, Greeks & Egyptians achieved. The subject of racism was started by the Aryans. They cannot live in harmony with themselves and with the other ethnic groups. Millions of people died in the Second World War. They were not as brainy as the Anglo- Saxon even though the Anglo- Saxons hail from Germania. The majority of the Indian Aryan descent is from the Asia minor or Turkey. The Swastika was the symbol of the Hittites of Asia Minor. Today the Brahmins are different; they eat and drink what they are not supposed to do. They do jobs which are not improper to their clan. The Brahmins do not wish to stay among Brahmins and would rather like to mingle. Some Brahmins even do not wish to give their identities as Brahmins. Definitely I too do not wish to say I was converted from Brahmins if at all I were. Some people in Kerala take pride in it.

    The Assyrians were powerful people until they worshipped their Lord Ashur. The crescent and star symbol which is being used today by Islam once belonged to the Assyrians. The persecution they are suffering is never ending some say they wish to go back to their old lord.

    The Armenians came to India well before Christianity. The passing army of Alexander gathered troops in Armenia on their way to India. If an army can travel well over thousands of mile it would have been a superhighway of that time. No trouble in Armenians coming to India. Surat was a gateway harbour for the Armenians who came by ship from Persian and Chaldean ports. The first visit of St.Thomas was by ship to an utraceable city called Andrapolis. Andrapolis may be on the mouths of the River Godavari or near Guntur, Andhra Pradesh because there was a surprise find of Telugu Jews in Andhra Pradesh. They spoke Judeo Telugu like our Cochin Jews who spoke Judeo- Malayalam. Judeo Malayalam had more Tamil words than Malayalam because Tamil was the lingua franca of Kerala then. The Tamil used was ‘Vengala’ Tamil or SenTamil. Likewise St. Thomas could have travelled through the Persia- Baluchisthan route taken by the Alexander Army to Punjab. Even today there exists a Greek Village in Malana in Himachal Pradesh with its own autonomous government called the Republic of Malana or Little Greece. They have a president and a prime minister too. They were left behind by Alexander’s Army. So the westerners coming to India and having settled in India is no great news and that they have settled in Kerala is a not miracle. India was a land of asylum seekers and there are plenty of asylum seekers among syriac christians.

    The family Tree DNA project should be made very lucrative and easily accesable in India. When more people join the rates may come down. Hope it can have a center in Kerala. People of Kerala are very proud to say they are from the family of St. Thomas or the first converts. Looks like there will be lots of takers for the project.

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  77. Joseph Parecattil:

    You mentioned the conversion of Nairs to the Syriac Christian community in the 10th century. Could you please provide the source from where you got this? I’m very interested, especially, since in Jornada there are references to close relations between Nairs and Nasranis.

    (Although, I think much of what you wrote belongs to the realm of historical fiction. E.g., this notion of the Aryans migrating from India to Germany. As well, your disparaging of “Aryan” culture is also interesting: I don’t think you can compare the fruits of “Aryan” (or more properly old Indo-European) culture with those of any other culture in the world. The various philosophical and scientific schools of thought from India, Iran, Greece and Rome are unparalleled in their depth and sophistication, Although *perhaps* not as old as the Semitic cultures of Mesopotamia and Egypt, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the old Aryans were a very bright group of people who are largely responsible for the vast bulk of humanity’s most worthwhile and permanent achievements. I like the Assyrians, etc., but there’s no way they are even in the same league as the Indo-Europeans.)

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  78. Mr. John Mathew,

    In 2005 when there were lots of trouble in the orthodox churches, The Indian Express had come out with an article and cited the reason for the indifferences. If you have access to the archives of Indian Express somewhere between June 2005 and September 2005 you are likely to find in one of their supplementary pages. The Ezhavas also belong to the warrior class. They were experts in Kalari. It is said that some Ezhavas converted to Christianity, Buddhism and even Sikhism to avoid suppression Later the Buddhists and the Sikhs returned to Hinduism. The Ezhavas also share their occupation with Gounders of Tamilnadu, Gouds of Andhra pradesh and Gowdas of Karnataka. Plenty of Nairs have dual faith today and do not wish a conversion. Many believe that Jesus is an avatar of Viswanathan, the Almighty.

    Now about the Aryans. As an author to the blog I cannot desparage anybody. I should tred the middle lane and shouldn’t be racial/fanatic. The First World War defeat of Germany was the reason for the Second World War. Germany was ridiculed with the technological advantage of the British, the Battle tanks were introduced then. Hitler felt that Aryans did not make a mark in the world and believd that he can achieve militarily and technologically. But could n’t. Because he was in a hurry. The Atom Bomb was still on the drawing boards. The Americans finished completed them early. Many of the techniological changes we notice today is German. The Americans and the Russians shared the German scientists after the war. The Jet Engine was invented by Germans. Now where is the desparage? One should look at the final outcome. Did they rule the world? No! They lost the war and the allies became more powerful with their inventions. The Americans police the world today. There is a gypsy clan in Germany today called the ‘Sindhis’. They speak Sindhi! Certainly there was a migration of Aryans between Asia and Europe. They are big losers. The other word for Aryan is Iran! But the Britishers are mean. They have a reason to be proud and they are proud people. They even call their own country GREAT as in GREAT BRITAIN! The German Aryans invented all except the RADAR during II world war. Today I am an arduant admirer of Germany and I use plenty of German products. The Germans came a long way in a short time from the time they were called Barbarians to the technological advanced Germans today. The majority of scientific publications are in German today. There was migration from all directions. There are caucausian lineages even in the P*r*iah and P*ll*n communities of Tamilnadu and Kerala. They share about 10% lineages with the Iyers and Iyengars of Tamilnadu!!!! Definietely some threads lie within Syriac Christians also because of mixed marriages. The Assyrians were no match to the Europeans.

    More interesting facts about Assyrians/Syriac speaking people come from Kuruvilangad in Kottayan Dist from the church of Martha Mariam Catholic church. There stands a second century cross. These are the inscriptions on the base of the cross;

    In punishment by the cross (was) the suffering of this one;
    He who is the true God, and God above and Guide ever pure.”
    My Lord Christ, have mercy upon Afras son of Chaharbukht the Syrian, who caused this cross to be cut.”
    May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    More interesting wordings come from the cross at Kadamuttom church in Ernakulam district from where tha famed “kadmuttathu katthanar” hails from.

    I, the beautiful bird of Nineveh has come to this land. , who was saved by the Holy Messiah from misery.” Written by me Shapper.

    Nineveh was the capital of Assyria.

    The church belongs to the Oriental orthodox. There are plenty of proof that the Assyrians/Armenians were the original people who settled in Kerala before christ. and not Jews or Jewish converts or Brahmins. The Brahmins if at all they were converted they could have been converted after the ninth century after their arrival in Kerala. St. Thomas had been to today’s Afghanisthan/Pakisthan as well as Kerala, Tamil Nadu( Chennai) and Andhra Pradesh (Andhrapolis!). A cross similar to the kadamottom and Kuruvilangad was found in Taxila (Thakshashila), Afghanisthan.

    So we have the Assyrians/ Armenians, Persians, Indo Aryans and Dravidians among Syrians christian churches today. When the British left India, the WASP churches or the White Angle – Saxon Protestant churches were handed over to the Native Indian caretakers of the church like the chefs,gardeners, bell tollers, etc. who formed later the CSI church and their north Indian counter parts formed the CNI church. (No harm intended). The natives can never become the members of the WASP churches because they were highly racial. The Marthoma Church is an Indian protestant church formed by the grace of the British taking advantage of the quarrel among the various orthodox factions. Due to this similarity as protestants, there are plenty of marriages taking place between the Marthoma and CSI church members. But I do not understand how the Othodox and Jacobites also marry the CSI and the Marthomites. The Jacobites and Orthodox are not protestants. If the Jacobites-Orthodox marry the Marthomites it can be termed at least as blood brothers and sisters since the Marthomites had broken away from the Jacobites/Orthodox. So we have the main source of mix from the native Indians to form a super breed. There is one more king of Super breeds- The Pentecosts. They have members drawn from all churches. The Catholics, Knanaya. Jacobites, CSI, Hindus and who ever can be termed Keralites. I met a person who boasted himself as “Syrian Pentecost” Now how can we term the Syriac Christians by Ethinicity – It is a “Couldron full of Ethinicities”. An Assyro-Aryo-Dravidian commuinty. In more perfect words “An Avial” That’s the reason why Keralites may be a super breed of smart and efficient people. In more ways “over smart”.

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  79. Sir,

    Your statement ‘…Today I am an arduant admirer of Germany and I use plenty of German products..’
    shows the immaturity level you are in. German products are great. But wait until you get slapped or killed by a German because your teeth is too yellow or that your skin is not white as his. Kindly remember to tell him then that you are his great admirer. Your emotional level of maturity is like that of a 10 year old boy.
    I am glad that you clearly stated that Assyrians and Armenians and Persians were the founders of the Syrian Christians of Kerala and not the Jews.

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  80. Sir,

    Your statement in earlier post ‘..H is noble and royal…’

    Where are you from? Are you in kintergarten?

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  81. tamil iyengars also have j2a as the predominant haplotype.does that have any relation with j2 found in syrian chrisitians

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  82. J/J2 is interesting for a variety of reasons.

    First, J2 is apparently found in Dravidians because the Indus Valley civilization (according to some theories) was founded by a hybrid group of peoples that included Ls and Js (ref: the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis). What makes this even more interesting are the purported similarities between the old Sumerian language and the Dravidian language; Fr. Placid had written an article to this effect, and you can see it in: (1) “Ur” being a word for place found in Dravidian and Semitic languages (e.g., “Ur of the Chaldees”, “Ur of Peace— Ur-Shalem, or Jerusalem, Trichur, etc.), (2) Eno/En (I), (3) Ama, Amo, (4) Apa/Aba, etc. So J2 in our community could have come via native sources (Dravidian ancestors) or foreign sources (Jews, Assyrians, and North Western Persians).

    Second, J2 is also found in some “Aryans” of India due to the various Central Asian immigrations that may have occurred to the North of India (e.g., during the close intercourse between India and the Persians, Kushans, Bactrians, etc., during the small centuries BC/AD, or during the various “invasions” that happened in the early AD centuries). And these immigrants may have eventually percolated on down to the South. The Iyengars are Brahmins (“Aryans”), right? Perhaps their J2 comes from this route.

    I think someone with more genetics understanding could comment on the exact nature of the Iyangars with respect to the Nasranis. I personally don’t think there would be much of a connection, because I strongly dispute the fact that Brahmins would have ever converted to Christianity (except perhaps during the last few centuries, when some reports of this seem to have occurred). It doesn’t make sense.

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  83. I agree, it makes no sense for St. Thomas to come to India to convert Indians and teach them Aramaic. His mission was to spread the word of Christ to the Jews first and then to the gentiles. St. Thomas went from the Middle East to India. My hometown of Niranam was visited by St. Thomas and is where he founded one of seven and a half churches. We know that he went to the locations where there were large Jewish communities. Niranam did have a Jewish trading community back then. My dad also told me that we have Jewish ancestry after asked him. It makes a lot sense considering the fact my dad looks Middle Eastern. I also wanted to know where the name Kourth comes from because it’s a very rare name in Kerala. Kourth is a common name in Greece and my dad’s family has that name. I know that Kerala traded with Greece back in ancient times and there were Greek settlements in Kerala. Can someone help me out with finding the origin of the name Kourth? I don’t know if I had any Greek ancestors in the family tree. The more history unfolds, the more complicated genetics will be.

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  84. To those who may be interested:

    During my recent trip to Kerala, I picked up a fascinating book from the Nudumbaserry airport bookstore: JESUS LIVED IN INDIA (His Unknown Life Before and After the Crucifixion), by Holger Kersten, published by Penguin Books, India : ISBN 9780143028291. It yields an understanding of this man’s teachings like none other. Enjoy!

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  85. @Michael Varghese

    Kourth and Kourti are Greek last names or surnames. They are NOT first names among the greeks. It is not uncommon to have Greek names among Nasranis. Its the influence of Greek and Greek Christianity on Eastern Christianity in general if I’m not wrong. Even the Jews had Greek names like Paul, Peter, Andrew, Stephen etc. Doesnt neccesarily mean there were Greek ancestors in the family. Most probably a cultural influence on Syriac Christianity, as Greek Christianity is also Eastern Christianity. It may also be a rare name which many Nasranis are not using anymore. Changing times.

    So names like Paulose, Kurialose, Pathrose, Sebastianose, Kuriakose, etc are purely Greek. I couldnt find the meaning of the surname Kourth/Kourti though. As we know, many last names have no meanings if they have abstract origins or derived from place names, etc! Cant help more on this for now.

    Thanks

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  86. RE: Kourth, etc.

    Does anyone know what Kourth is supposed to mean with the Greeks who use that name?

    Pathrose, Kurilose, Kuriakose, etc., have well-established Christian traditions from the Apostles, Fathers, Martyrs, etc. But Kourth seems like an odd name. If it is truly of Greek origin (that is, if it’s usage in India is from some Greek origin) then it is likely only of late origin. That is, it is unlikely that the name is in Malabar due to some ancient migration of Greeks to India. We have had many such immigrations to Kerala from various populations, and in general most of the ethnic stuff gets lost (e.g., lost at the Persians and Assyrian/Arameans who’ve migrated to Kerala … do you see any Persian and/or Aramean names currently in use in India? Nope!).

    Moreover, if the name came to India a long time ago, then we’d see it in a lot more people than just one family.

    We do know that some of the West Syriac fathers of the Puthenkoor (e.g., Mor Baselios, Mor Ivanios, etc.) were reputed to come with Armenians and Greeks. At least that’s what some of the later writers like Whitehouse, etc. claim.

    Could the name Kourth (again, if it truly is of Greek origin in its usage in India, and not just some standard Indian butchering of another name like Korah or Koruthu) be from them? Michael, what do you know of your family history? Any priests?

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  87. RE: Kourth, etc.

    I don’t know if they might have butchered another name, but I know that people in Kerala have misspelled names in the past. My great grandfather’s name was Kourth Varghese, my grandfather’s name was Geevarghese Kourth, and my dad’s name is Geevarghese Kourth Varghese. The name Kourth has been passed down, but I don’t know anything before my great grandfather. I asked my dad about the name and he said that it wasn’t a common name. He also told me that another family also has the same name as well. Can this mean that it used to be a common name until recent centuries just like the Persian names? I don’t think I have that many priests in the family, most people are doctors, engineers, businessmen, or nurses. I did a lot of research on this name and it always went back to Greece. I have no clue what this name means unless I ask someone from Greece.

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  88. Michael,

    Is it not Koruth? Your Kourth may be a variant pronunciation of Koruth which is Kuruvilla or Kuriakose.

    From your list, it is evident that the name Kourth recurs in generations as first name and second name alternatively. . In Kerala, Christians traditionally use father’s first name as second name, and grandfather’s first name as first name for elder son. This is the pattern seen in your list. This shows that it is a christian name(first name), not a surname.

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  89. The name is spelled Kourth not Koruth. I don’t know if it ended up being used as a Christian name, because it’s not a common name. Yes, the pattern does show that it has been given to the eldest son in each generation. I know that names like these question peoples minds more and think more about history because it definitely did for me.

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  90. Mr. John Mathew, I found out what the name Kourth means. I went on youtube to find out and I commented on every Greek video until someone replied back. One person replied back to me and they said that Kourth is an ancient Greek word, it was a person who helped the king in ancient history. Let me know what you think about this.

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  91. I confirm the value of 389-2 is 18.

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  92. Michael: Interesting; I guess you need to now establish that “Kourth” (your family name) is a Greek name. Yes, it sounds like a Greek name with the defn that you just discovered, but is it actually Greek? Do you have any traditions that suggest this (that it is Greek) or the definition (that your ancestors were assistants to Greek kings).

    It seems like stretch to me because I don’t think this is likely, unless one of your ancestors was a Greek who came to India in the last four hundred years (some Greeks were reported to have come along with the various West Syriac bishops, though I don’t know how accurate the term “Greek” is in those reports, since there is a giant divide between West Syriacs and Byzantine/Catholic bonafide Greeks).

    Perhaps you should also investigate whether the name has a Syriac parallel. The Syriacs (especially the West Syriacs) have a large number of Greek loan words, as well as Greco-Roman names in their culture. Assuming Korth isn’t a mangling of Korah/Koruth/etc., and assuming that it is a foreign name, I’d put my money on it being of Syriac origin as opposed to direct Greek.

    Good luck in your search … please update us when you find something more.

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  93. hi all,,

    i just read this intersting article on the name “koruth”,which is also my family name passed generation after generation from my ancestors. i always used to wonder during my school days what was so special about this awkward name i carry and ofcourse i was also mocked by my friends and i even made attempt to change my name to john but my dad was so strict and persisted that i would carry this name and must pass it to my offsprings(now my grandchild is christened as yohannan koruth).i knew there was some mystery hanging around this name.i dont know whether our family has any jewish lineage but as i did some research on jewish physical characteristics,i found to my amazement that they possess long nose and nasal voice,which is a typical feature of my family.i would like to know more about this. if u could help me,i think i can figure out the truth about my family

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  94. John Mathew, thanks for the insight. It would be nearly impossible for me to find evidence that Kourth came from a Greek ancestor. I’m very positive that the name Kourth didn’t come from any recent family members. My family is just like any typical Malayalee family, so I don’t think we do anything differently. Besides, I think there is no way to trace more than two thousand years of history unless a genetic testing is done. Do these genetic testings actually tell a person anything about their ancestry? There is this article on this website called “Early references about the Apostolate of Saint Thomas in India, Records about the Indian tradition, Saint Thomas Christians & Statements by Indian”, it is a very interesting read, but I don’t know how much of it is true. There is a quote from this article about Greeks being in Kerala, “It is therefore quite possible that when driven away by the invaders, Habban, the kings merchant and his friend Saint Thomas chose as a place of safety one of those harbors of South India, Muziris for example, where there were many Jews, Syrians, Greeks etc.” Let me know what you think about this.

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  95. Sure, Malabar had trade relations with everyone; Romans, Greeks, Persians, Assyrians, Jews, Chinese, etc.

    But I don’t think any trace of that exists in our names, apart from the obvious Jewish/Christian/Greek names that we possess: but that merely indicates our Christian *religion*, and not our ancestry. For example, many Kerala Christians, including converts, have the name Alex, George, Cyril, Stephan, Mark, etc. Those are bonafide Greek names: they’re not even Christian names, strictly speaking, they are pure Greek names. Does that mean that those people are of Greek extraction? No. How about those that use the Syriacized Greek names “Kurian” or “Gewargis”? No they are not necessarily of Syriac ancestry. And same with people using the names “Mathai”, “John”, “Korah/Koruthu” etc: they are not of Jewish ancestry, necessarily.

    Names mean nothing. Even last names mean nothing because our last names are just the first names of our ancestors, which are just assigned on some basis (e.g., due to religion, we may take a Judeo-Christian name, or a Greek name with Christian precedents).

    I think the best course of action is to take one of those geneological DNA tests. That would at least give you your father’s father’s father’s … ancestor. As others have reported here, there is evidence of various interesting, diverse origins that can be found from those tests.

    My point: just researching a name doesn’t necessarily give one any evidence of what your ancestral origins were. Unless, of course, you have recent Greek ancestors (like I said, from one of those monks and their families that came over in the last four hundred years; St Gregorios of Parumala is a descendant of a Syriac priest/monks brother, for example). Then Korth as a Greek name would make sense.

    As far as I can see, a major immigration of Persians came in the 8/9th century to Kollam. There are several families that claim descend from this around Kollam/Kallada/Thevelakkara. Yet do the ancient names of their ancestors remain? Nope. I haven’t seen any people named Isodat or SabrIsho or Aphrahat in our community, have you?

    Names get introduced, removed, appropriated, borrowed, discontinued, adapted, etc. They are unreliable for tracking ancestry.

    Unless your name is Ezra or Eliayah or something like that and possess a cut foreskin. Then perhaps you’d have enough evidence to claim bonafide Hebrew ancestry!

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  96. John Mathew, thanks for the information. I thought the information that you provided was very interesting. So St. Gregorios of Parumala had Greek ancestry? I was actually born in Parumala, but my dad is from Niranam. St. Gregorios Mission Hospital in Parumala is our local hospital. Niranam, Parumala, and Thiruvalla are all right next to each other. I seriously wouldn’t know if we had any monks or priests in the family from back then, neither would my dad and my grandpa is deceased. I guess I have no other choice but to take one of those genetic tests.

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  97. Michael:

    Sorry, I was unclear. St Gregorios’ ancestor was the brother of Mar Andrews, a Syriac monk/priest/individual who came to India with his two brothers. He is buried in Kallada St Mary’s. Other descendants of this family include the Kattumangattu line of bishops. So Syriac ancestry, not Greek.

    But it was reported that some of the bishops who arrived in Malabar from the West Syriac Church were accompanied by “Greeks”. I don’t buy it, since I don’t see how Chalcedonian Greeks would come to Malabar, and I’m unaware of the existence of modern-day (or 400 year old) non-Chalcedonian Greeks; but I report it nonetheless since you seem to have some belief in a possible Greek heritage.

    DNA tests would tell you something; I don’t know if you can specifically identify that as Greek though. Like the Persians, the Greeks have a very diverse number of inputs. But you’d at least have some data that you could run with.

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  98. RE: that website.

    Sure, I don’t think it’s controversial that many of the Nasranis came from Jewish converts; it’s certainly more believable than the idiotic Brahmin origin myth. One mustn’t also forget the other large influx that contributed to the Nasranis: the immigration of Persian Christians from the era of Cosmas right up to the era of Mar Sabor/Aproth. Everyone likes to forget that one, but that one is the only immigration that has solid artifacts to back it up. The Jewish origin theory also has solid evidence via modern genetics tests and our tradition of Pesaha. I don’t think there is any solid remnant of any purported Greco-Roman heritage though; doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, just that there’s no remaining evidence.

    Although, there are some reports that the Cross found in the ruins of Nilackel had a Greco-Roman inscription. Of course, none of the geniuses who did that research saw fit to photograph, paint, rub the inscription to preserve it. So we need to rely on the noisy data coming from the troublemakers that are at the forefront of the modern-day Nilackel agitation.

    That you mentioned site doesn’t give much new info; just amplification of the tenuous claim that Niranam is the mother Church of the southern Nasranis. I don’t buy that at all. Personally, I think that the bulk of the Southern Churches (Mavelikara and south) were daughters of the Churches at Kollam, Kadampanad and Nilackel. There is solid tradition there. I think Niranam’s influence comes only via the last few centuries when it was the headquarters of the Puthenkoor.

    Perhaps the modern southern Churches of the Puthenkoor (Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant) come from Niranam, but the oldest ones (Mavelikara, Kayamkulam, Thumpamon) come from Nilackel or/and Kadampanad. And another set (Thevalakkara, Kallada) come from Kollam.

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  99. Thanks Cyril. The result has no near matches. It looks like J2b2 as Jackson was saying earlier.
    thanks,
    Kezhakken

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  100. Dear John Mathew,

    Here below is a quote from a researcher (Ms. Tirza) of Israel doing research on the ‘Malabari Jew’ of Kerala.

    “…regarding your question about White jews in Malabari synagogues: It happened quite the opposite. Malabaris would not have a white Jew for a Minyan (quorum)…’

    The above was addressed to another researcher (not me) and Jackson is aware of the entire matter. This goes to support our suspicion that the Black Jews held on to their heritage, inspite of the White Jews presense. To me it speaks volumes of the personality of the Black Jews, which we Nazerenes have inherited.

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  101. Wow – this is a really interesting discussion.

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  102. How do you get yourself a test to ascertain the Y-DNA result? Is there a centre in India?

    Regards . Sammy

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  103. Cyril seems to be in the J2a4 cluster . There are so many close matches for him in that cluster.
    the confusion may be due to the 389-2 value . National geographic follows different convention for 389 marker
    The 389-2 value given by genographic project is difference between 389ii and i . So by ftdna convention his 389ii value will be 12+18=30

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  104. Here are my views on the origins of syrian christians,
    There is no proof that St Thomas visited and converted christians in AD 52. It is just a theory most probably put forward by Portugese for obvious reasons.
    Christians (knanaya) might have arrived from Syria sometime in the 4 or 8th century and attracted some followers from the existing Hindu commnutites (probably higher castes thus leading to namboothiri claims). these two communities might have remained seperate (knanaya and non Knanaya).
    it might be only after the arrival of portugese and establishment of Catholic and Orthodox factions that people started converting in larger numbers.

    The claim by soime families of namboothiri origin could be true if we assume kanaya christians arriving in 4 or 8th century and also attracting hindu communities ( it becomes false only when we assume that St thomas came in AD52 and converted jews to christianity..which is highly unlikely and also refuted by Pope himself).

    If syrian christians were jews, why would they pratice many hindu customs including untouchablity and not converting others. ( i assume bulk of the conversions and churches started after the catholic and orthodox churches were established).

    There couldnt have been a large community that we are today from some group of jews. If you look at kanaya, namoothiri,Jews and Parsis. they all migrated from outside and still remain in small numbers.
    If syrian christians were jews this would not have been posssible.

    Lastly regarding jewish claims, jewish is not a race but just a religion.. There have been many people converted to judaism and from Judaism to other religions througout history in Europe and Middle east. Jews themselves are a mixed race.

    The various markers in DNA testing (J2) is also found amonng other communities in India (Tam brams)

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  105. Here are my views on the origins of syrian christians,
    There is no proof that St Thomas visited and converted christians in AD 52. It is just a theory most probably put forward by Portugese for obvious reasons.
    Christians (knanaya) might have arrived from Syria sometime in the 4 or 8th century and attracted some followers from the existing Hindu commnutites (probably higher castes thus leading to namboothiri claims). these two communities might have remained seperate (knanaya and non Knanaya).
    it might be only after the arrival of portugese and establishment of Catholic and Orthodox factions that people started converting in larger numbers.

    The claim by soime families of namboothiri origin could be true if we assume kanaya christians arriving in 4 or 8th century and also attracting hindu communities ( it becomes false only when we assume that St thomas came in AD52 and converted jews to christianity..which is highly unlikely and also refuted by Pope himself).

    If syrian christians were jews, why would they pratice many hindu customs including untouchablity and not converting others. ( i assume bulk of the conversions and churches started after the catholic and orthodox churches were established).

    There couldnt have been a large community that we are today from some group of jews. If you look at kanaya, namoothiri,Jews and Parsis. they all migrated from outside and still remain in small numbers.
    If syrian christians were jews this would not have been posssible.

    Lastly regarding jewish claims, jewish is not a race but just a religion.. There have been many people converted to judaism and from Judaism to other religions througout history in Europe and Middle east. Jews themselves are a mixed race.

    The various markers in DNA testing (J2) is also found amonng other communities in India (Tam brams)

    Post a Reply
  106. How is it that a community, the Southists, which have no history prior to the 16th century, can be a contributing factor in the creation of another community, the Nasranis, that have a history that predates the 16th century.

    The existing copper plate cheppads clearly attest the present of the Nasrani peoples in Kerala from the 9th century (at least). The folks mentioned in the cheppads were not Southists — the descendants of the grantees of the cheppads still exist around Kollam, and they are not Southists.

    Letters from East Syriac prelates to the Christians in Kerala (from the centuries before the 9th century) talk about authorizing the intermarriage of Persian Christians and Indians. These folks were not Southists either, as they are non-endogamous.

    The Nasranis have decent evidence for their history and that evidence predates anything related to the Southists.

    Try again Jacob.

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  107. Hey,

    I am not sure this is the right test. If we want the regional/ethnic background Y & Mitochondrial isn’t the way. We need to use Autosomal DNA. DNA is mostly Autosomal and reflects a greater portion of your ancestry. Mitochondrial goes from a mother to her sons and daughters but only a daughter passes it on to their offspring. Y goes from a father to a son.

    So, let be clearer. If Y is what is tested, it will trace your father, his father, his father and so forth.
    On the other hand let’s say you use Mitochondrial tested, it will trace your mother, her mother, her mother and so forth. Thus we will be omitting a key piece. Even if you have both tests done, they will not omit your paternal grandmother and maternal grandfather.

    As you trace your lineage further back, the family tree shapes into a triangle. Let us say for example that you go back to 6 x great grandparents and thus there is a direct lineage of 510 individuals. Out of 510 you obtain Mitochondrial from 8 and obtain Y from 8. Thus a grand total of 494 people will be excluded. Staggering! So you will only get two lines when in fact you come from a pyramid of ancestors, with you being at the top of the pyramid. Just thought I should let you guys know this since no one has mentioned it.

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  108. Jacob Mathew,

    Jews were in permanent settlement in Kerala from the time of King Solomon. But it was not Kerala back then. Neither was it Tamil but coming under Tamil invasion. The whole of India including South India which comprised of Kerala, Tamilnadu, Srilanka was still Buddist and people were in one spirit of AHIMSA and therefore vulnerbale to invasions by aggressors. The subsequent Cheras, Cholas, Pandyas were all invaders to Kerala. All the royal families of Kerala has Tamil origins. These Tamil invaders forcibly converted the Buddist worship centres called ‘Pallis’ into their temples ( Karthikappalli, Karunagappalli, Kottappalli were names given by Tamils) and instituted their deities after knocking down the statues of Budda which had been there but not as a deity fo worshipping. The language slowly became Tamil but the Jewish maintained their own language and culture. The existence of this Jewish Diaspora as well known to the Jews in Jerusalem as the ones in Egypt, Greece, Persia etc.

    When the apostles of Lord Jesus Christ started their ministry after his death they erroneously held the belief that all the Jews all over the world should be evangelised first and therefore they cast lots amongst themselves to chose who will go where. India fell on Thomas and therefore he found a ship which will take him to India. It was on his second journey to India that he found the lost sheep of israel in Kerala. On his first journey he evangelised people in what is now Pakistan, probabaly Jews from Babylon. Therefore going by the apostolic conviction there are all the reasons to believe that disciple of Lord Jesus Christ by the name of Thomas Didymos (The Twin) must have come to Kerala. He was killed by the Hindoo Brahmans of Mylapore and therefore the 7 congregations that he founded on the shores of the river bank in Kerala was without a leader not that it ws required according to the teaching of the Lord because Christ is the head of the Church. The existence of these Jewish Christians were also well known in Jerusalem and Antioch. That must have been the only reason why Thomas the merchant of Caanaa and the leader of the Jewish Christian community in Hedessah (who were actually fleeing presecution against Christians in Jerusalem/Antioch) decided to settle in Kerala. He probabaly took the familiar Hedessah to Basra by Euphrates river and got out to sea at waht is now Kuwait and sailed through the Hormuz strait touching Pakistan/Daman/Bombay/Goa/Mangalore to reach Kerala and settled with 72 families. This was his last of his many journey to Kerala as a merchant.

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  109. Dear Jacob Mathew
    First of all, we should discuss the word, ‘Nasrani’. I don’t know if you know that a Jewish sect called Nasrite existed in old testament period (Numbers 6: 1-8). The words Nasraeth and Nasrani may be related to Nasrite. Because of the Babylonian exile, Nasrite ended as Nasreth. When the Jewish Christians moved to Persia, they became Nasrani ( You know in old Persia every thing seems to end with a pronounciation of ‘ee’ meaning ‘belong to or son’. There are many people who moved to India from Persia has a ‘ni’ at the end of their names.
    I do strongly believe that St. Thomas came to Kerala and India (Indeed, the Isralites surely enjoyed the spices from Kerala long before the time of Jesus Christ). St. Thomas has only to take a fast-passenger boat to kerala in 52 AD.
    More comments later.

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  110. I am not for any DNA test. An intelligent person can make out the ancestry of a person just by looking at the physical characters. For example, if a syrian christian has pointed nose, gray or blue eyes, you can very well conclude his heritage from West Asia (Israel or other). On the other hand, if any person has very curly hair, broad nose, you can assume he is Dravidian. So, what is the big fuss about, it may not be 100% accurate. So, don’t worry too much about previous DNA and look forward to the future.

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  111. Sammy, There is of course the center at Hyderabad for testing / mapping DNA. Dr. Mini has been doing tests there for her research and will be happy to test your blood sample / DNA for free. In fact more than 400 blood samples were collected at Kuravilangad by the Hyderabad Scientists led by Maninder Singh for free testing, after an agreement of No Objection is signed by the party. Ramu

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  112. Cherian,
    Your post 44328 is wrong. Appearance of a person has little to do with DNA geneaology studies. Syrian Christians come in various appearances, so do Jews.

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  113. some fun and some fact! whatever speak about nasranis are jewish, assyrians germans. if people go to them and ask them we are this and that, they will discriminate the hell out of you. then people goin the reallize some new lessons. if kerala people have some yellow skin to brown skin and being superiour to calm pulayas in kerala! try go to fully whitewash skintone people of israel or gemany, then the story is different. or try to rajanikanth makeup kit. so keep remember dont loose your own glorious kerala hertage itself.

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  114. Dear Admin,
    wish to have a copy of papers Dr Mini Kariappa’s research work.Send me her email ID or else please send me the papers/reference.
    B.George

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  115. I am pleased to note that a portion of syrian christains are Jews in orgin. I plan to take a DNA test soon. I have been playing around with this idea of a test as I feel there is some Jewish in me. Then there is thequestion if the test result is not what I am after then I will be disappointed. By not taking I can still claim to be Jewish. I come from the vadakkedathu branch of Pakalomattom family. I understand some have tested positive.

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  116. Hi Kezhakken

    Will you please explain your post on comparison of admixture and genetic distance and also some details on the link. I did not understand anything.

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  117. As per the link that I have provided, the Syrian Christian results cluster with that of other South Indians, and that too Brahmins and Upper Castes. The three results — not very surprisingly — cluster among themselves. The Middle Easterners are nowhere near.
    I know that every one is on the “Jewish Ancestry” high, but objective data needs to be given its due credit.

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  118. I don’t know why this hype and fuss about Jewish ancestry of Syrian Christians. I also used to think that I have some Jewish blood in my body (at least some 10%). I don’t want any Jewish part anymore since I heard that the 20th century’s worst demon, namely Adolf Hitler also has Jewish ancestry. So, bye bye Jewish ancestry for me.

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  119. its not the matter of fuss about jewish ancestry that how our forefathers were hindu converts and so much biblical.logically it has lot more stories to tell that we let the stories like we are just brahimn hindu converts. look our amachis so we have sort of a christian culture than we think some hindu ammamas has sandal mark on forehead turned out to become christian. These lead someone to think that we have more like middleastern influences. may be a nasranis are hybrid. it could be true that some nasranis male side started out from a brahimn still these brahimns could have mixed with jewish or semitic womanwhich proves early jewish /israelites converted in to our nasranis gene pool. since we have orthodox chrisitanity came and we have more arabic middleeastern featured people added to nasrani community. so i think we have brahimn mixed with jewish woman and jewish male side married to brahimn or indian women and yet now it seem all of them have dravidan influences too.

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  120. Dear T. Cherian,
    If you do not like Hitler or the Jews, it is your problem. There are many who love their Jewish heritage. I am sure Dr. Mini Kariappa loves her Jewish heritage, otherwise she would not have gone this far. You can go ahead and love the ‘metric or communist or pagan’ or whatever you like heritage.
    Further, can you establish one evidence that shows that Hitler was Jewish? You are the one who is indulging in hype,

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  121. T. Cherian:

    I think part of the reason why Nasrani’s are interested in determining a possible Jewish connection is because, for the most part, Nasrani history has been pretty poorly treated. Hence, people are interested in knowing who their fathers were. And since we are, for the most part, Christian, a possible connection to the people from whose culture and religion Christianity sprung is pretty tantalizing.

    Nasranis have diverse origins which include ethnic Persian immigrants (who were Nestorians), ethnic Aramean immigrants (who were Nestorian, until the last 400s years during which a few Jacobite Aramean families immigrated), ethnic Indians (since the former intermarried with the latter, and since Indians may have been converted by the former), and Jews.

    All of these groups may have had unsavory characters. Does one despise one’s ancestry simply because one of one’s ancestors, or kinfolk, were despicable? There are despicable Syrian Christians (personally, I include many of the current bishops of the various Nasrani churches in this category), but I wouldn’t cease to call myself a Nasrani simply because my relatives/compatriots were undesirable. So your reasoning is strange.

    I do think that there are a lot of frauds and idiots in our community who are using horribly shoddy reasoning to point to a Jewish connection. In fact, I think the majority of the claims are ridiculous (e.g,. the stupid stories some pull out of nowhere to claim, as fact, that there were Jews in Kerala from the time of Solomon; or that Thomas came to India to preach to the Jews; or that the Nestorians were lost tribes of Israel). These have no rigor nor the hint of any scientific method behind them — just fantasy.

    However, erasing those idiots, one can still see that there are some substantial aspects about our people and culture. For example, Pesaha in the Nasranis is unparalleled in any other “Christian” community. It is almost certainly a remnant of a Jewish component that formed a part of our ancestors. And there’s the Cohen Modal Haplogroup that is present in our people as well that pretty clearly indicates who some of our ancestors were.

    So, throwing out the mystics, the wishful thinkers, and the intellectually-defective hypothesizers — throwing this out, there is still a kernel of interesting fact that suggests some Jewish ancestry. And that should be accepted for what it is. Whether Hitler was a Jew or not … means nothing at all. Stalin was Georgian Orthodox: similarly despicable as Hitler, perhaps far worse due to the sheer numbers of people he murdered, does that mean the Georgians or the Byzantine Orthodox should renounce their origins?

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  122. T. Cherian

    I have been off this site for sometime, thanks to the condescending and pompous attitude of some of our more active members. So we need not look for boors afar, they are here, among us.
    However, I think your comment is made in anger, sir. If we have a Jewish ancestry, why deny it? True, it must not be used to say that we are higher or lower, in the caste sense, I mean. But if it is a historical fact, let us accept it. And, if Hitler is a Jew, so be it. Doesn’t every family have black sheep?
    My only fear is that the more pompous and orthodox among us will use the Jewish connection to preach that we are ‘special’. There is no one among us who is superior or inferior. We are one in Christ. And, if we don’t believe that, we are chopping down the central pillar of our community, our faith.

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  123. Dear Jacob John
    I also use internet like you. I got into the Google search and typed Hitler Jewish ancestry. Then I got a lot of information including DNA evidence. If you are book reader, I suggest you also read Alice Miller’s book “The body never lies; The lingering effect of a cruel parenting” (I am not sure the title is the same where Hitler is mentioned, but I am definite about the author, Alice Miller). Please check

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  124. Dear T. Cherian,

    Hitler’s mother’s mother’s father’s, mothers, father’s mother’s father would have been a jew, but that does not make Hitler a Jew. If Hitler’s parents or even grandparents were Jews, then I would agree with you.

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  125. Matthew T. George, I am with you, it all comes back to Christ! If we have jewish ancestry, no shame, but we are not better for it, if we don’t, the same. Let’s not forget most probably the majority of our ancestry is from the indigenous population, and we happen to have other ancestries that can be quite diverse, but do not define who we are. We are Nasranis, meaning we follow the Nazarene, who is Christ the Lord. In him everyone is one and the same. Let us have fruitful discussions that will happen to reveal history, but not division!

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  126. Hitler’s Y-DNA was E1b1b. He was 80% african berber and 20% Jew. The berber tribe is concentrated in Algeria. The DNA sample was taken from his nephew Patrick. His body was never found. His grandmother was a Jewish maid. His father was an illegitimate off spring from a Jjewish maid named Maria Schickelgruger. He has roots in the Ashkenazi and sheperdic Jews. So Hitler was neither Aryan nor was of a pure blood as he claimed and in support of his Nazi fundamentals. If Hitler had known this he would have shot through his head.

    All Gods are ancestor gods, that’s why we care called God’s children. The Hindus are very clear about what they worship. Their gods are either ancestor gods, the living or the dead. It is about possession of the soul by God. My neighbours father will provide for his children first and then only he will help me.This is the same with God. There is enough proof in the Bible. The God of the Jews will provide for his people first and then only to people who are non-jews. The reason why people rush to claim they are Jews is beacuse they want be known as the children of God Yehovah. The Jews do not accept Jesus as a messiah or the son of Yehovah. Jesus is a god by himself. The Catholics worship the sacred heart/soul of Jesus but it is not the same as the Pentacosts, they worship the sacred heart of Yehovah called Sakinah holy spirit, its symbol being the flying cat. The people who worship the spirtit of God takes the characters of that particular God.

    Hear this true story!

    Yohannan was neither a Jew nor was the cousin of Jesus. Yohannan was his father’s age. Jesus was the disciple of Yohannan after his unfortunate death . In fact 5 of Jesus disciples were Yohannan’s disciples. Like Jesus christ he was John christ according to his followers who are still concentrated in Iraq. Jesus is believed to be blond and his surname was Pandera. Christianity is best suitable for the european blood. In the begining the Keralites were John christians. That is the reason for the absence of Jesus christ on the second century cross in Kuruvilangad. The act of baptism and renewal was a John christian practice. Later when the catholic church was formed, the Bible was written from the hundreds of books that was floated which is now the current version of the Bible. Baptism was a copy from the John christians. They believe that Yohannan is the actual messiah and all the words of Jesus are actually John’s words. Jesus says he is not even worth the slippers of Yohanan. John baptised for cleansing of the soul wherein which the soul is emptied making it holy and bereft of any possession by god’s spirits. Yohanan used a cross shaped spoon to pour water over the head during baptism.The spoon was engraved with the symbol of flying dove. The spoon took the shape of the flying dove. The spoon had a handle. Later the catholics replaced the dove with Jesus.

    The bible was supposed to be written by the disciples but no proof. It is only a belief. The original teachings of Yohannan are embedded in the new testament. Read carefully you will understand. The new testament promotes Jewsh idealogy, the reason may be that in those days it was considered blasphemous and punishable to write anything which does not boast Judaism.and gave first preference to it. So the new testament is a mixture of John’s, later day Jesus followers idealogy and Jewish idealogy.

    So there were first the John/Yohan christians in Kerala and then came the Jews in the fourth century..After which came the catholic/nestorian idealogy Then they all got mixed together to form the orthodox idealogy which was more tilted towards the Jews and left behind the John christianism except for the baptism and made John a saint. You know the rest of what is today.

    So with so much of secrets which we do not know it is not right to rush into things. Jewism originally followed the blood line. Now it is no more. There are even negros in Jewism. It is not clear whether Jews migrated from Bactria to Judea or from Judea to Bactria(Afghan).They were like the parsees/Zorastrians(persians) who marry among themselves. Being so their population had dwindled to a meagre 100,000 people. Famous parsees include The Tatas, Godrej, Indra Gandhi’s husband, Jinnah, Freddie Mercury,,etc

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  127. John P. wrote:
    “The God of the Jews will provide for his people first and then only to people who are non-jews.”

    This has no support in the Bible. Read the Prophets, and the teaching is very clear: the God of the Jews, Y..H, is the Father of the universe, the God of all nations. His followers are whoever follows His Law: whether Jew or non-Jew.

    A study of Jeremiah, for example, reveals this teaching quite clearly, but it is echoed in the other Prophets as well. Adam, Noah, Abraham were not a Israelites nor Jews, yet that didn’t diminish God’s friendship with them.

    It is unfortunate that people with no shred of knowledge of these matters make such comments; it serves only to mislead other ignorant people.

    (Finally, Jinnah was no Parsee. He married one, and his daughter married one. But he was a non-practicing Muslim, and a hypocrite.)

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  128. Mr Chacko.

    Thanks so much for putting it in perspective once more. A Jewish link adds one more element to the ‘aviyal’ that we are. An interesting element, no doubt. But that is all. Nothing more, nothing less. I am more interested in our authentic socio-cultural history. Faith bonds the Nasranis, but it is not the sole element that makes us the oldest group of indigenous Christians.

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  129. Sick racists, grow out of all this, and try to help fellow converts getting killed by Hindu nationalists. Too obsessed with your blood and race. You are basically left overs of Nestorians fleeing to India long ago, mixed up with the local maids and others. Now thinking you are better than everyone else, defending Hinduism. You are basically Hindus in proxy. Period. Choose Christ or choose Hinduism. Don’t put one foot in one boat and the other in another boat, and then taking sides of your great “Hindu India”, which is filled with nothing but hypocrites and deniars. Jesus said, “all things will be made known, nothing will be hidden”, your community is getting more and more exposed. 2000 years, and you have never even evangelized India . The Latin Catholics and protestants have taken the gospel deep, you on the other hand, have done nothing, but just produce inbred community, filled with casteists, haters of other races, haters of other Christian denominations. Atleast some of us are not going to fall for this trick. Get over your racism and learn to accept others. I am a convert and you owe my ancestors a lot of thanks for allowing you to live in our regions. The best we can expect from you is now help the converts who are facing the heat from the Hindus. Hypocrites. Might sound harsh, but it takes a drill to drill through hard rocks and mindsets. Instead of getting defensive, take this post as a learning input, and try to correct out some of your community’s racist and arrogant mentality. Clean your churches out of these false pagan cultural systems, and put on the Spirit of God. By your fruits you shall be known, go spread the gospel of Christ to the unsaved. It’s a shame that Hindus gave you shelter, and you allowed their souls to be damned. Get over these racist “bloodline” rubbish. The book of Acts clearly says, from ONE BLOOD HE MADE ALL NATIONS OF MEN (ACTS 17:26).

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  130. Dear Convert,
    I read your post with not a little alarm. I expect that your remarks were about Nazranis and with that assumption in mind I wish to respond.There was no explicit or implicit message in Jesus’ sermons or Paul’s epistles that Christians should convert Indian Hindus to Christianity. Or for that matter any other community to Christianity not withstanding Paul’s commitment to gentile conversion. This universal conversion business was a later dispensation of colonials who occupied our land and managed to corrupt us into racism. You seem to find strength in Reagan’s commitment to give a bible to all villages in India. Nothing wrong if that is your understanding of Christianity. But kindly do not insist that it is the only way to being a Christian.
    I find the Nazranis to be rather insular but definitely not racist. In India each community lives by their own culture, customs and traditions. Sometimes others who belong to other faiths and communities find it difficult to accept. Everyone thinks that he / she has perfect knowledge and his faith, and that faith is superior to all. This is so because in India anyone can practice any religion and follow any philosophy without any interference so long as he / she does not try to assert that theirs is the only faith and others do not have right to their way of looking at things. That is tolerance. There is no reason why Christians should feel bad that the Nazranis have not helped in evangelizing India to Christianity.It was not their creed. Even today Nazranis are least involved in evangelical work and quite rightly so according to me. There is nothing false or pagan in any faith. Therefore there is nothing to be cleaned or be ashamed of. Being a Hindu or Jew at heart is nothing strange as Nazranis owe much to these two religions and make them proud of their heritage. You are most welcome to practice your faith. Let others do it in whatever way they want to. Finally what is wrong with being a Nestorian?
    B.George

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  131. Don’t try to “stay too apart” from mainstream India or practice too much “marriage purity” , shunning other Christians out based on their race. It’s nothing but Nazism. In Christ there is no Jew or greek. I am a convert to roman catholic faith, and I don’t see any problems with Western Catholics, Latin Catholics, throughout the world, expect with your people. You also keep defending Hindu nationalists and Hindu cultural systems, which by default are deeply influenced by Satanic value systems. Just because Hindus treated you nice and showered you with money and cash to your ancestors, does not legitimize the mistakes in your community. Those comfy days are coming to an end. As a convert from the majority community, we basically dislike your cultural systems, and we regret that you got too comfortable among our predecessors. In Kerala, expect tensions to rise between Hindus and your “Syrian Christian community”, and also between converts and you. You are basically a liability , attempting to bury down internationally the real face of Hindu persecution towards converts, they gave their lives, and were disowned by their own families for christ, they never accepted Hinduism back. St Thomas is their hero, St Thomas is their legend, not your racialist agendas and casteist mentality. JESUS IS LORD AND SAVIOR and EVERY KNEE shall bow down to Him, wether Syrian Christian or Hindu or Muslim one day and CONFESS him as LORD. It is we converts, that will one day take the gospel of Christ that St Thomas died under Hindus to the whole world. Don’t stand in our way and don’t spread hatred towards converts and other denominations. Your bells and whistles are nothing compared to the blood and sacrifice given by many countless Hindu converts to Christianity. Hinduism is false, it is demonic, and it is a lie. You know that, and you either stand against it or with it. Finally, St Thomas is not your property, He preached to the Persians, to the Arabs, long before he arrived into Kerala, and he also preached to the tamils and would have gone throughout Asia, had he not been killed. Something your ancestors failed to carry his legacy and got too “comfortable” being the “upper caste” and “elite”. Guess what? Many converts are emerging from the “top castes”, and we will break down the caste barrier, and we will challenge your concepts and perceptions. You are a backward people when compared to what our families where, financially and caste wise, so don’t act too over “the top” and look down on others. Hardly 6 million in Kerala, just a miniscule amount. Nothing more. It is in your community’s best interests not antagonize Hindu converts, many of them still having deep links among the influential Hindus of Kerala. Learn to accept all, learn to open your churches to baptisms, learn to open your communities to accept others in Faith. Get rid of this “We are so and so’s children”. You either are the sons of God or the sons of the Devil. There is no third or fourth options here.

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  132. I ready our comments George, just disgusting the way you have twisted the living Gospel of Jesus Christ that was meant to be preached to every nation in this world, as great commission as being “Regan’s command”.

    You disgust me, with your indifference, with your dead attitude, and your so called “Everyone is free to believe whatever devils they want to believe”, and if India was such utopian paradise, so many Christians would not have died in India or disowned by their families for accepting Christ. So many people would have not been martyred in Orissa, or many other states for accepting the living Christ, who is their Lord and Savior and died for them. They have every right to know the living God and worship the living God. That was the very command of the gospel.

    I have nothing further to reply to such a dead person. Finally what is wrong being a Heretic Nestorian? Well, it is asking what is wrong in worshiping Satan then? You seem to be completely devoid of the concept of right and wrong, concept of what is acceptable to God or not.

    You seem to have ignored the very martyrdom of St Thomas, who didn’t bow down to Hindu gods and died for his faith. If he had thought like you, he would have died a peaceful death , worshiping the goddess that he refused to bow down to.

    And your statement, proud of Hindu and Jewish, there is no such concept of a Jew mixing with a Pagan, it was prohibited by the old testament laws, and Jews do not generally marry Hindus, and Hindus do not marry Jews those days, they both were strictly endogamous.

    “the conversion” business indeed was started by a non-Indian named St Thomas, he started to preach and bring people to faith and he kept preaching till his final moment. It is that commitment to tell the world that His Lord lives, that drove him so far away from the Roman empire into distant lands, and give his life for this cause.

    This is not “my understanding” of the gospel, this is the universal teaching of the Church, to go and make disciples of all nations and preach the gospel to every creature. While your heretic and dead and racist sect , that lived here on the hand outs of our ancestors, has it’s own definition of the gospel, the doctrine of demons.

    Cheers

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  133. Of course, your caste ridden , inbred community would obviously be proud of Knai Thomman and his stooge of nestorians showing up to destroy and corrupt the true church of St Thomas and eventually mixing paganism and doctrines of demons , until the “colonials” had to show up with the real gospel. Isn’t it ?

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  134. No need to carry any further discussions with you on this topic, I forwarded this “racist” page to many many Hindu converts to read, let them be warned not to get associated with people like yours, you hate other communities, look down on other people including low caste Hindus, you look down on Roman Catholics, you have no respect for Western Christians, many of them with great values and brought great education and assistance to people.

    You enjoy being “The top class” of kerala isn’t it ? You enjoy to go back to your old days of having multiple wives, astrology, demon worship, caste system ? What does God have to do with Belial ? You eat from the same table of demons isn’t it ? What has the words ” There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved” mean to you ?

    What does No one can come to the father, except by me mean to you ? What does do not yoke with unbelievers mean to you? I am sure it all means nothing.

    I am not a keralite, but I am disgusted with the way you treat other Indians, I am disgusted with the way even some of my own keralite convert friends were treated by people like you, you would even join with Hindu gangs to kill converts if you had chance.

    “Each community to it’s own” basically that is your way of saying “hey, we are racist, stay out “. You would not even bother if someone in another community burnt their women alive, it was the British that stopped them, what did you do ? you spoke out against evil? against untouchability ? you did nothing.

    Nestorianism is a heresy, a defeated heresy. Jesus Christ is both God and Man, perfect God, perfect Man, one person. The damage Neostorian heretics did to the Byzantine empire is breath taking, leading to the suffering of the Coptics who took the other extreme stand on the divinity of Jesus Christ.

    Eventually the entire orthodox churches getting subjugated under Islam. Perhaps, that was God’s judgement on your orthodox rubbish. You are defeated and racist and communally hate filled churches.

    Thank God for Archbishop Menzes, thank God for sending the British, sending the Americans, thank God He opened up the world for Indians. Thank God for the freedom we have in Christ to marry any one in Christ from any community, thank God there is no Jew or Greek in Christ, THANK THE LORD that we are one in Christ.

    NO THANKS to you racist Kerala nasranis. You basically are worse than Hindu nationalists. You are wanna be Brahmins, nothing more. A lot of head knowledge does not mean you have faith. Without Faith you are dead as white washed tombs.

    This racist page is a proof, let many other communities see your true colors. No more replies from me. Of course, you will defend your racist community that looks down on other Christians and other low caste Hindus, of course, demons defend demons. What else to expect?

    Christianity is going to grow in India rapidly, and persecution will increase, that is the kingdom of God spreading. More and more upper caste Hindus will accept Christ, and they will make sure they will stand up against people like you. Your days of being “comfortable” is coming to an end, you stand exposed as RACIST people.

    Pity that we were not there long ago when kanai thomman showed up, we would have send his ships packing back from where he came from. I don’t have the time to write “academically”, right now, I could refute and defeat each of your arguments, but perhaps in the future I shall return to do so.

    “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, ACTS 17:30

    “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4).

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3).

    John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

    for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

    Bye
    Ex Brahmin -> Roman Catholic (NON KERALITE)

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  135. Dear Convert ‘the Lionheart’,

    You seems to be a sick child, in need of some urgent medication. You are living in the age of the crusades. Good to you. But please dont import your theology and fanatic ideology elsewhere. Keep it to you yourself. This is the typical ‘bloody clapping PENTHY’ behaviour, a fanatic with no understanding, a preacher with no knowledge, a believer with no faith or devotion but mere emotions.
    All your accusations are perfect fit for you – you should be preaching to a mirror (remember when you point a finger at someone else 3 of your own fingers are pointing at you.). You calls others of being hypocritic and racist and goes on to inject venom of hatred towards the Hindus. So who is a hypocrite here ?

    You are hiding in a safe heaven and tells others to go and preach ? what a fun. Or are you there to preach the growing community of Indians there ?

    “Dont be like a wild ass or a mule who has no understanding, whose mouth should be held with a bit and bridle. “

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  136. Hello Convert,

    I think you do not understand the point of this forum. No one here cares about Christianity or being Christian, it is about revival of our identity, trying to understand who we are and where we came from. We do not believe in Christo-pagan gods and whatever you born agains believe in, hell most of us probably don’t even believe in Christ on this forum. The cult of Christianity started with a Roman/Greek/Egyptian, etc. tradition and we wonder if we are descendants of that original tradition or are we some sort of adivasis. We refuse to believe that we are adivasis, since we think we are an upper class successful community.

    Do Marwari’s consider all Hindu’s as brothers? Do Parsi’s care about their iranian brethren? Do Aga Khan’s care about other muslims? Do Shias care about Sunnis?

    This conversation is not about Christianity, it’s about a community, it’s an ethnographic study. A study that can answer questions about the history of Kerala. Are we paravas? Are we Syrian sailors? Are we remnants of Buddhists in Kerala, mistaken for Christians at the arrival of Portuguese? We do not have any remains of our tradition besides those stupid Copper plates written in Pahlavi, which could have very well been forged in the 18th century.

    So we clearly are curious about our mysterious origins and need answers and investigation into our past. We are intellectually curious enough not to be happy with saying “We are God’s children, who cares about our background”. Great that you are not a shallow individual but humanity progresses on curiosity not blind acceptance.

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  137. looks to me that this poor chap had gone for some marital alliance with some Nasrani family and got rejected. Apologies if this isnt the case. Anyway to me it looks like you have been taken over by emotions.

    Dear Convertji,
    You have mistaken the objective of the discussions here as Mr.Suriyaniji says. We are simply trying to trace our origins and preserve our culture and traditions, and to preserve our identity (which you are critical of).
    If you or any of your friends have had some bitter experience, it is because many among us are very orthodox, especially in choosing bride/groom.

    Reasons -

    1. Second commandment reads “You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation”.

    Now, a convert is coming from a family who were serving an idol/another god other than YHWH. There fore the wrath of god may be up on him/her and their coming generations (note that this is the physical punishment only, no soul would be condemned for the sin of another – “The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children’s teeth are set on edge) in accordance with the 2nd commandment and the Nasranis werent/arent brave enough to risk this.

    2. Even though the Nasranis were Christians by faith (I doubt), our culture was Hindu. This means Manusmriti forms the foundation of our social behaviour. In addition to casteism, we also observe the strict marriage rules, and it is a shame for the entire family (not just immediate family), if a person marries outside the community, especially when marrying lower.

    Now in Manusmriti marriages with blood relatives is strictly prohibited (Nasrani’s do not marry from the same clan – i.e family name. Also marriage with any other blood relative is not allowed for 7degrees of relationship). Apart from Nambuthiris and Nasranis no other community in Kerala observed these laws. Therefore marriage and alliance with such persons, even after conversion is not allowed. In addition to Manusmriti, 6th Law of Noah is also about this.

    Now a days people are more open to marriage from converts ( with Latin Catholics and CSI christians).
    Still majority of the community are orthodox in this matter. Believe me, many among us wont seek alliance outside the community, regardless of their (proposing family’s) wealth or glory, be it the Children of Mukesh Ambani.

    I am open to any discussions on any matters – be it about faith, caste.. anything, just as you said.
    But now, before criticising find time to read the articles posted and the also teh objectives of this forum.

    Also to your knowledge – Nasranis werent living on handouts from anyone, nor were at anyone’s mercy. Also we dont consider anyone to be above us in anyting – caste, creed, religion.. anything, so please dont issue veiled threats, in the name of some hindus/uppercaste convers/ dalit converts etc.. These are futile (In malayalam there is a saying – Vedikkettukarane Udukkukotti Pedippikkaruthu which translates to ‘dont try to frighten a firework contractor by beating somekind of small drum, used in temples. )

    You dont need to reply to this anyway, but please go through your own postings and check if there was any racist/supermacist tone in it.
    Have a good day.

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  138. I am not a pentecostal, but what if we converts preach ? What are you “Nasranis” or “left overs of Maid+Thomman’s affairs” going to do with us? Burn us alive as your nationalist brothers did in orissa or Gujarat ?

    The kind of racial hatred in you even towards other Christians, shows that you are capable of killing Christians if you had a chance would you not?

    In the eyes of the fanatic, there is no lukewarm or born again, they both are the same. Your “marriage” purity rubbish, is clearly evident in your domestic violence, drug abuse, alcoholism vastly prevalent in your community, even in other nations, most of the men just go visiting prostitutes, and their women just depressed and locked up, with deformed babies born out of inbreeding and genetic defects being born.

    You are disgusting, not the face of Indian Christianity but the face of something far more sinister and dark and demonic.

    No wonder the Portuguese had to discipline you racist, casteist whackos, do us all a favor, and stop calling yourself “Christian”, you peusdo-Brahmincal cult. Any Brahmin would laugh at you.

    And no, I am not cursed by accepting Christ, by Christ I am set free, and washed by the blood of the Lamb. No curse has effect on me , I am freed from the curse of the Lord upon my forefathers, while you come under that curse by fornicating with devils.

    That truth hurts so much ? Of course it will. Even the Jews considered Jesus “mad” and “fanatic”, so would whitewashed tombs like you.

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  139. Dear Convert,
    You seem to have a very poor opinion about me. I accept your comments. However one or two issues will require my comments. Regarding your comment about what happened in Orissa in the not too distant past the final judgement is still not in. There are strong reasons to believe that the issues were between too tribal groups and some outside elements took advantage of the brewing discontent. I am not ruling out tribal or Hindu prejudice against converts. But this is basically something that the law will handle in course of time. No amount of heartache from your part or mine will offer a quick solution however harsh this may sound. Incidentally my sympathy is with those who suffered purely on humanitarian grounds. Death and/or destruction is never selective and those who suffer are in one group- humans.
    You do not have a good understanding about Ronald Reagan’s intentions. He and some other US presidents wanted to create a group who would be politically loyal to US. Giving a Christian label was a good strategy politically. Reagan was at the cutting edge of this political posture. No US president will try to spend a good $600 million to flood Indian villages with the bible unless it serves a political purpose. Imagine the US congress approving such a largess! Come on Sir no body is that altruistic.
    I am sorry to see you misquoting me. I did not use the word”devil” any where in my post that you are referring to. Where did you dig this out from?
    I am not surprised to see that you are not from Kerala to start with and therefore your knowledge of Nazranis is at best second or third hand given to you by some missionaries who could not find any response from Nazranis to whom they tried to preach Christianity as interpreted by foreign missionaries. No one least of all Nazranis underscore the spread of education in Kerala by missionary groups. But in Kerala particularly in Travancore from where I come the local kings spent large sums of money to give education to the people from the state treasury even before the English came on the scene. I think the Cochin kings also gave similar help. I have had an interesting argument about this with a world famous and well known Indian economist who also thought that the English are solely responsible for modern education in India. I think I convinced him to the contrary as far as Kerala is concerned.But the English residents did substantially for English education. Even the most ardent supporters of the education system now prevailing in most of India as an English contribution will admit that the primary aim of the missionaries /and British government was the production of clerks. Therefore your implicit claim that foreigners tried to civilize Nazranis is both provocative and lacking in substance.
    Incidentally I happen to be in touch with some missionary groups mostly based in US regarding conversion of local Hindus to Christianity which I have always objected to since in my opinion the sort of conversion taking place today in India is by coercion in some form. This will only help in producing religious and cultural misfits and on that count alone should require strong curbs. I have lived among mostly tribal and non tribal groups all over India for some 30 years mostly in villages. They knew I was a Christian and never were prejudiced against me on that account. This I think is due to the traditional tolerance of The Hindu religion some extremist fringe elements notwithstanding
    I doubt whether you have spent even ten years in a real Indian village. If you had you would have a more generous attitude to others who may not agree with your views.
    Finally if Christianity is such a great religion with all the virtues and paragons of righteousness and no vices why many people do not accept it ?
    Do be reflective and generous as Christians are supposed to be and chances are you will learn to respect others.Give to others what you expect from them!
    B.George

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  140. By the way , being “emotional” should not be confused with being passionate about something, perhaps you should learn to understand the passion of our Lord towards his final days before crucifixion, perhaps read the bible once in a while to see the emotional depth of God.

    Your head knowledge is filthy rags before the living God, perhaps being a bit emotional can save your community from a lot of wife beatings, and child abuse. Two cents to think about. I do however, agree with most of you that Pentecostals are a huge nuisance, but they are there because of your own dead churches and unwillingness to continue the great commission of the Lord, and then on top of that boasting to be the “real Christians” , when some of you here admit the fact Christianity is a pagan beliefs, which leaves me speechless, yet feeling sorry for your souls.

    “Converts” like us, have paid the ultimate price of loosing our families, it is a testimony we are more than happy to repeat, because that loss is our treasure, and that step is what we took to choose between Christ and our families, we chose Christ. Then to the very end we are willing to sacrifices our lives for it.

    That, my friend is not fanaticism, but faithfulness. The same commitment that Thomas had, and you lack and reject willingly as cold hearted and dead individuals.

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  141. Suriani : dont project your ignorance on everyone. We have more than the cheppads (which were observed in the 1500s and so werent a forgery, since Portugese Pahlavi scholars wouldnt have existed in that era). We have the persian crosses, which clearly point to persian christian origins. And we have the third party observations down to the fourth century.

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  142. Christianity was meant to break down the barriers between God and man, and between men, Jesus said, “When I am lifted up, I shall draw all men to myself’. Peter, was asked by the Lord to eat anything he wanted, a symbolic way of saying the gentiles have been cleansed through faith in Christ.

    A country like India needs Christianity to break down divisions and hatred, and caste system, and here we have men like Varghese hooting and cheerleeding the caste system and the hated manu smriti that has destroyed an entire nation and kept it backwards and divides people up.

    And on top of that, this group propagates itself as the “original one and only indigenous christians”, ofcourse anyone would feel outraged and angered by this kind of stuff.

    my apologies to the good born again Syrian Christians who love all other people and do not have a caste or race based mindset.

    It’s the scumbags that need a direct dose of racist tones, (this is how I would have constantly said if I still was not a Christian yet), what you saw above is what is the “old nature” of man.

    And seeing your “old natures” here, obviously our own old natures can manifest.

    God bless

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  143. Convert:

    How is India in any way backwards due to Hinduism? Racism and prejudice existed in Christian nations as well as non-Christian ones. And it is Indian civilization that is digging itself out of its mess. India hardly needs Christianity, especially the foreign missionary versions that (in the words of a 19th century British observer) created enmity in a nation where people once got along (he was talking about the great relations between Nasranis and Nairs that were destroyed due to missionary activities like insulting the Hindu religion.

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  144. @John How is in India backward due to Hinduism? Either you are completely ignorant of Hindus and Hindu practices, or you are basically that blind.

    “Racism ad Prejudice” may have existed in a few nations, but that was not due to Christianity as a religion itself . Hinduism on the other hand, actively promotes divisions and racism, and codifies it into practices, it stratifies society into the caste system, there are no major values in Hinduism as seen in Christ. Hinduism does not preach equality.

    I can go deep and show you scripture after scripture taken from Hindu books, that Brahmins have ideas what Hinduism is about. Then this entire page would turn into anti-Hindu bashing. Your knowledge of Hinduism is poor, because you had a privileged life, does not mean you have the right to deny other’s the knowledge of christ.

    You are more worried of your relations with Nairs, than your own salvation. Get your priorities straight mate.

    “Foreign missionaries” did not do anything, no one converted a Brahmin born person into a Christian from “overseas” or countless other converts.

    India is digging itself out of the mess? Really? That’s not the facts in majority of India to begin with. I”d rather not get stated into India bashing here. You need to grow out of this bubble word of yours.

    Regarding Varghese – We commit resources through the Catholic faith to preach the gospel in India, and bring equality through Catholic Indian missionaries.

    Regarding what we have done = loosing our own homes and families for sake of Christ, is a start. Is that enough or you want us to loose our lives as well ?

    To finalize, I am not a pentecostal but a Catholic.

    And in Christ there is no “west or east”, there is only one Church, one God and one Holy Spirit.

    It’s you who seem to divide Christians as west and east.

    Racism and caste system was NOT preached by Christianity, it IS preached by Hinduism (Manu smirit/ and many other scriptures).

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  145. Dear Convert,
    Some of your assertions need to be critically examined. I take two issues. One is a remark that Nazranis are casteists and therefore there is something wrong in it. Nazranis do believe in castes as our society is organized that way. We as a small group cannot escape it. But we did not create it and therefore acceptance is natural. In any case the concept of caste is not exceptional or unique to India and the Hindu society. It is the norm in all evolved societies. The Greeks had it. Plato in Republic espouses such a system.He envisaged that a society will have priestly class (Bbrahmans in India)solder class(Shatriyays in India) trading class( Vysya in India) and menial class ( Sudras in India). The last in case of Greece and much of Europe were slaves- the spoils of war. The Romans practiced it and all evolved societies had such practices. But the difference is that in Europe the class barrier that existed broke down when colonization of India, Africa and America took place giving individuals greater economic and religious freedoms. In India unfortunately this has not happened so far though it is no fault of ours. Since the break up of the Mughal Empire and the advent of colonists the economic and religious freedoms became less and less progressively and the caste barriers became more rigid. And various colonial rulers notably the British had a strong stake in such a development. Divide and rule became the law. Fortunately for India the founding fathers of our constitution recognized this caste based rigidity and its adverse impact on certain sections of the society and suggested remedial measure for it. It is working although more needs to be done.
    The second issue is your assertion that India needs Christianity to solve all problems. I am afraid that this is an imperfect assessment no doubt imported to India by the fundamentalist Christian groups from USA.It does not solve anything. If anything it will create a group of neo-Christians who will not be claimed by anyone and will not be able to stand by themselves without foreign help. Perhaps that is the aim of the fundamentalist Christian groups in USA. No Sir! we can do without them.
    You will appreciate if you are open minded that Nazranis as a group have never sought or received any help from foreign churches as the RC churches are getting.
    And as some other contributors have mentioned this forum is primarily interested in tracing Nazrani history and cultural developments and therefore the agenda is limited to that and most certainly not religious conversion and evangelicalism .
    B.George.

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  146. I read through many comments on this forum, its interesting and heart breaking when some people comment on the things that they do not know about.

    I have a suggestion to people who comment on this forum, I came here to find out my ancestry.
    1. People who are not interested in this forum please do comment or please don’t make senseless comments.
    2. I believe is this forum is to determine whether we (Nasrani) have Jewish origin or not. As we have a oral saying that we are the 1st converted Jews.
    3. Please read Bible, it is very sad that people are commenting on this forum without Biblical knowledge.
    4. Please try to dig deeper into history, before making comments.
    5. I am not to argue either clause, am here to find out my ancestry.
    6. St. Thomas Christians have unique traditions than any other Christians in the world and we should be proud of it.

    Let me try to explain little from Bible and some other facts…

    There were total of 11 + 2 tribes of Israel. Biblical Jacob (called as Israel) had 12 sons. Joesph, the son of Jacob was given double inheritance. It is 11 sons of Jacob and 2 sons of Jacob constituting total of 13 tribes of Israel. Among the 13 only 12 were allotted land to live in. Levites lived among all the tribe, as they were consecrated as priest and lived along the tribe. Aaron’s tribe is Levite tribe. From where we talked about Cohen DNA group. It was common in Israeli tribe to have a Levites living among them.

    If you read Bible, you could see that there was a separation in Israel. Israel was divided in Israel and Judah after the rule of King Solomon. Jew comes from the root word Judah. Rather Judaism comes from the word Judah.

    Kingdom of Judah, followed God closely than any other Tribe of Israel. All other Israel did not follow God. They created a gold calf to worship. So let me tell you that some people say that we have Nambudari or some Hindu background.. it is not right. House of Israel worshiped calf and God of Israel was angry on Israelite and casted them out of his promise land. So God let Assyrians attack Israel and all the tribes of Israel were sent into exile.

    Later on only Tribe of Benjamin and Judah returned. One should note that Levites lived among every tribe. So, Levites are the unique marker in the community. But all others tribes got lost in the world. There are no records were they went for exile. One should also understand, since House of Israel, is the God’s chosen people they are always being persecuted among other communities. It genetic markers of Nasrani are resembling to 2700 years before our time, which is exactly the time that Assyrians attacked the House of Israel.

    Whoever moved from Israel, were not following God as they were supposed to follow, they had other God’s. They definitely have carved calf (baby cow) and worshiped it. Since, we are living in India and Cow has sacredness and many people consider it as god. People mistake that there were some Nambudari and other Hindu people were involved. As a whole Nasranis’, could be a one of the lost tribes of Israel who took their tradition and moved to Malabar coast of India.

    As now as per oral tradition and with evidence, we believe that we are the first Christians who got converted by St. Thomas during 52AD. One should understand that Malayalam is very recent language only being in existence for about 1000 years. So, almost 2000 years ago, they might have talked Syriac language, which is dialect of Hebrew. So, it would have been easy for St. Thomas to talk to people of Malabar, as they were both coming from the same place. People turned to Christ and started following the Judeo-Christian traditions again.

    Till 15th century AD, Nasrani’s lived in unity and peace. Tipu Sultan persecuted Nasranis on one side converting them to Islam and on the other side Portuguese converting them to Catholics. So, we know that we Nasrani moved from Malabar to South. During, this period of persecution our written records were destroyed. And Portuguese ruled over Nasrani’s for 100 years, in which people older people might not have passed the details to their children as they could have been killed. And those who knew, did create in written record of our tradition and it was communicated orally. Since, there was was major split in era among in Nasrani into Pootukur and Parakur. People would not have bothered to keep records of their history, rather they focused more on the formation of new Churches. From this point onwards, people seems to be pretty confused about the origin. Churches are kind of rebelling against each other in ideology etc. Sarcastically thanks to Tipu Sultan and Portuguese for destroying our tradition and culture.

    I am really thankful for the DNA testing that is available that shows the result that we have middle eastern origin.. for me it confirms it of Israeli origin as there are Cohen group residing among us. Its seems evident that this belongs to one of the lost tribes of Israel. This would confirm that our forefathers were from the lost tribes of Israel.

    Once again please read your Bibles brothers and sisters. During the end times, God will gather his children back to his promised land. And you could the flow of Jews to the land of Israel. Please don’t argue about any predictions, lets wait and see what God of Israel will do. And if we are one of the lost tribes of Israel, we also have the inheritance that God will give. It would get evident in DNA test as it matures and it will get confirmed about our identity. Please do not make any prior conclusion whether we have Hebrew background or not. Believe it or not most Syrian Christian churches still use Suryani language which is dialect Aramaic or ancient Hebrew. Some of Hebrew words are taken as it is Malayalam. Even learn about the history of Malayalam language. Learn your history well before making senseless comments and arguing with each others.

    Grace be with you all.

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  147. Varghese Mani

    I liked your reasons, We Nasrani do not marry from other community, reasons could be more tied with Hebrew tradition as well. That we did not marry from other Converts, I know during any proposal that I had we say we are the 1st Christians and we did not make alliances with converted christian. I think it is not because of the caste, but it is because of our lineage. We believe that we are the first Hebrew or Jewish Christians who accepted Jesus as Messiah or Savior. Though, we are Christians we are still Jewish lineage or heritage. I would think that our forefathers did not want us to get mixed up with gentile Christians and so we would lose our inheritance that God has for the descendants of Jacob (Israel), son of Issac . So, they were strict in keeping that law of marrying from other community and faith. Now, with post modernization; Nasrani are forgetting that they are having Jewish lineage, if someone say that, people would laugh at you. But, seeing the results of DNA testing it shows trace of Hebrew cohen group within our community testifies that. I would encourage Nasrani not to forget their past and follow the traditions that set for you. I know I am talking to myselt as well. Over the year we grow very lenient and forgot the laws and the purpose that were made initially. Our immediate fathers and us have not understood the mystery behind these laws that is embedded in the Syrian Christian community from Kerala.

    Hebrews (Jews) who accepted Christ were termed as Nasrani and gentile who accepted Christ were called Christians. We are to be one in Christ though we are separate entity.

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  148. Dear Bazil,

    Yes you are right. It is similar to the Hebrew traditions, which are backed up by the Bible (Torah) as well
    Note that we have significant Middle eastern DNA Pool, with Cohens. George Mathew is a Cohen that is why you see him defending any Jewish practices with high esteem (just joking)

    Deuteronomy 23 reads about Persons Excluded from the Assembly
    “No one who is [a]emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD. No one of illegitimate birth shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of his descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall enter the assembly of the LORD. No Ammonite or Moabite shall enter the assembly of the LORD; none of their descendants, even to the tenth generation, shall ever enter the assembly of the LORD, because they did not meet you with food and water on the way when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you.”

    not all of us have the jewish lineage anyway (there are some Brahmin converst – I will be pelted with rotten eggs for this, there are some Dravidian/Native converts from the early centuries, when Maveli was ruling, ie before casteism was introduced. ( maveli nadu vaanidum kalam ..mausharellarum onnupole ) and there are some lower caste converts as well). True that we dont (majority) doesnt keep these Marriage traditions any more. Interestingly many of us even dont know what our identitiy is. My cousin had his matrimonial profile with ‘Roman Catholic’ identity. I had to educate him. Sad situation. Isnt it ?

    Check through the matrimonial profiles – most have written about the prospective groom/.bride as – Catholic any, Christian any. Also it is interesting to note that Catholic/Orthodox churches humiliates those who would like to marry across by giving a baptism. Truly disgraceful. Now that most of us are after our job/career people tends to marry late and are often left with no choice and often compelled to marry outside. (lot of pollution as per Mr. Convert.). I am not a big fan of this.

    While some Nasrani are forgetting their Jewish lineage some others are busy forging it. what a fun.
    In your earlier post you have some good facts. But i think there are only 12 tribes. Reason – When Israel was on his death bed Joseph brought his sons and Israel said to him – ‘They are mine. Whom ever you will have after me will be yours’. That was about his inheritance not that they became his sons. Israel had a great fortune hid in the land of Canan which would later be taken by the Israelites. (Psalm 89 says about worshipping the molten image of calf after which the company of Dathan and Abiram are swallowed by the earth – third in their company was korah who had the keys of this fortune). So it is actually 12 tribes, but 14 share of inheritance. (people simply ignores the sons of Joseph after Israel died whey they state 13 tribes.). After this Israel calls his sons and sets them with separate occupations, blessings and curses. (Just similar to Parayi petta Panthiru Kulam ? isnt it ?). Because Judah was strong and capable like a lion he was given the throne. Not sure about who abstained from worshipping the molten calf – I think it is the Levites.

    Sorry for preaching too much.

    thanks

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  149. Dear Convert,
    Thank you for your special compliments. I am not a ‘supermacist or racist’ as you think. How ever I cant digest your ignorance, especially about the society that we live in. Please try to understand one thing that – a marriage is not a simple partnership b/w two individuals, but b/w two families. So it is always better to seek alliances from your own community, in view of social status (that none have any superiority/inferiority complex over the other), family background, culture and language. (when two new tribes are introduced to each other in the wilderness, it doesnt usually end up with some thing good, atleast for the first time. So if you havent tried something new, better never). Now a days these are not truly observed, especially due to time/place/profession/work permits(L1/H1 visa) etc. So the community is more open to marriages from outside. You can be happy now.

    Now there is one more thing that you have to consider before calling me a ‘scumbag’/racist/tree-dweller’ etc. Our families are mostly traditional, where the ladies are incharge of the children and home. Many families are like Libyans under Gadhaffi. You have moderate freedom, moderate prosperity etc.. but if the partriarch says it is noon at midnight it is so. If a son or daughter is found to have a love affair even with in the community, with some one of equal status, then what you see next is the fiery Gadhafi speaches – “Libya shibir shibir, beth beth darr darr zanga zanga hadath hadath…..” . And mostly these outburst are truthful.

    I have no disrespect for Latin christian or any other christian (as long as they dont distort the word of God). I have often felt that the Latin Christian folks have better faith and are more passionate about god.

    But I have no respect for those who mislead families in the name god, in the name of Gold (Evangelist churches misleading people and splitiing up families to total strangers under a roof), those who says we are born again, those who says we are saved. I pity them, true to my conscious, from the deep of my heart, to those who says ‘there are no saints’ for it is written many times in the psalms , to those who says the saints cannot pray for you for they are dead and sleeping in their tombs but we can pray for you while they are still in their flesh full of wickedness of the flesh (For a Christian/Jew/True believer in god doesnt die, but only leaves his mortal body, for he is still alive, For this has been testified when the Christ was with two dead men in the hill – Moses and Elijah who died as he was beheaded by Herod), to those who appoint Gay bishops/clergy, to those brainy who attend their Sacrifices, to those who denies salvation of the unlucky, but living true to his own heart, in the law of Noah written on to his heart (Gandhi, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, athiests, many good hindus etc) by saying that they have to acknowledge the Christ as the saviour and take the ceremonial baptism to be saved, to those who preaches that salvation is for only 121000 and that paradise will be on this planet (Jehovah’s witness).

    yes! I have no respect or regard for these ‘Christians’. All others’ I respect and treat as my equals.

    Also sad that you have some misconceptions about the whole of Hinduism. Hinduism is a way of life or a culture. there are many religions in it, Vedic, Dravidian (see that all hindu gods have blue black colour – Shiva is neela kanta, Ram & Krishna were Blue black in colour), Mix of Vedic Dravidian religion (modern hinduism), ancestrol worship, tribal/pagan beliefs and ‘true faith’.

    What is this true faith that I am talking about ? Check the Aryasamajam. It is about the sole creator, the Only god and true god, forbids idolatry, Its laws are the 10 commandments itself. This is the true hindu religion I believe. everything else is corrupt cocktail.

    God bless.
    Sorry I have preached too much.

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  150. Convert, Christ has died for whole of the humanity and he rose up for us all. So it wont be an abominable sin if you havent acknowledged him for you had no chance to hear about him, provided you lived true to your own heart. He is full of compassion and love. You are never saved by faith alone, but could be by your actions. But truly you have no right to be saved for it is only by grace that we are saved.

    Jai ho.

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  151. Hi Varghese,

    I liked your post. Its interesting when you read the Books of Ezra and Nehemiah (Books in Bible), it talks about returning of some Jews after the exile. It clearly mentions that they had foreign wife’s. And it was detestable to God, the prophet Nehemiah prayed for the exiled Jews who returned and they got cleansed in front of God. Levite tribe also got defiled during the exile, you can read that in Nehemiah. We people got defiled by marrying from other tribes, when you marry from other communities, you tend to take their traditions and defile yours. To God it would be same as it is in those days. We people should humble before God as in the days of Nehemiah as we are understanding the truth of our existence. Thanks to Jesus, who is ready to cleanse us from all the sins that we have committed and that our fathers did.

    And it is 12 tribes, with Ephraim and Manasseh considered as tribes of Joesph. According to the land of allocation Levi tribe dwelt among other tribes and was not allotted any specified land to dwell in. They are supposed to live on tenths of tribe that they lived in. They are one who is supposed to receive tithe from the tribe that they lived in as they were consecrated as priest.

    Grace be with you all.

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  152. Dear Administrator,

    I am really puzzled by the recent news that Keralite Christians belong from West Asia and more particularly from Jewish ancestry. Is it true or make belief ? If it is so then the implications might be huge for Christian Community in Kerala as well as in India and the world.

    Please guide me in this regard with any documents or website .

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  153. To all,

    I do not I think, it is the place for everyone to talk about caste, creed etc. I think most people here believe in Jesus Christ. But one should not forget that he is God of Israel. Some of the people need to understand, some of us have Jewish lineage. Having Jewish lineage does not reflect any caste, but one needs understands that their forefathers are Jacob, Issac and Abraham. And they are a part of household of Israel. And they are ordained to receive inheritance that God has given to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Once again house of Israel is not about Jews alone. Jews come from the Tribe of Judah.

    Some people who do not have that lineage should support people or descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob (Israel). And If you are christian, you know Christ is going to come again. Why is he coming again? He returns when the house of Israel joins with house of Judah and cry out to Lord to save Israel from their enemies. So, it important for Christians to stand with house of Israel, whether they are Jews or Christians. Because Christ Jesus choose that family to glorify himself at the end times.

    One should remember Genesis, Chapter 12, Verse 1-3, we see what God says about His response to how people treat Israel: And I will bless those that bless you and curse the one who curses you. And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    You and I do not have a say, God’s words are eternal and it will not return to until accomplishes its purpose. Let me state some other facts if you learn History. We all know that British was the greatest empire. They pretty much occupied entire world. At that time Britain supported Israel, and helped to form them as a nation. But later it took her support from Israel. Now, you might see the size of Britain. What happened? God took his support from Britain.What happened to Palestine? Every time they attacked, they lost.

    One should also remember that all nations will be against Israel during the end times. Now, you could see only country that is helping Israel is US. And US has started backing out, it scary. US is being blessed because it being the support to Israel. I don’t know what will happen to US if it stops supporting Israel, probably collapse.

    God promised Abraham, Issac and Jacob to take care of their descendants. Its an everlasting promise. Israel is not a religion, its a chosen family of God of Israel.

    If somebody have a hard question why he choose Israel? Then I would ask you, why did He choose you out of Gentiles?

    My beloved people humble yourselves before God, whether having Jewish or non Jewish liineage. Everyone is saved by grace and because Christ died for sins.

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  154. Dear Sabu,

    I am not an administrator. I have been doing research for long enough. This is what I got to understand. Not every Keralite christians have Jewish ancestry. Only Syrian Christians or Nasrani’s have Jewish ancestry. And not everyone who claims to be Syrian Christians have Jewish ancestry, there could have some inclusion of other tribes in the family of Syrian Christians as well. Learn more about the history of Nasrani – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrani

    You yourselves could check the DNA results that are posted here.

    Hope this helps.

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  155. CMH (Cohen Modal Haplotype), LMH (Levite Modal Haplotype) & KMH (Knanite Modal Haplotype – newly discovered)

    These haplotypes are defined by a unique set of mutations with DYS values matching fallowing alleles
    DYS # CMH alleles LMH alleles KMH alleles
    393 12 13 12
    390 23 25 22
    19 14 16 15
    391 10 10 10
    388 16 12 12
    392 11 11 14

    Another haplotype could be defined TMH or KMH1 which is defined by very unique set of mutation and hence the STR values. The DYS Markers defining this haplotype are
    DYS#393 390 19 391 385a 385b 449 464a 464b 464c 464d. Matching alleles are
    12 22 15 10 7 16 26 15 15 16 16

    these are not jokes. You can use Ysearch for matches and you wont find any. Surprised to see that Kna pattern is very very unique. I think the Knas are very unique group(atleast the L knas), probably until there is a Tamil project on ftdna.
    Still not sure whether the name *Knanite* Modal Haplotype is apropriate or not as Thomas of Kana has probably no links to this community. (a more appropriate name would be TMH or ZMH).
    Also the name KMH is already in use (Kurdish Modal Haplotype and Kazar Modal Haplotype). So better use TMH (Thekkumbhagar Modal Haplotype) or ZMH (Zealot Modal Haplotype)

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  156. Ezhava Population is far more genetically diverse than the Nasranis and have almost all of the Semitic YDNAs . They shows considerable Semetic/Central Asian/European ad-mix. R1a has the highest percentage (30%) indicating high Persian/Aryan component, followed by H & L which is just 31%.
    Rest is semitic/European with 5%J2a1, 2%each of J2b2 and J1. Also 4% I2a (Southern/western European) 3% is G2a which is Turkish/Asia Minor but Also Parayar Marker. Another 3% is East Asian Q and roughly 2% E1b1b1.

    This is from a study done by few students at Shri Buddha college Trivandrum. (Not all STR loci were studied, just 9 of them. Predictions are not accurate due to limited no of alleles. The study was clearly aimed at benchmarking the Ezhava population with the Europeans or Brahmins I think. – She cleverly compares the matches on this 9 marker haplotype b/w various populations including German/Turkish and Indian, but all of them Brahmins except Kurumans and Munda tribes. You are assured to get what you look for when applying selective matching, which makes me suspicious of the actual intention being a ‘bench marking’. But this observation applies to the Nasranis as swell. We are also often ignoring the results from the Nair/Menon project )

    DYS# 19 385a 385b 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393

    E02 14 14 18 13 30 25 10 11 14 – E1b1b (71%)
    E23 14 15 17 13 31 24 10 11 14 – E1b1b (97.7%)

    E27 17 13 19 14 31 23 10 10 14 – G2a (84.7%)
    E16 15 11 19 13 31 22 9 10 14 – G2a (95.3%)
    E29 17 14 15 13 29 21 10 11 13 – G2a (52.3%)

    E04 15 16 17 14 31 22 10 11 12 – H (98%)
    E12 15 15 17 14 30 22 10 11 12 – H (99.6%)
    E13 15 15 17 14 30 22 10 11 12 – H (99.6%)
    E17 15 15 16 13 29 22 10 11 12 – H (98%)
    E72 15 15 16 13 29 22 10 11 12 – H (98%)
    E19 15 15 17 14 30 22 10 11 12 – H (99.8%)
    E33 15 15 16 13 29 22 10 11 12 – H (98%)
    E21 15 15 17 13 29 22 10 11 12 – H (98.(%)
    E46 15 15 17 14 30 22 10 11 12 – H (99.8%)

    E57 16 11 12 13 30 24 11 11 13 – I2a (82.6%)
    E68 15 12 15 12 29 24 11 11 13 – I2a (98.6%)
    E61 16 11 12 13 30 24 11 11 13 – I2a (82.6%)
    E37 16 11 12 13 30 24 11 11 13 – I2a (82.6%)

    E24 14 15 19 13 29 23 10 11 12 – J1 (85.9%)
    E70 14 15 19 13 29 23 10 11 12 – J1 (85.9%)

    E06 14 14 19 13 28 23 10 10 14 – J2a1(37%), Q(30%)
    E67 14 14 17 14 32 25 10 11 14 – J2a1/E1b1b (46.4/36.4%)
    E69 15 14 19 13 30 22 10 11 12 – j2a1 (68.4%)
    E20 14 14 17 14 31 24 10 11 14 – J2a2 (55.6%)
    E55 15 12 14 14 32 25 10 11 11 – J2a1 (73.6%)

    E59 15 13 16 12 27 24 10 11 12 – J2b (98.5%)
    E01 15 13 16 12 27 24 10 11 12 – J2b2 (72%)

    E47 14 14 18 12 28 22 10 14 11 – L (99.9%)
    E50 14 13 18 12 28 22 11 14 11 – L (100%)
    E51 14 13 17 14 31 22 10 14 12 – L (93.2%)
    E18 14 13 15 12 28 22 11 14 11 – L (100%)
    E05 14 13 16 13 29 22 10 14 11 – L (99.9%)
    E62 14 14 18 12 28 22 10 14 11 – L (99.9%)
    E41 14 13 17 12 28 22 11 14 11 – L (100%)

    E15 13 12 17 13 30 26 10 13 13 – Q (81.3%)
    E09 13 13 17 13 32 26 11 13 13 – Q (92.8%)
    E54 15 13 16 12 29 23 10 14 14 – Q/T (45.3/34.6%)

    E32 17 11 14 13 30 25 11 11 13 – R1a (100%)
    E11 16 11 14 13 30 25 11 11 13 – R1a (100%)
    E39 16 11 14 13 31 25 10 11 13 – R1a (100%)
    E42 15 11 14 13 30 25 10 11 13 – R1a (100%)
    E52 15 11 14 13 30 25 10 11 13 – R1a (100%)
    E28 14 11 14 14 31 25 10 11 13 – R1a (99.9%)
    E49 17 11 14 14 30 25 10 11 13 – R1a (99.9%)
    E36 15 11 13 14 32 25 10 11 13 – R1a (99.8%)
    E66 15 11 14 13 29 25 10 11 13 – R1a (99.8%)
    E25 15 12 14 14 32 25 10 11 13 – R1a (97.2%)
    E26 15 12 14 14 32 25 10 11 13 – R1a (97.2%)
    E44 15 12 14 14 32 25 10 11 13 – R1a (97.2%)
    E71 16 11 15 13 31 26 10 11 13 – R1a (91.7%)
    E56 14 11 14 14 31 25 10 11 13 – R1a (99%)
    E43 14 11 19 13 29 23 10 10 14 – R1b (52.8%)

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  157. The predictor u used may be outdated or dont have enough south asian data to compare with. E16 and E27 are clearly R2 .Which u have predicted as G2 .E24 and E70 are more likely to be Haplogroup H than J1 . Regarding I2a no explanation is reqd .It is not found in south asia and even in west asia the it is sparse .Those STR’s matches with known R1a1 and C haplogroups .
    Finally Q is not east asian especially the subclade found among indians .So dont reach wrong conclusions with limited data.

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  158. You are right. I used Dr Whit Athev’s predictor which can predict only 23 groups that too is confined three European populations -NWE/EE and Mediterranean. It is far from complete as it cannot list all the subclads and doesnt even predict groups like R2. Note that R2 was identified very recently. This is the latest version and probably most reliable predictor available freely to the public. (last updated in 2009 I believe). Also it doesnt predict many subclads like j2a4 j2b2 r1a1/r1a1a etc, but simply puts it all to the nearest probable group like j2a1/j2b or r1a.
    I am not an expert (just a beginner) in this field and do not have anything of my own. Your predictions may be right, (I also predicted mine at first as it wasnt grouped initially that is why I said I am r1a1a or r1a1a1 but next day it was gropued to r1a1) I havent gone that deep in to these results and since there are 52 samples so I couldnt think about a manual prediction either. (I dont have any other predictor except this one. http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/ ).
    These are just an approximation, but I have used the best possible by selecting Mediterranean (Thiyya’s claim to be from crete which is a recently formulated story ).

    Also Q is the EA marker and 98% of the Hans are Q. Our Qs may be different, probably due to genetic isolation from the rest but Q is the EA (flat nose to be precise as Amerindians also share this group) marker. Again, Q might have developed here independently which is a possiblity as Dravidian nose is usually flat and doesnt have body hair, late greying of hair (these are unique and common among the three – EA, AI and Dravidians, ie. Pulaya, Tamil castes etc, not Dravidian mix – we all have some dravidian blood in us). Dravidians are said to be the mix of Nigritos with others.

    Anyway except those African Hpgs, nearly all of them originated in the ME (Persia/Assyria & Levant) which then spread out from there. This is evident from the Assyrian genetic mix. They have all groups and many look European. Out of Ararat is true (Out of Africa). people who migrated earlier have the highest mix, we all ultimately emigrated from these areas This is evident from low castes like Paraya who are exclusively G2a3b1 (French Royalty was also same haplogroup). And the ezhavas also have high ME component.

    I am not jumping in to wrong conclusions, but making some assumptions, but posting them here. May be I am wrong. Dont know. Need to look in to it more. Hope you have some expertise on this. I have some questions anyway. will post later and if you be able to help that would be great (Jackson seems to be the NSC expert on this matter.)

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  159. Dear mani

    u can use vadim urasins predictor which will give more accurate results (say 75% ) . Its difficult to determine the haplogroups with only 9 strs with 100% accuracy.Also dont associate haplogroups and physical features

    The major han chinese haplogroup is O3 . Q only makes up less than 10% . Since this is out of scope of this site i am not going deep into it .

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  160. In the previous discussions, many people have informed that nasrani Christions have ancestry from Brahimns, Jews, Syrians, Persions, Dravidians etc. I would like to add one more ancestor group for the nasrani christians.
    Like any other part of India, we also had caste system and untouchability in Kerala for centuries. But, the backward communities including Pulaya were given one day of freedom called “Pulapedi”. This day they have all the freedom even to attack higher castes including women. This Pulapedi was abolished by the King only by 1696.
    I am quoting from “Thoma Parvom’ (quoted by P. V. Mathew in his book). An army Captain told St. Thomas, how his wife and daughter were abused by two low class people and because of that the whole family was excommunicated from their religion. Then, St. Thomas baptised them and made them Christians. I don’t know if this is a real story. But, the style of the story appears to be very real. During the past many centuries, similar incidences may have happened.
    When you consider DNA studies, these historic conversions also should be considered

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  161. You could see the evidence of Nasarene in the Bible as well. It is listed in Act 24:5.

    Well, there is no jewish community that is 100% pure. Bnei Menashe a tribe from North east part of India claims their ancestry from tribe of Manasseh and has moved to Israel. http://www.israelreturns.org/ I do not think they are 100% pure jewish/hebrew tribe.

    There is only one thing that determines whether a tribe is Jewish and that is by Levite tribe and further within that tribe is Cohen marker that determines absoluteness of Jewish ancestry or not. One should also note that currently, 10 lost tribes of Israel do not have an identified marker that makes it harder, 10 tribes of Israel are lost and totally lost. So once you have identified a significant amount of Cohen markers among the community, it determines its a Hebrew community.

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  162. Right bazil, see if such a populations live in another land for centuries and there is no such hope of goin back,
    they maintained to live in a new land. some of them did marry other women, and began to mix viseversa
    but anyhow of these jewish blood got, make them stick together doesnot matter their father was orginally jewish or mother is jewish.

    When there is early nazrane (jews) were in malabar if st thomas converted few brahimn families and they should have been intermarried and blood related.
    since its christianiy and bible is from a jewish background and converted understood christ by getting close to jews and .

    That is why jews become the springboard of christianity that it spead through them fast. if there was a huge population of gentiles knew christ without bible and it wouldnot have been survive in malabar over centuries,

    it would have been blend in to other influences and diverted. its not happened because of jewish or early christian migrations and more indian converts came in to it including brahimns.
    so in our nazrane community there is noting much pure but we can trace more of cohen makers present there or not. but that has noting to do with what a person influence. because we cannot manupulate these and it comes from persons personality that we are also jewish influenced does not matter we are technically jewish from father.

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  163. Does it matter if we are pure jewish or not ? Being a direct descendant of abraham will not make you any better than a direct descendant of chingis khan . Much more is there is in our culture which could make u a better human .
    The case you pointed is not only applicable for jews but all populations . No one can claim any pure ancestry . Every culture will absorb foreign elements by different ways ,it may be language, religion ,habits ,food or even people . The only populations which are close to having pure ancestries would me in remote places and would be underdeveloped due to lack of interactionswith others.

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  164. Yes, it matters if you have a Hebrew origin. Having Hebrew origin makes you hires of God’s promises to Abraham, Issac and Jacob. God promised the land of Israel for Israel’s descendant. And bible clearly tells, in those days I will bring my people back to land of Israel after their exiles. There are many bible verses that talks about bringing back his people to Israel.

    Will it really affect us Syrian Malabar Christians? I could say no, because we are Christians by faith and we are saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ. But God has promised Abraham, Issac and Jacob on the land of Israel. So, in other words, it is still going to be yes. Let me try to give you an example, you are son of your father, so which ever part of the world you go or reside in, you still inherit your father’s property because it yours. So, it is the same matter of your inheritance as the descendant of Israel (Jacob).

    As, I was learning our history, I was very disappointed to learn that Portuguese destroyed our history. Though, they destroyed our written history, they were not able to destroy the DNA markers that some of us have. That itself reveals G-d’s Sovereignty and how he kept his people not mixing much with other people around them.

    Its interesting that we are only people who kept the Christianity for centuries strongly and it is because of Jewish custom merged well with the people around us. You could see places like Turkey, Syria, etc. where gospel was preached in first century, but they hardly have any people who believe in Christ. These countries are now Islamic countries. I think, we kept our of faith in Christ and isolated from other Christians, Jews, and other communities because we are Nasrani’s (Jewish Christian) followers of Christ from Nazarene. This is all because we are G-d chosen ones. So as one day his people could move to the promised land.

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  165. 1) It doesn’t matter whether you have Jewish origins as we are Christians.
    2) Only very few were tested positive for Jewish origins.
    3) Portuguese did not destroy any Jewish traditions. There were “no such” Jewish traditions. The Christians of India at the time of Portuguese arrival were East Syriac Christians.
    4) The ultimate destruction of East Syriac Christians of India were done by Protestants among the Puthencoor and Pazhayacoor still cling to some of the East Syriac traditions.
    5) The made up Jewish stories already made some people the laughing stocks as we all know. Let there first be proofs.

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  166. It may not matter for Christians, as they would come to judge the Israel along with Jesus Christ. Yes only few are tested positive, but the key haplogroup for jewish orgin is tested positive though, esp. Cohen marker. Hebrew tribes were lost during the 1st diaspora. With known evidences currently researcher can only track 3 tribes among 12 and those are LEVI, JUDAH(Jews) and BENJAMIN. Rest all are lost and it would be hard to say which markers would reflect their Hebrew existence. All other tribes are lost. Until you find a common marker that will unite LEVI, JUDAH and BENJAMIN, with that you can find a pattern to find other missing tribes. Unless and until there is a common marker among the known tribe, its hard to distinguish others. Presently, only thing that could identify a Hebrew tribe is by Levi tribe, because Levi tribe got distributed among all other tribe during the biblical times. All other tribes paid tithe to Levi tribe and Levites lived among other tribe. So, Levi Tribe is a unique identifier to determine if a tribe is Hebrew or not. (Other example in New Testament: Jesus, son of David, David a descendant of Judah, had a cousin named John (also known as John the baptist,) a descendant of Aaron (a Levite). So Aaronites lived among the Judah tribe and somehow they both were related.)
    Thirdly, I never mentioned that they destroyed the Jewish tradition, they destroyed our history and tradition. It would be great if any could point us to right written documents of our history before the Portuguese era, it will be a great read for all the researchers who are waiting to find the mystery of our history before the known destruction by Portuguese.

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  167. Dear SJ, Thanks for the info. Searching for Urasins brings a russian website, but haplogroup predictor. I will use this. (I had it all stopped for some times. Now Mullapperiyar is the burning issue)

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  168. I took part in the national genographic project and found my y-DNA haplogroup to be R1b, subclade R1b1a2, M269. Y chromosome marker are- M168 > P143 > M89 > L15 > M9 > M45 > M207 > M173 > M343.
    The map traces my origins to western europe. About 80% of men from southern england and 90% from spain and ireland belong to this haplogroup. We hail from ancient nazrani families. What can you conclude from this?

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  169. Hi Syro malabar nasrani

    When did u test with national geographic ? You can import the data to ftdna so that you can compare with all people in ftdna database . Can you provide the STR markers so i can check whether any matches are there with the assyrian people . Assyrians are heavy on R1b but the subclades are different from that of europeans .

    I suggest you to go for subclades test since R1b is very old haplogroup .Some basal R1b is even found in india . We cant conclude anything without knowing the subclades

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  170. Many of you claim jewish ancestry by the results of your DNA . Have you thought of comfirming your ancestry by doing a autosomal DNA test which gives a breakdown of your ethnicity. I did a test recently and it showed I had a breakdown of ASI &ANI. There was no middle eastern though I come from the Cheriya Vadakkedathu branch of Pakalomattam

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  171. 3 individuals who participated in harappa ancestry project (which gives autosomal analysis of south asian people) did show 9-10% southwestasian component which is higher than other southindians . Apart from that the cochin jews were automsomally more similar to south indian people than with west asians . So a jewish ancestry through cochin jews cannot be ruled out even by autosomal tests

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  172. Dear Jewish Brothers and Sisters,

    I read the above post on NSC and the ensuing comments and found it to be thought provoking. I can say with absolute certainty that Syrian Christians in Kerala are Jewish descendants from the Levi and Judah tribes. Now that this ancient mystery has been solved, we must return to practicing the rules and regulations revealed to our forefather Moses stated in the Holy Bible. These have been elaborated in the Books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. We can remain within the religious constructs that we are currently affiliated with and still try to understand and follow the prescribed rules and regulations. We must strictly observe the Sabbath. For a better understanding of what it means to be Jewish and how we must conduct ourselves as Jews we must read and understand Books of the Prophets like Samuel, Ezra, Nehemiah, Isaiah and Jeremiah.

    Nowadays, we hear endless accounts of appalling miseries that plague Syrian Christian families like death of one male child among three male children, disobedience and disrespect to parents meted out by children, widowhood, suffering women, diseases (mainly breast cancer) and divorce amongst several others. This suffering is not inflicted upon us as punishment, instead it is an attempt by Yahweh to draw our attention to the larger issue i.e we need to figure out who we really are and follow the prescribed rules. In Isaiah 3:16, the Holy Bible states that women, while in the presence of Yahweh (whether at Church, Synagogue or at home) must cover their heads. These days, most women neglect to do this even in the presence of high ranking priests and bishops. This is a small example of how Syrian Christians have neglected to follow the rules and regulations prescribed to be followed by the children of Israel.

    In the days of the Old Testament, high priests could directly communicate with Yahweh by way of the Urim. Please read Exodus 28:30; Leviticus 8:8; Numbers 27:2; Deuteronomy 33:8, Samuel Book I 28:6,7; and Nehemiah 7:65. Even today, the Urim can help direct communication with Yahweh. Priests of the Levi tribes were facilitators of such communication. I am a priest belonging to the tribe of Levi and I am in possession of the Urim. You just need to pray to Yahweh in my presence and Yahweh will reply to your unanswered prayers through the Urim. The question and the answer shall remain unknown to me. This is exclusively between the seeker and Yahweh. One can figure out one’s origin and tribe through the Urim.

    These days it is a popular belief among Syrian Christians that after the advent of Jesus Christ the prescribed rules and regulations have been dissolved. This is a false perception. In fact, Jesus Christ has reinforced the importance of these rules and regulations. Please read Matthew 5: 17-22. These verses prescribe the penalties for those who propagate the dissolution of rules theory. So it is in our best interests to embrace tightly and follow all that Yahweh has revealed to us.

    May Yahweh bless you abundantly and lead you to the light.
    Abraham

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  173. I have been observing the Sabbath now for for over a a couple of years. I do not work from Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. I do not touch pork . I learned these customs from my maternal grandmother house as they newer used to cook or eat such meats or fish without scales. I remember they used to observe passover. Nowdays these habbits have died

    http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/lost-in-time.html .

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  174. There is no reliable evidence to think Syrian Christians have any Jewish ancestry. Random DNA tests have no validity or reliability. No reliable published study report seems to confirm that Syrian Christian have any Jewish ancestry. If you go to the Talk page of Wikipedia article about St. Thomas Christians, you can see how such false claims of Jewish origin of Nasranis by self – glorification gang was analyzed and dismissed by neutral editors because of lack of any reliable sources.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ASaint_Thomas_Christians#Jewish_descent

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  175. I like to share this special offer by FTDNA as they are offering a special price for a couple of days see below

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  176. Sitush, you must be the most delusional person on here I have seen. You just made up all those things just to make your opinion look right. Everything you have presented is total nonsense(b.s.). Tell me where names like Gevarghese, Varghese, Yohannan, Kurian, Thomas, Mathai, Kuriakose, etc. come from. Sanskrit was the basis of a lot of languages including English, Greek, and Latin, but definitely not any Semitic languages. Why can’t you except the fact that there were foreigners that settled in Kerala and possibly mixed with the local population? Do you not realize that Kerala has been trading with Mediterranean countries for thousands of years? Look it up, there are historical documents and texts. Are you jealous of our heritage?

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  177. Dear Sitush
    The jewish ancestry in syrian christians is confirmed by the family tree dna test results.They are the best in the feild and results are reliable.There is no need of published studies to confirm this.
    And how does claiming jewish ancestry become selfglorification.This page is created to discusss the test results.and based on results we can claim the obvious jewish ancestry. Wikipedia isnt a reliable site those who edit there may not have the knowledge on the subject

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  178. I recently visited the Harapa project website and found that the ASI average for the cochin jews was 38%. whilst the bene israel Jew was 31%, there was one data for Kerala Brahmin whose percentage was 37% and lastly the Syrian christains average was 43%,There was a difference of 5 % between the cochin Jews and the syrian christains but a big difference of 12 % between the Bene israel jews and christains but not much of a difference between them and the Kerala Brahmins as they orginated from Mahrastra. Data can reveal certain closeness. I was also surprised to find one of the syrian christains had a percentage of 38%. See data below

    GSM536498 behar south-asia bene-israel-jew 29.63%
    GSM536500 behar south-asia bene-israel-jew 30.70%
    GSM536497 behar south-asia bene-israel-jew 30.81%
    GSM536499 behar south-asia bene-israel-jew 32.13%
    HRP0067 harappa south-asia kerala-brahmin 37.40%
    GSM536494 behar south-asia cochin-jew 37.49%
    GSM536495 behar south-asia cochin-jew 37.66%
    GSM536496 behar south-asia cochin-jew 37.95%
    HRP0239 harappa south-asia kerala-christian 38.35%
    GSM536493 behar south-asia cochin-jew 39.19%
    HRP0038 harappa south-asia kerala-christian 43.20%
    HRP0152 harappa south-asia kerala-christian 43.31%
    HRP0117 harappa south-asia kerala-christian 43.34%
    HRP0225 harappa south-asia kerala-christian 45.44%

    Can anyone give any insight to thes data

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  179. Dear johnpt,

    Ref. your post 161975 dated 2 July 2012.

    Please can you give more details?

    I (and I gather some others too!) are not able to understand your comments.
    I do understand that Harrapa is considered by many as part of the Indus Valley Civilization.
    Perhaps the several percentages you state relate to the ‘closeness’ or ‘distances’ between certain groups to those of people now alive and living around Harappa. Am i correct?

    The Cochini Jews have a large distance from the ‘standard’ and the Suriyani/Nazerenes have a 45% difference from the standard. This kind of very vaugely means that the Cochini Jews are closer to those around Harappa than we are. Correct?

    Your post appears very useful for us. But more information please!!!

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  180. Harappa is a project maintained by a Pakistani researcher, researching on genetic mix up of various communities in South Asia based on Autosomal Chromosomes (23*2 per individual – 23 are sleeping/silent ones which explains why children inherit features from grandparents/relatives which arent often reflected by their parents)
    ASI – Ancestral South Indian
    ANI – Ancestral North Indian

    So far only 1000 individuals have participated in the project and any results are inconclusive for most of the communities except those that appears monolithic (eg – Iyer, Irula etc). For rainbow communities like Nasranis/Nairs/Ezhava/Namboothiri/Kna/Gujarathi/Baniya/…… (99% of those participate) results are/will remain inconclusive.

    Eg of Rainbow community (Baniya)
    Ambani Family – Mukesh (Moderate Fair/Dravidian Looks) – ANI/ASI should be 40/60 where as Anil (Very Fair – Aryan Looks) may have 70/30 . But they are brothers

    JP Gaur – ANI/ASI (25/75) – He is a black toad (Sorry! no insult here – just Anglicized the malayalam word ‘karimakkan’ denoting excessively dark person.)
    Manoj Gaur – ANI/ASI – 65/35 – He looks like Bollywood actor Akshay Khanna
    But they are father and son

    So does it prove anything ? Nothing.

    That simply shows one thing – how a particular individual/family/ (community if the no of samples are high enough) is genetically constituted (autosomal).
    Even if two individuals match exactly, they may look entirely different.
    Eg – Both have ASI of 30%, but one has thick upper lips and silky hair where as the other has thin upper lips and curly/stronger hair. So a match doenst prove anything and a mismatch doesnt dismiss anything.

    But the methodology itself is corrupt. They simply divide the genetic make up to ASI and ANI. What about the AEA (Ancestral East Asian) mix up ? Going eastwards – Bengalis for example are having ASI + ANI + AEA which isnt used here. Mamata has a great amount of East Asian features.

    But the list proves one of my long standing doubts – Qatar Emir is a dravidian – He has a dark skin tone (Moderate Fair/Fair ?, not very fair) and looks exceptionally Dravidian. In Lungi and shirt he should look a Kappachettan

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  181. I wish that some leading bloggers of Nasrani net will lose their “jewish” delusion. If you really want to be Jewish convert and then apply for a Isareali citizenship. This is a theme I was disgusted with ever since I came across this site some years ago. So far they have not invited you over, have they?
    There is nothing to be ashamed about our Dravidian roots. You don’t even need to count on “brahmin convert” theory to explain teh occasional fair skin that you see among Nasranis. if you observe most fair skinned subjects live in the area where Portugese had business – the same population is very well settled in business and finance still. The darkest people belong to Orthodox/Jacobite clan who really did not have any connection with any foreigners.
    Then there are certain groups who had historical basis with middle easterners, including Persians and southern arabic christians (knanaya). I have seen many fair Syrians in Kollam Kundara area as this is were we had many Persians settled.
    Knananaya itself a term coined in the last 60 years. Kaana was a port in Yemen. The Thomas was a southern arabic merchant. Knanaya brothers must stop churning out stories. If you really don’t want to be St. Thomas Xians, ask Israel for citizenship.
    Most importantly, the Jews of this day may not be even the same population that existed at the time of Jesus. After the destruction of temple, the population was spread out and mostly lost. There are many groups which contributed to reemergence of a Jewish culture – from Kazaria to Yemen. Yemeni jews are coverts themselves and they has a Jewish kingdom in the area before the rise of Islam.

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  182. Dear Varghese,
    Qater Emir certainly looks South Indian or even Malayalee, but he is a real big guy, tall and hefty. South Indians do not become that big. He is certainly semitic and there are lots of Middle Eastern blood in South India. It is from the Middle East to South India where the blood line moves and not from South INdia to the Middle East. Many in India, think that Middle Eastern people are fair, tall and have sharp features. This is a myth. The whole subject needs thorough cleansing. Who is an Arab, atleast historically. Is a Syrian an Arab? Is an Babylonian or an ‘Urian’ an Arab? Is an Egyptian an Arab? For sure, a Saudi is an Arab, a Yemenite is an Arab, but is a Lebaneese an Arab?
    ******************************************
    I just read about one person in this forum judging European or non-Europeaness based on appearance (Thiyya matter). It is totally wrong. 1000 of Chineese or Mongoloid looking people have left to Israel from Mizoram, India as “JEWS’ though their paternal DNAs are not matching with paternal Jewish DNAs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFxHiYe_tgM
    Highly black people called the Black Lamba of Rhodesia have Cohen DNA.

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  183. varghese mani

    U seem to be ignorant . I cant understand what u want to prove

    The autosomal analysis will give a fairly good idea about our ancestry (it is not a predictor of how do you look ). Again what is the need for commenting about somebodys looks and making unnecessary remarks.

    The point is even if the people may look differently (like u said ambani brothers) they could have similar ancestry .

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  184. Regarding Harappa ancestry project

    In the latest admixture calculator released by harappa the major components of the kerala christians were

    South Indian 50%
    Baloch 35%
    Caucasian 7%

    The South Indian component is the genetic component which peaks in south india especially in the south indian tribals like irula ,paniya etc. The baloch component peaks among baloch .
    Both south indian and baloch components are found at varying levels in south asia . The south indian component increases as we go south and baloch component increases when we go northwest

    The caucasian component is a west asian like component which peaks around caucasus. In south asia it is found at significant percentages in northwest groups like balochs ,sindhis ,pujabi jatts etc .Though it is found at lower frequencies(around 2-5%) in south indians

    So in all the results shows we are overwhelmingly south indian barring a slightly higher caucasian which we can attribute to the west asian migrants dna is us.

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  185. i think the orthodoxy christians are the middleastern people mingled with dravidians.
    more that we try to prove, whoever they understand the middleasternism they can feel that. even nasranis people live aboard other foreigners appoache to them are u egyptians. or after a while ya u are an indian. throught hinduism there are aryani white influences came up to kerala. but the arayanism doesnt have a clue of middleasternism. they are somekind a decendents of europeanism.but i do believe that there can be brahimns also converted to syrian christianity in ancient times. and they might have also had wives from middleastern who r become keralites.

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  186. People here seem to be concerned more with looks than the real ancestry . I think it may be due to stereotyping of south indians are dark . So any guy with lighter complexion tends to think he is mixed with some other people and try to invent things like they are descended from the middle eastern people and they got their light features from them.
    we do have some middle eastern ancestry as it is evident from genetic tests but it is rather low and there is no need to exaggerate it .
    Regarding rps comment that syrian christians would have taken middle eastern wives . So far there is no evidence for that .Even the qnanaya people doesnt seem to have any middle eastern mtdna .Our mtdna results at ftdna project are so far only indian .

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  187. That it the reason i am saying what we end up is looks. because even if middleastern forefather taken dravidian wife and the they have 10 daughters then their mtdna is ofcourse indian.but due to these marriages those daughter does have father middleastern features.
    i dont think there is a confusion to figure out its is so hard to say syrian christians have nothing to do with middleasterners. there are ancient muslims jews and syrian christians are semitic. than something is complety indian.
    if we analyse northindian hindu people we can easly see they are aryan sanskit people and no clue of semitic. but that is not in the case of ancient keralite muslim jewish syrian christian nature. their long think nose, beird, eyebrows look more semitc with dravidian influences. i think the middleastern can recognized us. because its same thing happen in somilia egypt etc etc. middleastern with african influnces. but yes some family are rooted in brahimn ancestry. even if they marry suryanis yet their y side came from a brahimn forefather .

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  188. “I wish that some leading bloggers of Nasrani net will lose their “jewish” delusion. If you really want to be Jewish convert and then apply for a Isareali citizenship.”

    >>I believe I am not sick of my being. Happy to be what/who I am & not too retarded to believe that I am jewish. But nothing wrong in feeling that just as most of the old nasrani stock I too have (atleast) a few drops of Hebraic/Hebrew blood running in my veins given P.Mattoms are genetically proven to be so.

    “There is nothing to be ashamed about our Dravidian roots.”
    My visit to yogakshemasabha website tells me that “We all should be proud of our Dravidian roots”.
    The ‘We’ here constitutes Namboothiri-Nair-Nasrani-Ezhava-Kakka-Tulukkan-…..Paraya .. all.
    & I am proud of being a dravidian & so should you be. When the whole of western/norther europe was subjugated by the Romans, we were trading with them.

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  189. You don’t even need to count on “brahmin convert” theory to explain teh occasional fair skin that you see among Nasranis. if you observe most fair skinned subjects live in the area where Portugese had business – the same population is very well settled in business and finance still. The darkest people belong to Orthodox/Jacobite clan who really did not have any connection with any foreigners.”

    >>Fair enough. Fair skin means whoredom. Dark skin means servitude & slavery.

    log out

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  190. “arabic christians (knanaya)”

    I see where you are coming from.
    I can read the desperation from your post.

    the question here is how does the term knanaya get coined from kaana ? No chance.
    By the way is meenachilar & Periyar in Yemen ?

    I have seen many Jacobites who are of very fair/ fair / medium / dark complexions though majority of them are of fair complexion (atleat 65%). But the FACT is I have never seen a dark skinned Malankara Orthodox member. Almost 80% of those whom I know / have met are having very fair /fair skin tone. Though I have heard that there are many Orthodox people in Kumily & rest of Idukki who are of medium skin tone, once I met a Delhi based orthodox family from Kumily on the train & needless to say they were of exceptional Northy looks & would easily be mistaken to be from Kudagu/Coorge.

    Where did they get those features from ?

    If you ask people of the past generations about Koonan Kurishu Sathyam they would say ‘The community was split & most of those went to Puthenkoor were of higher ‘Kuleenathwam”

    Emmarcee is desperate to disprove something. I am unable to help.
    But emmarceeji isnt alone here.
    Earlier there was an idiot claiming that the Malai Arayans are mostly fair skinned because of British missionary work. Malai Arayans regardless of Hindu/CSI Christian are fair skinned. Some of these people believe that ‘Missionary work’ means extra marital affairs ? What a pathetic mind set ?

    I am planning a survey now.

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  191. Dear Sj,

    I withdraw those offensive comments.
    But what I said and you said are the same –
    You said “The point is even if the people may look differently (like u said ambani brothers) they could have similar ancestry”. And that is what I said.

    But the point that I was trying to convey is ‘You cannot rely on autosomal DNA to prove your ancestry beyond 4-5 generations’. Because the process of natural selection can ensure that you dont carry any traces beyond a few generations. 23 from each side -> 46, but you pass only 23 to your child which can happen to be from just one of your parents (see the examples that I have given – 100% agree that looks arent everything, but they tell us atleast something.). There is no assurance that a child will inherit all of the dna from the grandparents equally – it varies. It isnt a fanciful 25% : 25% : 25% : 25% . The process is suppressive – just by taking the 25% of 46 shows us the imbalance – you cant have equal contribution from your grandparents.

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  192. I wrote – “just as most of the old nasrani stock I too have (atleast) a few drops of Hebraic/Hebrew blood running in my veins given P.Mattoms are genetically proven to be so”

    I mean the mixup of the Syrian Christians ensures that ….. (I dont belong to the house of P.mattom)

    “Even the qnanaya people doesnt seem to have any middle eastern mtdna” – This is unwarranted & offensive to some.

    “Our mtdna results at ftdna project are so far only indian .” – Mappilai means ‘groom’ or ‘son in law’.
    Persian / ME immigrants came here to settle only after the advent of Sharia & Dhimmi laws – Islamic onslaught caused many to sail southwards to the Malabar coasts & most of those who left were stripped of their women & children. Women & Children were easy to be converted & in those days there werent any WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction) but only WMPs (Wombs of Mass production) – Frequent wars means Demographics played a big role – See how the Parsis have indian mtna (their version of the story is the women fought with the Rajaput army when the men were away and got slaughtered – Rajputs didnt knew they were fighting women as they wore masks, but it is more likely that they too were stripped of their women folks)

    So even if you have ME / Persian immigrants in your community it is unlikely that you would find any traces of ME specific mtdna

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  193. ” This is a theme I was disgusted with ever since I came across this site some years ago. ”

    Not as disgusting as your comments. They are really disgusting & demeaning. Have you ever seen a Nasrani. I think Nasranis are of fair skin tone – atleast 50% of them (I quote this around 60%). Considering that there would have been a 1000 Portuguese men on ground at the Malabar cost (European armies were mostly mercenaries – local recruits) – mostly Cochin they should have no other business other than procreation if all these Nasranis were their offsprings.
    Again, Portuguese were around the ports of Cochin & Kollam, but most of the frequency of a fairer skin tone highest among the Changanachery & Thrissur dioceses ? Any explanations ?
    Also the Portuguese were kicked out by the Dutch in 1663. So they have done good job in just 4 years. Great.

    Note that the Name Nazrani here applies to 36-38Lac people only (32.5-35.5 if you discount the Knas)

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  194. “Regarding Harappa ancestry project

    In the latest admixture calculator released by harappa the major components of the kerala christians were

    South Indian 50%
    Baloch 35%
    Caucasian 7%”

    This is funny.

    No of samples is 3 – that is ‘THREE’

    And you have successfully judged a community that covers anywhere b/w 3.2-3.6 million with just 3 samples. Those 3 samples tells about the autosomal breakup of those 3 individuals, not even their family members.
    I agrees that you are highly informed about the DNA stuff, but it is too premature to be a valid sample set. Please refrain from making any such assumptions untill a great no of samples are available – say atleast 3000, if not 30000.

    Same is applicable to drawing conclusions about the YDNA make up of the Nasranis from 80 samples (Earlier I did so). Samples are not enough, but luckily for those who have tested, their results applies to their families as well as the YDNA isnt like autosomal ones.

    I believe Dr. Mini should take some initiative in DNA typing all Syrian Christian Families (After all it is free of charge & she is determined to trace our lineages)

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  195. Dear Mathai (George Mathew),

    I agree with your observations. Frankly, I too have made similar observations. We often start steriotyping people after seeing few people from a particular community ( often the privileged ones).
    We often see people boasting about their deceased Grandma of having had ‘Kashmiri skin tone’. This is really funny when you look at who is a Kashmiri. Only the pundits are that fair. On the other side of the LOC is Mirpur and Mirpuris form majority of the UK Pakistani Population. But you will wonder when you meet a Mirpuri and he says to you that he is from Azad Kashmir – Yes! he is a kashmiri, but could be dark as a Tamilian. atleast 40% of the Kashmiris in the UK are medium/dark skinned – Almost all of them have oval shaped head etc. Also the majority of Pakistani Hinuds are dark skinned & so are the Mujahirs or Indian Immigrants. But the native Pakistanis are also dark skinned by a vast minority, but we never see any unless there is a flood/bomb blast and a TV coverage of that incident comes out. We only see those who are wealthy and upwardly mobile who tends to be of the traditional upper class (converted from the brahmins). Hindus in Trininad & Tobago are mostly sindhis – Hindus and they are very fair skinned.

    So anyone can boast of their grandma of having had ‘Kashmiri skin tone’.

    I mentioned here about Dr.Nelliat’s boasting as he tries to twist the facts to his on convenience – L hapogroup is from Europe. I dont have any disagreements over the fact that looks doesnt give you any clue about your Male Line – Your ancestral origin.

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  196. “But the FACT is I have never seen a dark skinned Malankara Orthodox member”

    ROFL – that was invented for this post. ‘nough said.
    I am not Kna and I fully – 100 percent- beleives that those people trying to connect a Jewish root for Knans are misguided at the best. This is not different from all the Kerala Christian family trees start from some Brahmin Illam or a “Rajakudumbam”.
    I agree with you. We should be just proud about who we are. We were there before those upper Iranians and Scythians started moving to Indus valley. What they he – we even have our own language writing system developed independent of Phoenician system. Before Christ Roman ships were coming to our ports. Tamil kings took our culture all the way to South Asia.
    Nobody is less than anybody else. It is mostly the geographic location dictating how your culture develops. People without contacts to other cultures develop own cultures only slowly. Kerala Christians were on our own for many centuries. But still we kept our identity. We are fine.
    Do not feel so bad about intermingling of white blood. These things happen in this world. Do you know that a lot of Ezhava families in Kollam area are very very fair. Similarly I know converted CSI families in Kollam who are actually very fair. I am not putting anybody down – some of them are my distant cousins. But , definitely this is not a miracle. You just have to open your eyes. Similarly, who knows how things were 400 years ago when Portugese had strong presence in Central Kerala?
    Do you think Mammootty looks like that since his genes came from pure Dravida? It is intermixing. You can accept this in case of Muslims, but not in case of Christians.

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  197. Dear Mr. Varghese Mani,

    You wrote ‘>.>>Fair enough. Fair skin means whoredom. Dark skin means servitude & slavery…”

    From the point of view of Anthropology, you may be wrong. The Ottoman Empire and other pagans show us history and results totally opposite to what you said above.

    10000s of female slaves were imported from Slavice countries like Belares, Bulgaria, Czec etc. to the Islamic and other pagan countries to be taken poccession by rich men. The children born out of such union were ofcourse fair. So from anthropology, fairness is connected to slavery.

    10000s of male slaves were imported from African countries like Sudan, Somalia, Cameroon etc.. to the Islamic and other pagan countries to be taken poccession by rich men and women. The frist thing usually done to them was to castrate them, so that they do not reproduce their blackness and to subdue their sexual hunger while as slaves. Black men as eunuchs were commen. So here we find blackness not being propogated, which inturn means that blackness when and where present may mean that there is little or no slave connection or heritage.(in the USA, castration was not done but commen in the Ottoman Empire and Middle East.) Many to most of the males died during and after castration, but the survivors commanded high prices in the slave market. So, if you see any one black or darkskinned, he is most probably free of slave heritage. Simply put, black slave men do not reproduce.

    I think you got the issue upside down. However, what I wrote above, does not apply to the USA and Canada where castration was generally rare or never done. Very painful reading but this is reality.

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  198. I had a neighbour …Mr.Saju Koroth…He was a Syrian Christian and they were pure vegetarians …the church denomination they attended was the” EEYOMAYAM ” church i was astonished to hear something new from them, they had just a minority population just somewhat close to 400 people in total as per his knowledge…he says many are scattered outside kerala and are successful in bussiness…”They were too fair much more than an average yellowish- fair Syrian”…Do anyone have any information regarding them …Those days i did not knew anything about our origins and topics of this sort and now i dont have their contact number to ask them.Please if anyone can them come forward with your comments.

    Varghese Sir,Your comments are good,i dont know why people are always more keen in tracing a pure jewish lineage ,syrians are mixed population ,the origins may be different we can just believe the folklores now ,yes it may be true that the literate masses in AD.52 were been baptised by St.Thomas may it be thread wearing Aryans ,Jews ,Bussiness class or dravidian sages,its a fact that all are mixed genetically now,many non converted by St.Thomas have even penetrated into this fold in the due coarse of time. On anthropology , …I have seen that a pulaya hindu looks similar to a Nair or Namboothiri fair in skin tone….But a Cheramar Christian “both from the same stock “looks more darker and negroid…..I have done a research on this u can visit the matrimonial sites “one of the easiest ways ” …My point in telling this is that in pre independant india Hindus of higher soceity had sambandhams (a casual marriage or can be described more clearly as concubinage) with those of lower castes hence it is obvious that a pulaya looks fairer and had more genetic infileration ,Cheramar lot is still dark this is an example that syrians did not mingle directly even being a patrilineal section ,i think cultural ethics was more prevalent in the syrian lot.One or two stray cases are ok.

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  199. Dear Mani,

    The autosomal analysis of syrian christians is from 5 samples . This is not enough but not a bad sample either . Unlike ydna the autosomal dna cannot undergo extreme drift unless our numbers are so small which is not the case .
    Our dna is made up of so many recombining parts or segments . It is not like we are inheriting one chromosome from our father and one from our mother .Both our chromosomes contain parts from our father and mother .So if we consider our ancestors 10 generations ago(which will amount to 1024 people) and if all of them are unrelated we are getting only less than 1%(actually even less than that from our ancestor 10 years ago) . The autosomal results of siblings wont be much different since they are also inheriting fom the same gene pool.

    Since our five samples in harappa project doesnt give much different results it could be seen as the norm . The results can be very different for any another person unless he is from an inbred group within our community (like knanaya christians or church of the east members who doesnt marry outside their community and they are relatively smaller in number)

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  200. how is my statement about mtdna unwarranted and offensive .I just told from what is available to us . The only west eurasian mtdna found in us is U1 and that is not limited to christians either .Though we can say the migration was mostly male mediated since most of the emigrations was from merchants . But at the same time the mappila muslim community who also claim middle east ancestry do have west eurasian mtdna like H,HV,U3 and T1 though only around 10% .
    Regarding kna mtdna though they have no middle eastern mtdna most of them belong to one typical lineage which could be due to drift but none the less surprising.

    Regarding portugese ancestry . portugese ancestry in syrian christians is nil. I cant even think a self respecting syrian christian contemplating a marital alliance with portugese . If at all it had happened it would be with portugese men and native women and their offspring would be lablled as porugese or anglo -indian (or some thing like that) but defnitely not syrian christian .

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  201. Hello all

    i am a Knanaya living in South Africa, i have been following the discussions about Knanaya for some time. i know this probably the right discussion but being only 16 years old i have no idea where one can get a DNA test. can someone tell me where you can get them done?? e.g hospitals(which i doubt) or whatever.

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  202. SJ,
    Thanks dear,for correcting me and giving me the info.Its a missionary church, right ???not with a syrian ancestory..ok

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  203. I just want to thank everyone who posted and the creators of this site. I have been yearning for this type of reading for quite some time. Thank you for this plethera of knowledge.

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  204. These test results are interesting but the only problem is are we interpreting them objectively as one part of our population strongly desires ‘ jewish ‘ origins and another ‘ brahminic ‘ origins.

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  205. Dear Brothers & Sisters,

    It is very interesting to read the comments. It was very informative. I realized that as human beings we all seek to be part of something bigger, we seek to be part of something great. In the process we fail to realize that the biggest thing that we should be proud off is in the fact that we are all part of humanity.

    I am not a geneticist. However, common sense makes me believe that we all are genetically mixed up sometimes out of choice and some times out of no choice. Christianity accepts any human being into its arms. This must have resulted in so many genes from around the globe into our gene pool. For this very reason, looking for DNA evidence to trace back community ancestory may not yield consistent results among our various brothers and sisters. A better approach might be to track back on your individual or family based DNA.

    It is sad to see that so many people wants to get associated with the west, high caste, white skin etc… I wonder why can’t we be proud of that gene in our body from that one ordinary local man or women from Africa/India. There is no shame in having the gene of that one tribal woman. She might have been our great great ..great grand mother and she lives even today through us.

    Continue the quest for your origin with out prejudice towards another human being.

    Good Night!
    Arun

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  206. Thank you Arun for those kind words. I am in total agreement with you.

    Isn’t it about time people stopped trying to claim ‘whatever’ heritage. We are Indians (wherever we are) and should be proud of our diversity.

    Using science to try and prove that we’re part of someting special is so wrong and so un-christian.

    The J2, CMH crowd totally miss the point.

    Best wishes.

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  207. Dear Dipak,

    Politly, let me say that it is you who miss the point. There is no body here who is claiming that he or she is superior over others because of his/her traditions or DNA. In the past, we wrongly accepted as ‘our hertiage’ one that is not ours at all. This is totally unacceptable. We are no more willing to hold on to lies and half truths.
    The information available to us today is immense, something which our forebears could not ever imagine. We are making excellent use of this. Thanks to the web and the internet. Or rather thanks to the Jews for giving the world the web/internet/intel/computers.
    Be patient, don’t jump to wrong conclusions without knowing facts, we are not idiots or evil people to promote racism.

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  208. Myself a Syrian Christian from Kunnakulam – Kerala, gave my DNA for tesing to the Genographic Project. (Geno 2.0) The paternal results (L-M357) were a bit surprising as sufficient data is not available and much work needs to be done.

    The data for my paternal y chromosome is given below (L-M357)

    ====== From National Geographic Results page===============

    Branch: M357
    Age: 5,500 – 10,500 Years Ago
    Location of Origin: South Asia

    This group expanded from their homeland in South Asia, but the steep mountains that form the Pamir Knot stopped the expansion of this lineage. It forced them to turn and push toward Central Asia and the land of their distant ancestors.

    Today, geneticists have found it in decreasing frequency from Central Asia toward the Mediterranean. It is about 12 percent of the male Burusho population, 7 percent of the male Pashtun population, and 1 to 2 percent of Georgian male lineages.

    Note: This branch is not accompanied by a major movement on the map, and research on this branch is continuing.

    =============================================================

    It looks like at least some Syrian Christians in Kerala have links with pashtuns of Afghanistan than namboodiris of kerala. :)

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  209. All of us are proud Indians. But it does not prohibit us from seeking our roots and heritage. All humans belong to one big family, spread into different branches. According to statistics every living human being is a 100th cousin of everybody else and nobody is superior or inferior to anybody else. Bible itself talks about the family tree of Jesus. Knowing one’s ancestors and knowing where they lived etc is part of our self knowledge. Modern science now enables us to trace back our ancestry (paternal or maternal) to any number of generations. If modern science throws light on the ancestry of Syrian Christian community of Kerala, it is a matter to be rejoiced.

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  210. Dear Kunnamkulam Boy,

    You wrote ‘..It looks like at least some Syrian Christians in Kerala have links with pashtuns of Afghanistan than namboodiris of kerala..”

    You meant it as humour, but be assured that some authors and reasearchers are seriously linking the Pashtuns with the Israelites, including the Malabar Nasranis. Check out Abraham BenHur’s book. Until Islam came to Afghanistan, there were Nasrani churches in Afghanistan. There is poor research work on this subject.

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  211. Mr Kunnumkulm Boy,

    L has a very interesting distribution: as you can see its lower Pakistan and Kerala. Whats common? with regards to the Saint Thomas legend ;-)

    Also he druze community of the middle east has this haplogroup. Also the Knanayas seem to have this group in some %.

    We cannot draw any conclusions just observations.

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  212. Yes I do think about something special about Syrian Christian ancestry. I would not say why we should have a concern about our ancestry. there is nothing wrong with this. where is our heritage come than we traditionally thing some local hindus just converted to nasranis and that what we are. but no there is something more about it. Since st Thomas came in kodungaloor and ancient jewish community there we got lot more genetic influences came from some place that we never think its is from. but it may not necessary came from one father side. once there was ancient nasrani community here in kerala later there where many Syrians and Persian and Armenians reached to Malabar and they married in to the nasrani community. so it could j2 cohen pakalomattom families or few others could shape up the nasani community or few more brahimn family in ancient times came and we also have oral history that brahimn married Yehuda sthrikal mean brahimn married to jewish women. hence we hot the indian and Hebrew bond came in nasrani community and later on these Syrian and Persian and Armenian influences added to a community . again it may not came from one fathers side means if an Armenian fathers could have been had 12 daughters and 3 men there 12 daughers could have been married in to other families had a different father orgin. but these influences are spreading out.

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  213. Hi Kunnamkulam Boy,
    Your results are indeed very interesting. Even though Haplogroup L is quite frequently found in India, M357 is quite rare.
    1. However, we do have at least one other Syrian Christian result which is M357+ (N16084 in FTDNA)
    1. There is a known Mappila result from Malappuram (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=ysnp), which is M357+.
    2. Please share the DYS markers, if that is okay with you. I am specifically interested in DYS385.
    Regards,

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  214. Kunnamkulam Boy’s and my origin data are close. We are both 55% Southwest Asia and about 26% Southeast Asian. This may prove the populare theory amongst DNA experts that the israelite immigrants from Southwest Asia who came to Malabar married local Buddhist/Hindu women.

    Famil Tree DNA studies show us of the Cohen DNA and related matters, but National Geographic Geno.2 shows as to where we came from or rather the percentage of various groups we have. Both are neccessary. But personally, I am concerend in that I believe that G_d created the universe and man 6500 years ago (as written in the Bible) while DNA people talk of 40,000 years and more. It is not reconciling. I rather believe the Bible than human beings.

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  215. Dear SJ,
    Interesting. We are all so close as to early origins. Waiting to see more results that are not similar to ours.

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  216. My results are also similar to both of you

    54% Southwest Asian
    25% Southeast Asian
    13% Mediterranean
    4% Northern European

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  217. Posted by Geno 2 results but it has gone missing . Maybe its waiting i

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  218. dear all who looking for family tree history,

    i suggest that,do not waste your money and precious time to find out family tree route.Please help the poor people and orphans if you can ( if you belongs to real nazrani race).

    a marthoma sleeha nazrani

    Post a Reply
  219. Hi johnpt

    Could you share the geno2 infographic and ydna,mtdna too

    Post a Reply
  220. SJ I am unable to download the Geno info as I have locked my self on the account. I hadn’t registered the account which meant that my password cannot be retrieved. I had taken the details down which I posted yesterday. The MDNA is M and the y DNA is H . The Neanderthal was 1.1. I think the test is better value than Family tree as more information is available . I couldn’t get the data through Promethease as the data was not in a format that could be understood. . Try here http://www.promethease.com/ondemand. If you have family tree data then it will be accepted. More people should go for these tests as it helps to understand our gemology and help in the research

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  221. Dear Jinoy,

    One of the basic truths of life is that ‘If you do not know your history, then you are bound to repeat the same blunders made in the past’.

    To understand where we are and to where we are going, we must know from where we came from. This is BASIC and FUNDAMENTAL and there is no room for any disagreement on this premise.
    Bearing the above in mind, is our interest on DNAs. The central figure is Isho, even in our DNA matters.

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  222. Dear Jinoy,

    If it is okay with you to take a family photo of yourself, grandfather (sometimes even greatgrand father) and others in the family, then it Is okay with me to do a DNA test. Both is about wanting to know as to who we are.

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  223. Dear Jinoy
    There are people who are interested in ancestry and genetics for various reasons . For them it is not a waste of time .It is about perception .Not everybody will share your attitude towards everything . Anyways i would have thought your concern to be genuine if i hadnt read the second part of the post and especially your signature as ‘a marthoma sleeha nazrani’

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  224. Dear John

    You can recover your login if you have your genographic ID by registering with them since you havent already registered . if you have lost the ID you cant do anything about it .

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  225. SJ my computer used to remember my geographic id so I didn’t bother to note it.down. Then one day it didn’t bring up the ID any more and that was the end of my results. I did download the file of the snps and noted the data which I was interest in. When I have the time I need to convert it to a format that is recognizable by promethease. Any how I have given u the haplogroups and ethnicity makeup. There is nothing other interesting stuff other than these links

    http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=tools&tool=snp_hg_converter&lang=sv

    https://haplofind.unibo.it/

    http://haplogrep.uibk.ac.at/

    http://nitro.biosci.arizona.edu/ftDNA/Distance.html

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  226. dear nazrani mathai varghese,

    you may have read in bible about our history( nazrani history).I believes the god never look on your past family history and looking that “what you are at present”.Please refer old testimony of bible.Can you check all the saint’s dna are same.I hopes,if you read bible honestly ,you will get the meaning of nazrani and dna study.i am not criticising you,you may right in your point of view.(remind the heirarchy if israel).

    jinoy

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  227. dear nazrani mathai varghese,

    please read ezekiel chapter 18 also.

    jinoy

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  228. Dear John
    never mind if u have downloaded the data .u got everything u need from it

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  229. Jinoy i dont understand your incoherent comment .you are crazy to connect bible and history . Bible is not a history book though it may give a vague idea of the history of the biblical region .You wont understand anything about dna by reading bible . Always keep science and religion seperate it doesnt go together

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  230. Dear nazrani mathai varghese,

    can you check my dna history if possible.please reply

    jinoy

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  231. dear sj,

    i never say that the holy bible is a history book.you wrongly interpreted my word.i don’t have any negative response to dna analysis.The jews had settled every part of world and had come in kerala.I travelled in many countries so far and talked different nationalities also.If you want to know more about nazrani or nazrani history,please refer book .thirusaba charitram ,Fr.xavier Kudappuzha,(available in major syro malabar major seminaries).Please realise that,why i said to refer bible with DNA matter,the god almighty will look into your dna and anciestral roots.He will look after those who trust him.
    please give answer to following question ( in practical point of view)

    1) what you will gain ? (if your dna is similar to jews)
    2) if not,what you will do?
    3) what are main duties of a real nazrani to himself and other?
    4) how you can define a real nazrani?

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  232. dear sj,

    it is very difficult and tough to follow the real nazrani lfe style in present condition according to my knowledge.By finding dna history,we are not going attain anything.

    jinoy

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  233. Jinoy , i personally dont care about having jewish dna .As a whole people who have tested from our community show 5-10% of dna similar to near eastern and caucasus people .Some of it may be ancient and some of it may be recent . We cant tell it is from jews or any other people or simply an ancient relation between people of south india and caucasus . In my case my interest in dna is more scientifically inclined . The chance of full genome sequencing excited me though it would take many more years for that to available at reasonable price . After testing my dna i learned many things which otherwise i couldnt have .so defnitely i gained from it.
    As i said earlier keep religion and science seperate . Knowing your dna doesnt know help in religious life or anything related to it and it is not the point of dna testing . What is real nazrani ? there is no thing like real nazrani . Maybe you are thinking of our ancient traditions or something . Keeping old traditions which are not compatible with 21st century is quite useless .My advice is think above religion and what should i do to be a better human being ? .The religious and god fearing life helps in creating a good conscience in us . But if we tend to do things aganist our conscience (ie to do something even when our conscience tells it is wrong ) then there is no use in being religious.

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  234. The population size of the Syrian Christians is approximately 30 Lakhs. Applying the principles of statistics, we can deduce that the most recent common ancestor (The most recent person who is an ancestor of everybody- MRCA) of present day Syrian Christians lived approximately 22 generations back. In other words, all present day Syrian Christians are at least 22nd cousins. Considering the average distance between generations to be 25 years, we can presume that Syrian Christian MRCA lived about 550 years back. If we go back in the past, further a point will reach when all Syrian Christians at that time, who have any descendants among the present-day Syrian Christians are actually ancestors of all present-day Syrian Christians. Again by statistics, this will happen about 1.77 times the MRCA, point. This means that all Syrian Christians who lived back about 973 years back (AD 1040) and having their line of descendents, surviving to this day, are the ancestors of all Syrian Christians living today. This means that all the west Asians migrations and early conversions has the impact on the genetic constitution of us.( Refer Joseph Chang- Most Recent Common ancestor )
    The percentage contribution of various heritages as revealed by the testing of few Syrian Christians by National Geographic’s Geographic Project, is as follows
    54% Southwest Asian
    25% Southeast Asian
    13% Mediterranean
    4% Northern European
    It is likely to be true for every Syrian Christian, with minute variations only, whatever be the paternal haplogroup and mitochondrial dna haplogroup, which constitute only a minuscule percentage of the genetic makeup

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  235. Dear sj,

    I am involved a lot into DNA. I or others do not recollect connecting ‘DNA with Salvation’. They are both very different. I am involved in DNA matters only as far as study of Ethnicity and history is concerned.

    Post a Reply
    • Dear Mathai,
      Will this y dna test will help to resolve the tribes of Israel as like the gene cohen is identified with levites.

      Post a Reply
  236. Dear Mathai
    I was not replying to you but to jinoy who seemed to link those(or maybe i just felt like that)

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  237. Dear all
    Ftdna family finder is only $99 till 26th july . instrested poeple can use this offer

    Post a Reply
  238. I would like to take advantage of Ftdna family finder. Please let me know what to do

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  239. Hi Ani Mary,

    Sorry to presume, correct me if I’m wrong. From your display name you appear to be female?

    And since you have tested as J1 is that your mtdna (maternal ancestry indicator) then you are talking about, if you are female?

    Please clarify if you are male and if J1 is your Y-dna result? And tested with which company? Thanks, Shlama.

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    • Hi Shlama, Yes I’m 100% female :). Yes, J1 is my mtdna. I tested with a company called 23andme. Didn’t know about NatGeo and the Syrian Christian project. Glad to be part of it. Thx. Ani.

      Post a Reply
  240. I tested my DNA and it is xI1 ( I as in Iceland). To be a Nazrene one should be xI1 or xI2 and to be a Jew it should be J1. Nazrenees and Jews are not one and the same. Nazrenes and Christians are not one and the same. Don’t be surprised, Nazrenes are non-believers. Assyrians and Armenians are mostly R1b.

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    • Dear Admin,

      Could you moderate the above kind of comments in a better manner and keep spam off this valuable site please? Thanks.

      Post a Reply
    • never heard of an XI1 haplogroup, are you referring to Y-DNA?

      Post a Reply
  241. It is good to see that the Syrian Christians are proud of their ancestry.
    Why dont we conduct a DNA test.?

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  242. Has anyone here taken a DNA test yet? I took mine recently and the preliminary findings are I belong to haplogroup J1 mostly found in the Middle East, Eastern Africa and Some groups in India. My lineage is Syrian Orthodox from Pathanamthitta district. I’m waiting for the complete results from the DNA test. Will post the findings.

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  243. Hi Babu Poothakuzhy!

    I am a native of Kanjirapally, and i’d like to know if you are the same ‘Babu Poothakuzhy’ who runs a Xerox shop opposite the Mini civil station, Kanjirapally. Thanks!

    Post a Reply
  244. Hi

    Did you do it through NatGeo? if so, upload into FamilyTree DNA…theres a link in NatGeo results for this.
    After which login to FamilyTree DNA site and join the SYrian Christian project. See the others there :)

    Post a Reply
  245. Hi Sujith,
    I did my DNA testing thru 23andme, not NatGeo. I’m still waiting for the complete results. Thx.

    Post a Reply
  246. I have uploaded the data to FamilyTree DNA from Natgeo site.

    How do we login to FamilyTree DNA site after this? Do we need to pay again?

    Thanks.

    Post a Reply
  247. You should be getting a mail with the login details.
    Login and join the Syrian Christian project

    Post a Reply

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