General Discussion

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93 Comments

  1. Syriacophiles:

    To my fellow lovers of Syriac, here are some great resources:

    1. Brigham Young’s Collection
    http://cpart.byu.edu
    http://www.lib.byu.edu/dlib/cua/
    which contains the full digitized East Syriac and West Syriac breviaries of the West Asian Syriac Catholics of those traditions. I.e., the Chaldean Hudra, and the Catholic/Jacobite Penqitho.

    Note there are two major collections online there:
    1a. The Brown Manuscripts (which contains much Jacobite material)
    1b. The Syriac Studies Reference Library (http://www.lib.byu.edu/dlib/cua/) which contains the texts mentioned above, plus a wealth of other East and West Syriac material.

    2. University of Bonn
    http://s2w.hbz-nrw.de/ulbbn/nav/classification/16431

    where there is a wealth of Syriac liturgical material digitized from various European libraries, including the Vatican library.

    3. The Mingana Collection
    http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Mingana/

    4. http://www.beith-morounoye.org
    Which has much Maronite liturgical material (Qurbono, Shehimo, etc.) online.

    Highlights include:
    -material published from St Joseph’s Press in Mannanam (east Syriac Catholic)
    -material published from Pampakuda Press (west Syriac Jacobite)
    -material published by the Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics in West Asia
    -material published by Rome for Maronite, Jacobite, Chaldean rites
    -the original source text for the Pampakuda Shehimo — which was actually the 1853 edition of the Syriac *Catholic* Shehimo published by Rome — is there too (interesting aside: Fr. Bede Griffith’s “Book of Common Prayer of the Syrian Church” was an English translation by a Catholic priest of the Orthodox/Jacobite Shehimo published by Pampakuda Press. *That* in turn was a copy of an 1853 edition of the Shehimo published for the Syrian Catholics of West Asia (who split from the Jacobites). A perfect example of how the Orthodox and Catholic are truly brothers in faith, with very little other than politics and nomenclature separating them.)
    -a 19th century Indian Jacobite text of various orders
    -material published for the Church of the East by the Anglicans in West Asia

    I would like to note, for those members of the non-Catholic Puthenkoor Churches, that *all* of this material was preserved due to the high interest of the Roman Catholic Church into Eastern and Oriental rites. That is, it was Roman scholars and scribes who acquired this material (even though much of it was “heterodox” in their eyes) and stored these texts unmolested in their libraries.

    The immature Puthenkoor historians should take good note of this. There is a tendency of members of my Church to denigrate the Catholic Church for various reasons, when in actual fact, the Catholics did much good in ensuring the Old Rites were preserved. Judging by this it seems Diamper was an aberration… Contrast this with the work of the Protestant missionaries in Kerala who willfully sought the disintegration of the Orthodox faith by attempting to destroy them from the rites and traditions on up (e.g., the heinous work of Abraham Malpan and his ilk). The Catholic missionaries, apart from minor latinizations, never messed around with the rites and traditions — the substance — of the faith.

    Anyways, Admin, M. T. Antony, and other lovers of the Oriental languages and liturgy: enjoy, if you haven’t already seen this.

    As an aside, it is too bad that Istvan Perczel and the team digitizing the Indian Syriac manuscripts have decided to disseminate their work via Gorgias Press and their allied, *closed* enterprises. The latter is only the latest in a long line of leeches which seek to profit off their heritage (look at the history of the Kharboris MSS and the Younan Codex for other examples of such parasites seeking to pawn off their heritage for dollars… disgusting!).

    Thankfully, the academics of Brigham Young, The U of Bonn, The U of Birmingham have decided to take a more open route, so that we can all see these valuable MSS and old texts without having to line the pockets of disingenuous “publishers” …

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  2. Dear John,

    Thank you very much for sharing those links for all of us.

    It will be useful for everybody.

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  3. Possible Chaldean connections of Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel?

    In Fr Cheeran’s book (see below) he discusses Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel, the bishop who arrived in the 17th century and who was received by the Puthenkoor faction of Archdeacon Thomas.

    Fr. Cheeran states: “The … record that was unearthed from the Thozhiyoor archives was the lengthy order that Mar Gregorios sent to the priests in the Paravoor, Mulanthuruhy and Kandanad churches on the 5th of Kumbhom in 1668. E. M. Phillip happened to see a copy of this order, and he has translated and quoted from it at length. He says this: “Again in our prayer book, in the evening prayer for Thursday, where it mentions martyrs, that is what is written about what the martyrs say: “We do not reject Him or His son … and we become the heirs of eternal life”.”

    Cheeran further states that this prayer is not found in the prayers of the Syrian Church, and concludes that Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel had no connections with the Syrian Church.

    Well, it seems that Fr. Cheeran has rushed to his conclusion too quickly, or is using terminology that is too general. It is true that neither the Jacobites nor the Maronites (both heirs of the West Syriac Church) seem to have this prayer in their daily rites. I verified this by reading my copy of the West Syriac Shhimo (Bede Griffith’s translation), and also checking the Syriac prayers of the Maronite Shhimo: it does not exist in either in any form.

    However, I just consulted Maclean’s translation of the East Syriac daily rites, and there it was — as plain as day — on p 39 (First Thursday, Evening Prayer): the exact same quote that Fr. Cheeran extracted via E.M. Phillip from Mar Gregorios’ purported order.

    So … perhaps some history needs to be revised, since the conventional history is that Mar Gregorios was from the West Syriac (Jacobite Church). It’s always been a little fishy that Mar Gregorios was never accused of Antiochianization: that he left the Malabar Christians to their old rite (the East Syriac) and just provided some ecclesiastical assistance. This is in contrast to later bishops from the Jacobites (Mor Ivanios, etc) who moved the Puthenkoor to a truly new rite.

    If in fact it is true that Mar Gregorios wrote the above in his order, then he was citing from the East Syriac rite. He also did not seem to have changed the use of unleavened bread in Malabar … which seems to imply that Mar Gregorios was a Chaldean bishop (i.e., a Catholic one). Although I’m surprised: I thought the Chaldeans used leavened bread.

    My suspicion actually was that he was a Maronite Catholic bishop — some of the old practices of the Puthenkoor seem to have a Maronite flavor, such as the Kandeela rite that was practiced prior to lent. That is a Maronite practice, that the Jacobites do not seem to practice. So my original theory was the Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel was a Maronite bishop.

    Fr. Cheeran also mentions that when a West Syriac Patriarch (Peter IV, I think) visited Malabar, he attempted to destroy the tomb of Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel, at the very least removing it from its location at the time.

    Anyways, take this for what it is. I’d like to see a copy of this order purportedly written by Mar Gregorios Abdul Jaleel so I can confirm.

    REF:
    1. Cheeran, “The Indian Orthodox Church of St Thomas”; p. 147 discusses the prayer and Cheeran’s belief that it is not of the “Syriac rite”. Further on in the book he discusses the actions of Patriarch Peter and others with respect to further Antiochianization of Malabar, the removal of the tomb, etc.

    2. Maclean, “East Syrian Daily Offices”, p. 39.

    #1 is supposedly available online somewhere; I have the printed text so I can’t confirm.

    #2 is online at http://www.archive.org

    Does anyone know if there’s a list of Chaldean bishops from the 17th century?

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  4. RE: Vestments

    Does anyone have any info on the vestments used in the old days by our Nasrani priests?

    In pictures of Puthenkoor Orthodox bishops, one can see a clear distinction between pre-Antiochizanized and post-Antiochianized bishops. The pre- bishops seem to wear vestments that look western, in fact. However, I’m not that familiar with western vestments so perhaps someone more knowledgeable could confirm (e.g., look at pictures of Cheppad Mar Dionysius, or the various Mar Thoma I-VI bishops). The mitre is certainly not Syriac: neither the Jacobites nor the Nestorians use that headdress.

    There’s also a strange hat that some Jacobite/Orthodox priests wear during processions occasionally. It looks like a cross between a western mitre and the standard Jacobite cylindrical cap.

    How about the Pazhayakoor? What did the old bishops there use?

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  5. Steven:

    I was wondering whether any liturgical traces of the Aramaic Christians you mentioned still exists.

    I used to follow the propaganda that the West and East Syriac Churches are inheritors of Aramaic Christianity, but now that pill is harder for me to swallow.

    RE: my own Church, the West Syriac, it’s easy to understand why. The West Syriac Church is merely a Syriacized version of the Greek Church of the time, with some elements of the existing Syriac Church added in (i.e., Ephrem’s material), and some latter material written by Greek-influenced Syriac clerics.
    This is despite the over-the-top claims of recent Syriac Orthodox Church writers (pieces by Fr. Dale Johnson being a perfect example of this).

    RE: the East Syriac Church, I believe the Gehanta prayers are fossils of some early Jewish prototypes, but it too seems to have been affected by the Greek Church of old (the Synod where the Nicene canons were adopted also decided to adopt the “Western” rite … does this mean a Graecized rite?).

    But what’s the state of the art in Syriac scholarship? Do better fossils of the early Aramaic Church (of Jewish Christians) exist?

    After all many of the Syriac Christian fathers were not Aramaic-speaking Jews, but rather Aramaic-speaking Arameans/Assyrians, right? So their products are like Greek products: the work of pagan converts to Christianity, as opposed to Jewish converts to Christianity.

    Anything from bonafide Aramaic-speaking Jewish converts to Christianity? Or is it all conjecture?

    Thanks.

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  6. My response to John Matthew’s post 26408 did not appear. Should I post it again? Best wishes, Steven.

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  7. 2nd try:

    Dear John Matthew,

    Wow, what very interesting and numerous questions you ask. I wish I could answer them all properly!

    Firstly, as you have observed, Syriac Christianity is extensively Hellenized today. Every church council beginning with Nicaea in 325, then Constantinople in 381, then Ephesus in 431 and again in 449 and then Chalcedon in 451 (etc.) served to increase the Greek influence and the prestige of Greek culture perceived by Syriac Christians, especially the clergy. In about 320 the unique forms of Syriac asceticism started to be influenced by the Egyptian, Mar Pachomius who invented the monastic system we know today. Mar Pachomius’ original model was Hellenized very early. It then spread rapidly to Syriac lands. The first monastery was founded by Mar Awgen near Nisibis before 337.

    With this background, it is not surprising that the Eucharistic liturgy and the gospels were amongst the first things to be Hellenized. (My particular aim is to recover, as far as I can, the Syriac gospel text before it was revised towards the Greek.)

    Happily there are many traces of Aramaic Christianity remaining in the liturgical manuscripts, especially songs and poems. One very ancient liturgical genre is the Sugitha, or Syriac ‘dialogue poem’ which was performed by two people narrating two opposing parts; For example the angel Gabriel and the blessed Maryam (Mary), or Maran Isho`a and the thief on the cross etc. This literary genre is known from Sumerian culture (Iraq) and is therefore at least 3,000 years old. The Sughyatha demonstrate your point that early Syriac Christianity is related to earlier Aramean (pagan) culture. However, the Jewish culture is also evident in early Syriac Christianity. For example, in the early East Syrian church layout, which has no altar. Instead it has a ‘bema’ or raised platform with the scriptures on it, right in the middle of the room – synagogue style. This is very different to the pagan altar adapted for the Eucharist found in western churches. If you have any churches in India displaying traces of this architectural form as they do in Mesopotamia, then you have evidence of a Jewish-Christian (i.e. Nazoraya) heritage which would have been very difficult to erase, even for the Portuguese. Also, the gospel used and quoted by the early Syriac authors like Ephrem of Nisibis and Marutha of Maiperqat has many more Jewish features than were retained when the Greek gospels were translated. I have pointed some of these out in articles and books mentioned on my website at http://www.syriac.talktalk.net/syriac_gospel.html. The widespread Jewish traces found in the Syriac gospel tradition are very strong evidence that early Jewish converts to Christianity were responsible for the initial spread of the faith in Mesopotamia, just as the book of Acts indicates, (Acts 2.9).

    Best wishes,
    Steven.

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  8. Dear John Mathew,

    Reference to your post 26408 regarding Syriac Christianity. The CoE is included in ‘Syriac Christianity and was perhaps a major plalyer.
    I kind of think that ‘Jewish Syriac Christianity’ got wiped out by the 5th Century (accept in Malabar) and CoE was not Jewish Syriacs at all. But was largely Israeli and Hebrew, composing of the 10 Northern Tribes. Please read ‘Antiquities of the Jews’ Book 11, Chapter 5, Verse 2 where Josephus says that the Israelis are so numerous across the Euphrates that they can not be numbered.

    As believers in the Bible, we can not call the 10 Northern Tribes ‘missing’ or ‘lost’ as Esho and his disciples (even unbelieving Josephus) knew where the 10 tribes were.

    Mischief was and is being played when these 10 Tribes are called ‘Lost 10 Tribes’. The 10 Tribes are literally (not figuretively) right under your nose. You being from Kollam, should know well of Mar Sabor related statement on stone, which goes to say ‘… we are from Nineveh…’.

    Is not the probabiity of Mar Sabor being from Nineveh ( from the 10 Northern Tribes that Jospehus talked about being ‘beyond counting in numbers’) very high?… and to boot, Mar Sabor was ‘Nestorian’.
    I am comfortable if you will substitute ‘Israeli (Northern Tribe/Ephraim)’ over ‘Jew’ in your comment 26408. John, you can think this through and is easily wiithin your reach.

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  9. Thanks for your reply, Steven. I went through your site; although I wasn’t able to read the articles at the level of detail they deserved (short on time), I found it interesting that you were finding fossils of (possibly earlier) versions of the Syriac/Aramaic gospels in Syriac liturgical texts such as the Sh’himo.

    I see you’ve used the abbreviated version produced by the modern Syriac Orthodox Church. I think a more interesting source, may be that produced by the Syriac Catholic Church (and also used by the West Syriac Church in India) which can be found at http://s2w.hbz-nrw.de/ulbbn/nav/classification/17267.

    How about the East Syriac texts such as the “East Syrian Daily Offices” and the Hudra. I know the former is online (in English) at http://www.archive.org, and would like to look through it for similar quotes of Gospel texts.

    Thanks for sharing your work with us.

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  10. Dear John Mathew,
    Thank you for your comments.
    There are many quotations and allusions to older Syriac gospel texts surviving in the Hudhra. Should you have time later, I am certain I have referenced the Hudhra more than a few times in my articles.
    19th century translations of Syriac texts into English usually changed the Syriac gospel quotations to match the English versions, so these translations are not very helpful in that regard.
    Please supply a more exact link to the Sh-himo you mean, (the Bonn site references 100’s of Syriac books).
    Best wishes,
    Steven.

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  11. Statues in Nilackal

    According to some web pages it seems that the emigrants from Nilackel in the 13-14th c went to Kanjirapally, Arivathura, and other places. Some claim that the emigrants brought statues of St Mary and St George with them.

    This seems very interesting as it conflicts with the general perception of the east Syriac church as being opposed to the use of statues.

    Any comments.

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  12. Admin, in post 3553, states:

    “Nilackal cross a replica of Mar Thoma Cross – There was an ancient cross found from Nilakkal. A part of which i heard is now at Kuvappalli ( ?) , came from the ruined Christian settlement of Nilakkal. It seems to have had an inscription in Roman or Greek capitals, but that it is so illegible that one can only guess. ”

    Can anyone provide some additional info on this?

    Does anyone know about the Kuvappalli cross, or have a picture?

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  13. RE: Nilakkel

    Does anyone have any deep information on the ruins at Nilakkel?

    What I understand is that there was a large exodus of people, including Nasranis, from Nilakkel around the 12th century. I believe there are families in places like Kadampanad, Thumpamon, Ayroor, and of course, Kanjirapalli that claim to descend from people to emigrated from Nilakkel.

    But what do we really know about Nilakkel? Has anyone seen the ruins? How were the Churches structured? Was the cross at Nilakkel found by Fr Hosten in the early 20th century a “Persian Cross”?

    Admin mentioned that part of that cross is at the Church of Kuvappalli — has anyone seen it?

    I ask because Nilakkel might offer us a fresh look into how our people lived back before we were Latinized, Antiochianized, Protestantized, etc.

    I believe T.K. Joseph wrote a series of “Malabar Miscellany” which talks about Nilakkel; however, I’ve not been able to acquire this. Does anyone out there have access to this?

    What is the state of the art on Kerala Archeological investigations at Nilakkel? I’m sure this would be of interest to both Hindus and Christians — of course, because the Christians of the 1980s decided to act like a bunch of idiots and stir the pot in the wrong manner, perhaps this would not go over well nowadays.

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  14. RE: Origin of MAKANDA?

    I’ve noticed that some Nasranis have the name “Kunjumakanda”.

    What is the origin/meaning of this name?

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  15. Rogation of the Ninevites

    A small reminder that the Rogation of the Ninevites starts this Monday and last 3 days.

    This is an old fast that was observed in the original East Syriac Church of Malabar, as well as in the East Syriac Mother Churches of West Asia. The Jacobites of West Asia (and India) also have this fast, which they acquired from the East Syriacs. So it is common to Pazhayakoor and Orthodox/Jacobite Puthenkoor.

    From an early Port. account of Malabar rites, the hymns of Ephrem were sung during this fast. You can find an English translation available at books.google.com. Just search for: “The Repentance Of Nineveh, A Metrical Homily On The Mission Of Jonah”.

    A small snippet of the East Syriac rites used can be found in Macleans “East Syrian Daily Offices” on archive.org.

    I’m sure Badger also reported this in his tome on the Nestorians and their rituals.

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  16. RE: Archaisms in Malayalam

    There is an interesting article (below). It mentions some archaic terms that the Jews of Malabar use, and it makes the claim that these come from an early era of the development of Malayalam. I was wondering whether:
    1. we have similar terms (see below) in our language? E.g., do the Black Jew terms for God also exist in our vocabulary?
    2. we have similar fossils from the more Tamil era of Malayalam?

    The section that interests me is:
    BEGIN
    Archaisms

    One of the most notable features of Jewish Malayalam is the presence of fossilized elements from the pre-Malayalam layer. These archaisms exist at several levels, including lexicon, morphology, phonology, and semantics. A semantic example can be found in one of the wedding songs: the bride is described as covering her head with three types of flowers that have NaRRam. The word NaRRam exists in contemporary Tamil, Malayalam, and other local languages with the meaning ‘bad smell’. However, in this case the word is used with its old Tamil sense: ‘good smell’. This is just one example of the many elements of Jewish Malayalam that may seem like contemporary Tamil borrowings but are actually archaic remnants from before Malayalam split off from Tamil.

    Another significant feature is the abundance of archaic Dravidian derivatives to denote Jewish concepts. The best examples are names for God, many of which are loan translations from Hebrew. Jews, Muslims, and Christians share the most popular form Thampuran ‘Lord’. Jews and Muslims share Padachavan ‘creator’. But Mulamudayon ‘the one at the beginning’, Oruvanayavan ‘the only one’, Sadakan ‘the doer’, Adimulamvayavan ‘the one who is the root cause’, and Adiperiyon ‘the great beginner’ are words for God used only by Jews. The typical Jewish concept of redemption is expressed by a special word coined from a Dravidian root “mil,” according to well-accepted morphological rules: Milcha ‘redemption’ and Mirchakaran ‘redeemer’ are frequently found in JMFS but are non-existent in general Malayalam. JMFS are full of variants of these two Malayalam words, sometimes altered beyond recognition.

    Because of the frequency of archaisms, an ordinary Malayalam speaker would be bewildered by the opaqueness of JMFS. Even the women who still sing these songs today may not understand some of the words they use. But the linguistic archaisms – as well as biblical allusions – contribute to the speakers’ sense of ethno-religious distinctiveness.”
    END

    ref: http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-malayalam.html

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  17. RE: Church at Haripad

    Does anyone know why the Church at Haripad was (apparently) demolished seven centuries ago?

    Supposedly, there was an old Church there and approx seven hundred years ago it was demolished and “split” into the Church at Cheppad and the one at Karthikapally. There are some family histories online that mention this, although they are scant on detail.

    Cheppad is the Church with supposed 600 year old murals. The murals can be seen online—they are definitely not Indian nor Syriac — i.e., non-Oriental. They are European — which either means (a) the 600 yr old date is false, or (b) the murals were done by people who were the fruits of early pre-Portuguese Catholic missions in India. Item (b) doesn’t seem farfetched: the Catholic diocese of Kollam was founded around that time.

    On that note: perhaps the ancient statues (not icons, statues) of St Mary and St George that are reportedly from Nilackal are similarly related to early Catholic missions.

    And on that note: perhaps this correlates with Admins reference to Greco-Roman inscriptions in Nilackal?

    So … any ideas? Any info?

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  18. Dear Suraj Iype and John Mathew,

    A bit more about Mar Denha and team who arrived in AD 905.

    Niranom Chronicles comment Mar Denha as a Bishop but not clearly designating Rabban, Younan and Maravan as Bishops.

    Younan seems to have been in Kuravilangadu before going to Udayampeeroor. There is a spring near Kuravilangadu church, at the place called Kulakandan Nirappu, called ‘avana kkuzhi’ – Youna kkuzhi- Pit of Younan or pond of Younan. There is local tradition also that there was a monastery called Younakkuzhi ashramam.The presence of monasteries at Kuravilangadu, Edappalli Angamali and Mailappore has been reported by various authors like Paulinus de Bartholomew. It seems that Younan was a monk came with Mar Denha. Niranom Chronicles comments that the person called younan was buried at Udayampeeroor church. It doesn’t use the word Bishop or Mar.

    Maravan seems to be an Arabic common name wth meaning ‘Good Rock’ or ‘strong rock’. ( I have a friend called Maravan who is an Egiptian.) Maravan is also not designated as a Bishop in Niranom Chronicles.

    Ref for information about Younakkuzhi Ashramam- Rev Dr Georger Kurukkur, Punya Purathinamaya Kuravilangadu Palli -The Holy and Ancient Church of Kuravilangadu- pp59-60)

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  19. Dear All

    The site was down for the last two days, as it was hacked. It is fully restored now. Sorry for the inconvenience.

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  20. I need help from you readers as I am currently looking at Pakalomattom Kudumba Charithram and am trying to find the heritage of Cheriyavadakkedathu family as it originated from Kuravilangadu in Kottayam district. From the information gathered from our forefathers and many other resources, cheriya-vadakkedathu got its name from Kuncheriya vadakkedathu (Cheriyan vadakkedathu). Kuncheria was the youngest of four brothers in palli-vadakkedathu branch of Pakalomattom family. These brothers moved to the southern region and reached Omalloor, Kidangannoor, Thumpamon and Kuriannoor respectively. All of them maintained their family name “Vadakkedathu” in the new place. Kuncheriya married daughter of Kuriannoor Pulikkakuzhiyil Tharakan and settled on a piece of land that he got as a gift from the then ruler of the land “Aryattu Kovil”. This land was named Cheriyavadakkedathu. Kuncheriya had 4 sons, Kunjoommen, Varughese, Abraham and Mathai. Has any of you help me to find the missing tree from Pakalomattom to cheriya-vadakkedathu. There are also links to the orethu family as one of the sons married a mariamma from orethu Thommi family. I am not sure whether I can post Topics such as these here

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    • I would love to see your family history book, especially as it relates to Orethu Thommi. We say we are the descendants of Orethu Thommi Tharakan of Kurianoor.

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      • My great grandmother is the descendant of Orethu Thommi Tharakan

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      • We are also part of the Orethu Thommi Tharakan’s family. His eldest of four sons lived at Annicattu House. (The youngest of four sons lived at Orethu House, the second brother at Thanathottathil House, and the third brother had a Dethu Marriage to a lady of Idayarunmula, Kunnampurathu House.) And my great-Grandfather is fourth of five sons of the second of four sons of Orethu Thommi Tharakan. I am my great-grandfather’s younger son’s fifth son’s only son Sam. I am eighth generation in Kurianoor, Orethu family. My family history book in seven parts, & in Malayalam:
        http://bit.ly/14JCe2n, enjoy my brothers and sisters!

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      • Hi I am interested in the Cheriyavadakkedathu family. have you got a link or history of this family

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  21. Tarsa/Tarisa pally (Kollam):

    Does any one know where, relative to modern Kollam, the ancient “Tarsa”/”Tarisa” Pally is reported to have stood?

    I’m planning a trip back home and I thought I’d do some snooping around Kollam, however, I have no clue where to drive to even begin searching.

    Does anyone have any stories from their grandparents that may provide a clue?

    I’ll send any pictures to Admin, if I find anything interesting.

    Thanks

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  22. pls let me know from where does the name Nezhuvingal House originate from Trichur, Kerala?
    Also the name Alakattu originate from in kottayam, kerala.

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  23. Koruth— Korush?

    A major component of our ancestry is via Persian Christians. Our earliest relics have Pahlavi, the signatories on the cheppads included Persians, our church was under the Metropolitanate of Fars in antiquity, and there are letters indicating that persian and indian christians intermarried, etc.

    Yet, it is strange that we bear no remnant of this in our names. No Farhads, Pirozs, etc, in our cultural names whereas it is on record that central asian and persian christians in iran did have such names.

    So my question: could Koruth be an indianization of the persian name Korush (Cyrus)?

    I’ve seen no great alternative explanation for Koruth. “Korah” is possible but makes no sense: Korah was hardly an important figure. If Korah then where are the Moshes, or Aarons? So Korah is unlikely.

    Another question: any similar candidates for Kunjumakanda?

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  24. Korush / Koruth? Kunju makanda?

    Does anyone have any idea of what the origin of Makanda in “Kunjumakanda” is?

    Any takers on my hypothesis linking Koruthu with the Persian name Korush?

    It seems very odd to me that nothing of the great Persian immigrations of the 6-9th century remains, apart from:
    1. some memory in various Kollam families (Muthualaly, Thulassery Manapurathu, Tharakan, etc.) of being descended from Maruvan Sabr-Isho (note: Maruvan was identified by the Parsis scholar, Dr. Modi, as being the Persian name Mahervan, in Kerala Society Papers).
    2. the ancient artifacts (Pahlavi-inscribed crosses, Pahlavi signatures) we possess

    I would have thought we’d at least have some Persian names circulating, hence my hypothesis linking Koruthu and Korush.

    I also see that Kunju-Makanda is a common name in some Kollam families (I don’t know enough as to whether it’s a general Nasrani name, I suspect it is), but I was thinking could this be some kind of a holdover? It seems to be a very odd name. Does anyone know anything further about it?

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  25. Dear Admin,

    I am a member (hope so) of this community, though no posts in recent times due to shortage of time. Howsoever I am proud of this community and laudable is your efforts for the cause of Nasrani heritage.

    I am a member of Paremakkal family tree, from Ramapuram, settled in Ernakulam, dedicated spare time for the cause of Nasrani heritage revival related activities.

    As part of it we few people met Arch Bishop Alencherry recently to for general discussion and to know his general opinion on the subject, rather to *know him. Among us Xavier Kalangara, Cyriac who are members of this community.
    It was a very cordial talk, and we found the ABp in real enthusiasm and sat with us for more than 1 hr. giving all possible support. He said laity’s roll is crucial in reinstating good values of erstwhile Nasrani heritage and stressed the need for recruiting more members to our effort.

    We are on the look out to incorporate more people with us, since we found Ernakulam-Angamaly is the most Latinised diocese, ironically the seat of out See.

    We welcome any members interested to join us.

    Also another effort is on to revive the Nasrani heritage from Pakalomattom, Kuravilangad.
    A grand “NASRANI SANGAMAM” was conducted on Sept. 5th at ‘Arkadeakon Nagar’, Pakalomattom (Archdeakon Tomb Church), which was inaugurated by Minister KM Mani.

    This is most distinguished as a MULTI-SECT, effort, among SMC, Malankara Catholic, Jacobite, Orthodox, Marthoma, Assyrian, CSI etc.

    This was happened basically on a protest against the recent statement of MGS Narayanan’s that St. Thomas visit of India/ Kerala and Nasrani’s claimed Christian origin from him is a myth.

    Learned people were participated in the Sangamam, Fr. Xavier koodappuzha, Dr. Menacherry were two prominent among them.

    Towards follow-up on this, a committee is formed(myself is a Committee member) to organise a “ESHARA PALLI NASRANI SANGAMAM” a grand ‘Deepashikha Rally’ covering all 7.5 Churches, starting from Pakalomattaom, ending there in 3 days from JANUARY 18th to 21st.

    We request support from this community to spread word globally to this new effort towards Nasrani heritage and more importantly to a REUNION OF EASTERN CHURCHES.

    You may please publish this news, in appropriate heading, requesting attention and all help and support from global Nasrani.

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  26. Dear Sunny,

    First I would like to thank you and others for your efforts to expose the vested interest of certain groups in Archeology. MGS is an RSS-sponsored historian. Therefore there is no wonder in his comments. His comment that it was Europeans who introduced Christianity in Kerala for the first time shows not his ignorance, but his bias. I wish this and other websites of Kerala Christians could serve in spreading awareness about why RSS-backed organisations oppose KCHR and Muziris Heritage Project.

    NEWS:
    http://deshabhimaniweekly.com/newscontent.php?id=45177

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  27. This is ridiculous.

    Your attack on MGS does nothing to bolster the claim — unsubstantiated by any evidence — that St Thomas came to Kerala. Rather it only shows your own ignorance, bias, and extremism: the very things you accuse your opponent of.

    1. It is a fact that no evidence exists that proves or disproves St Thomas’ arrival in Kerala, and his role in the founding of the Church in Kerala. This is not a Hindu fundamentalist idea at all! Many Roman Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, Protestant, Nasrani scholars (e.g., TK Joseph) have stated that there is absolutely no evidence whatesoever that can prove or disprove St Thomas’ arrival. Read Kerala Society Papers for a Christian (TK Joseph) presenting very cogent arguments based on his study of the evidence.

    2. If you tar MGS as an “RSS historian” then what is Menacherry and the other Nasrani pseudo-historians? “Christian fundamentalist historians”? It’s all the same. If we had incontrovertible evidence that Christianity in India came from St Thomas (versus immigration of Thomasine Christians from Persia and Mesopotamia — for which there is evidence), then there would be no doubt in any ones mind. However, we have no such evidence.

    But on the contrary, without a shred of evidence people like Menacherry spout off that “Christianity is older than Hinduism/Brahmanism in Kerala” and other such idiotic statements that provoke the very response we’re getting.

    Our own people are doing a great disservice to our people by making us look like hyperbolic, exaggerating, non-rigorous, fundamentalist idiots with no grasp of the scientific scholarly method. You can prefix “Dr” or “Prof” as many times as you want, but if you don’t have the attitude of a scholar (and instead make libelous claims about your opponent, rather than considering the veracity of the claims) you have no intellectual authority at all.

    3. We can never disprove a foreign origin for Christianity in India — Christianity *is* a foreign Semitic religion.

    However, we can demonstrate that the origin was not due to European colonialism. There is evidence that Christians existed in Kerala from the time of Cosmas Indico.’s observations of us. That’s actual evidence against a European origin for Christianity. And there is evidence of the Persian Christian immigrations, copper plate grants, Crosses, etc.

    4. At the same time we must also acknowledge that Christianity in its current forms in Kerala is strongly influence by European colonialism. The Latin Catholics, CSI, and Evangelicals are the obvious products of missionary activity.

    But the Syro-Malabar has a strong Latinized faction, and maintains Latin missionary influence amongst its populace. The Syro-Malankara uses a new rite introduced in the 17th century, and during the last century has adopted more “Roman” practices.

    The Mar Thomites use the new 17th c rite, and they have adopted the Western ethos of the Protestant missionaries who created their Church.

    The Jacobites and the Orthodox also use a new rite, and their people have adopted “popular Christian” practices that come from either Catholic or Protestant missionaries.

    In general, all Christians in Kerala (whether Nasrani or not) tend to have a more Westernized ethos than the Hindus. We don’t at all act like “native” Christians; the last five centuries have stripped all of that away. The ancient good will between the Nairs and the Nasranis has been lost; mainly due to foreign missionary meddling and creation of negative sentiments.

    There is no single Church in Malabar that retains both the ancient rites and the old ethos of our ancestors. Not one at all. If you don’t like this, then fix it, and bring back all of the old ways (many of which may have been negative, such as our use of sorcery, etc.). Otherwise, accept it like an adult, and stop attacking the historians who are making note of it: because they are telling the truth.

    5. It is interesting that a big deal is being made of Kuravalingad which is only a Church of note in the centuries before and after the era of the Portuguese.

    However, the *real* centers of Christianity in Kerala are Cranganore, and Kollam. Kuravalingad has no claim to antiquity. It may have been the latter day seat of the Archdeacons, but that’s it.

    Moreover, the Archdeacons were not heros in any sense. They did not serve the distant Christians living the far off regions away from their capital. This is documented in Jornada. The Kollam and southern Churches actually appreciated the arrival of the Portuguese as it resulted in them actually getting priests, the sacraments, etc. — which the dismissive attitude of the archdeacons prevented in earlier times.

    The Archdeacons, or rather, the family of the Archdeacons, Pakallomattom, was pretty much at the root of many of the major schisms in the Nasranis. (1) The Pazhayakoor/Puthenkoor split, (2) the Puthenkoor Thozhiyur split, (3) the Puthenkoor Marthomite split.

    Yet, some want to return to the ancient nepotism that ruined us (and the Mesopotamian Church) in the first place?

    Please reconsider your extremism, or at least temper it with facts.

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  28. “Ezharappalli Nasrani Deepashikha Prayanam”

    This is to inform all concerned the news of the above a grand Rally covering those ancient “Ezharappally”(Seven and half Churches) in Kerala namely Nilakkal, Niranam, Kollam, Palayur, Kottakkavu, Kokkamangalam, Kodungallur and Thiruvankod.
    It starts from Pakalomattom(Kuravilangad) “Arkadiyakkon Nagar” on 18th January, ends at same place on 21st, covering all these centers and a few other like Kanjirappally, Trivandrum, Ernakulam, Edappally, Malayattur etc.

    This effort is in the auspice of those ancient Christian families like Pakalomattom, Sankarapuri, Kaali, Kaliyankal, Chothirikkunnel, Kottakkali, Nedunthali, Vazhappally, Payyappilly, Thayyil, Erali, Madathilaan, Bhatamukku, Tharisathekkethil….etc and descendant family members.
    It is a multi-sect endeavor to rekindle the subdued glory of Nasrani of past, in times of Arkadiyakons(Archdeakons), and thru the combined effort to refute the concocted theory that ‘St. Thomas in Kerala and Nasrani’s Jewish origin is a myth’ by vested interests.

    The 20 member Committee consists of Syro Malabar Catholic, Orthodox, Jacobite, Malankara Syrian Catholic, Marthomite, Assyrian…etc. The writer is a Committee member.
    The grand Rally is planned with statue of Thoma Sleeha, Archdeakon in front and with 8 buses full of members representing 8 Pallies with hundreds of cars and motor bikes following the Rally with reception arranged at all centers.

    We, the Committee formally and lovingly invite all interested, those think a Nasrani and especially members of those above mentioned family-trees to make it a grand success. It is a rare chance to partake in the effort to regain our past glory which is the need of the hour.
    Those overseas may inform their relatives in Kerala to take part, by attending Rally, or arranging grand receptions at the way of rally and at each centers, exhibiting “BEST COMPLIMENTS” Flex-boards, Banners etc ANYWHERE in Kerala to publicize the event.

    Any query may mailed to: [email protected]

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  29. Dear John Mathew,
    I dont have time to refute all your points,(few of them plain accusations of whom you do not approve), but mention couple of them:
    NOBODY ever going prove the origin of Christianity in Kerala and that of Nasrani, an ethno-religious race UNDOUBTEDLY, due to the huge void exists in the ancientest time.
    Hence one have to depend many ‘unscientific’ components like beliefs, traditions, ethos, practices, cultural traits…etc. to prove the facts.
    The opposing side can claim disproving all these, but cannot succeed because these evidences are not purely as scientific as some other proofs but stronger than many seemingly scientific evidences.

    Anybody even you can be stamped as biased: your statement “(versus immigration of Thomasine Christians from Persia and Mesopotamia — for which there is evidence),” is more than enough to stamp you, but I dont. Because I know if I do, I have no escape being stamped !

    Howsoever, accusing some scholars of liking as real and those disliked as fake is slightly unscientific by all standards, again ‘stamping’ is the term available at your the opponent’s disposal, please note…

    It is prudent to take anything with pinch of salt, and accepting any such unprovable, near pre-historical events and histories without bias: Nature of real scholarly.

    I may not come back to argue more, but please do not take it as my admitting ….

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  30. Hello Everyone,

    1. MGS is an eminent historian, well accepted and known for being unbiased and uncompromising, not any RSS stooge. Just as recently he had written an article on the Vaishnavite conquest of Budhist temples in kerala in the wake of the Padmanabha Swami Temple Treasure and related ‘social cause’ debates. He is well known for his uncompromising stand on many issues, regardless of any political affiliations. He is not right nor left and has often been at odds with the Marxist party and also RSS forefronts.
    He is well accepted by Church. See http://www.smcim.smonline.org/report5.htm

    2. St Thomas story is like Einstein’s Theory of relativity. When he fished the book of relativity, he wrote “You many not be able to prove this. But you wont be able to disprove this either”.

    As of now it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to prove or disprove this theory. Therefore for the ordinary Nasranis the oral traditions makes more *sense* as we not required to treat our ancestors to be DISHonest unless other wise evidence to disprove the St Thomas theory emerges (for Philip Baldeus writes in ‘A Description of East India Coasts of Malabar and Coromandel’, 1703 about the Nasrani tradition of teaching their children of the oral history at a very young age. .). So as St.Thomas Christians if any Nasrani adheres to the oral traditions and comes in defence of this theory, he is not to be blamed.

    Like the French law of justice, the law of logic here is “Guilty until proven innocent’ and St. Thomas the Apostle stands accused in Early Christian Conversions in the Malabar Coast. Any follower has every right to standby what he has been taught, believe unless proved otherwise.

    >> Also as I have mentioned earlier in one of my posts to George Mathew, I know about an inverted idol of Kali, reportedly belonging to one of the Kali/Kalliyankal family descendant’s ancestral home near Kodungalloor. NOTE that inverted idol means ‘head and body out of phase by 180’. You may ask our ammachy’s and appachans of St. Thomas stories and they will tell you about 2 special acts, the first being the usual story of ‘Homam’.

    3. About exaggeration or making exorbitant claims, who isnt that great in this ? Ever watched a Shaji Kailas film ? you would endup thinking that it was the Hindus who won the First and Second world wars (All of us enjoy these films with out complaining about any RSS agenda.). It is just a natural instinct to project ourselves/ancestors to be superior to others.

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  31. Varghese:

    Could you please provide some more info about the Kaliankal inverted “idol”.

    Kaliankal is a strange family to me; I’ve been looking into its history because it’s my ancestral family, supposedly, but I’ve found some strange discrepancies.

    It seems that most major Kaliankal families claim descent from Nilakkal. But they also maintain that they originally came from Kuravalingad, prior to Nilakkal.

    Now, I think the latter is total fantasy: first of all, Nilakkal is a black hole in our history. We know the exodus out of Nilakkal which supposedly happened in the 13th-16th c (depending on the writer), and brought the families to either Kanjirapalli or Kadampanad. But I don’t see how we can at all know what happened at Nilakkal, or prior to Nilakkal.

    So it’s strange to hear that some Kaliankal are claiming an origin in Kuravalingad or, now as you report, a claim that there is an ancestral house in Cranganore. I can see that people may have migrated from Nilakkal to Kanjiapalli and then to Kuravalingad. But I can’t see how anyone can claim an origin prior to Nilakkal.

    Do you have any further details? I’m really curious to learn more, as I think there is an interesting history to this family, but I just don’t know what it exactly is due to the high variety in the stories. Do you know first hand of this house?

    Thanks!

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    • About kalikavu family. I am joy thomas plathottam ,pravithanam,pala,kottayam,kerala,india. iam the historian,founder,coordinator&General secretary of kalikavu(kaliyankal)global kudumbayogam.Kalivu family comes from northindia named “Ariyavarthum” in B.C. this is the first ariya bharamin family of kerala. there are 64 ariyabharamin families came from north india. they are called “arupathinalilkar”.they ruled the 64 villages of kerala. in this, kalivu ruled Palayoor & paravoor villages.in B.C. itself, kalikavu family had two branches.palayoor kalikavu& paravoor kalikavu are our ancestral branches in B.C. who comes from north India.after the village ruling the 64 villages are are divided into four “Thallies”.16 inclueded in each Thalli.In this kalikavu paravoor got Nediathally.this is paravoor. then paravoor kalikavu is called as “Neduthallyswarupam”. this is in B.C. fromB.C. to 1764 A.D. kalikavuneduthallyswarupam ruled paravoor. this is a hindupreist family.this family have “vadathikaram” among hindu nambuthiries.this gave them grate previlage among hindu community. the two kalikavu branches got baptizam from st.Thomas from paravoor& palayoor.the king ofparavoor give the Royal family temple to st. Thomas.this is the “kottakavu church” among the 7 churches st.Thomas builts.Kalikavu family generations are proud of”kottakavu church”.Inpalayoor kalikavu family gets priesthood from st. Thomas.there is a written board in palayoor, near “thaliakulam” about this.the palayoor kalikavu spreds to kottakkad& kuravilangad.from kottakkad thefamily spreds into pavarty, thrissur, paramangalam,valloor etc. from kuravilangad kalikavu family spreds into near placesnillakkal,manarcad,chagnassery, niranam, thiruvalla,kuttanad,kalluppara,mylapra, thottakad,kaippattoor,athirampuzha,kothamangalam etc.from nillakkal the family escape to kangirappally,bharananganam&kadampanad.that is about 14th centuary.Kangirappally the branch is known as “valiyavettil”,bharananganam the branch is known as Plathottam, at Kadampanad the branch is known as”pallivathukkal”.the kalikavu branches of palayoor from B.C. and subbranches and subbranches of kottakavu, kuravilangad, kangirappally, bharananganam&kadampanad are known to me.they are all consider me as their family member.i coordinate hundreds of these branches into the kaliyankal kudumbayogam.the bharananganam plathottam branches are coordinated by me and known as “Plathottam maha kudumbayogam”. I am the founder& general secretary of plathottam maha kudumbayogam.all branches &members consider me as a family member. the paravoor neduthally (kalikavu) sawrupam branches also spred into north malabar,thrissur,angamally,manjapra,aluva,kothamangalam etc. the kalikavu neduthally branches of B.C.and all subbranches consider me as a family member. now the familly members are in hindu, christian&musilm relegion.now the family members are lived over the whorled. I am traced the historyof3000 years. I traced the ariabramin history of northindia,ruling of palayoor & paravoor of 64 villages in b.c.,vadathikaram in hindu nambuthirry community,rulers of nediathally paravoor from b.c to 18th centuary, ownership of kottakvu church,christianity from st.thomas for both palayoor&paravoor kalikavu branches,and christian preisthood from st.thomas from palayoor etc. ………I know all history,most of the members,arch bishops,priests and most of the distingued personalities.I coordinateall branches and subbranches from B.C.this coordination of all kalikavu family branches are known as “Kalikavu / Kaliyankal Global Kudumbayogam”. I give the lists & names of various branches tovarious persons& branch officials. Iam trying to give our great history to our family andour society.I spend about more than 40 years for studing our kalikavu family history.our historygive many evidences about the presence of st.thomas in india, ariabhramin presence in B.C. etc….I am the founder& generai scretary,kaliyankal global kudumbayogam, plathottam maha kudumbayogam, plathottam kudumbayogam bharananganam.my address is joy thomas plathottam, pravithanam p.o. pala, kottayam dt. kerala, india pin.686651.mymob. 9446820885,phone04822247243 e-mail; [email protected]

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    • kalikavu illam iscome from north india.this is ariabhramin family .in kerala they settled in paravoor & palayoor,inB.C. so kalikavu family of kerala had two mother places. these two kalikavu branches come from one tharavadu. the two branches agree that they are from the same kalikavu tharavadu.these two kalikavu branches rule palayoor village & paravoor village in B.C. so there is two kalikavu branches in kerala in B.C. itself. now itself these two branches consider as brothers.i will coordinate most of the branches of this two kalikavu branches. this main two branches and its subbranches consider me as their brother or family member. so i am the connecting member(brother)of the branches.kalikavu is a hindu bharamin family.the family godds of the family is durgga or kalli.the worshipers of kalli devi is called kalikavu. this history is known with the history of kalikavu neduthallyswarupam.and this history is well connected with st. Thomas and kalikavu neduthally swarupam.there are many many family temples of kalikavu in kerala. In thalliyathri rule kalikavu paravoor get nediathally.ie is paravoor also called parappoor. as the rulers of nediyathally pravoor known as nediyathally swarupam.from B.C. , kalikavu paravoor is known as neduthally swarupam. st.Thomas first entered in kerala is maliyankara is the ruling place neduthally swarupam. most members of thekalikavu royal family members become christians by the hand of st. Thomas. the kalikavu king give their family temple to st. thomas and become a church. this is one of the 7 churches st. thomas built in kerala. we, all kalikavu members can proud of kottakavu church of paravoor.the kalikavu christian family of paravoor is called as thakkapattil kovilakam and the kalikavu hindu family known as vadakapattil kovilakam. the kalikavu christians also known as nedumthally malliakel. kalikavu hindu family have “vadaadhikaram” among Nambuthries in hindu religion. Kalikavu neduthally swarupam ruled upto a.d .1764 from B.C. kalikavu neduthally swarupam branchs spreds on north malabar, paravoor, angamally, manjapra, kothamangalam, thrissur, aluva, ernakulam,kumballangy..etc…. Palayoor kalikavu family members also become christians by the hand of st. thomas. kalikavu palayoor christian branch get christian priesthood from st. Thomas. the christianity,and christian priesthood to kalikavu palayoor branch is seen in the slab kept near the “thalliyakulam” at palayoor.now also there are so many kalikavu familes lived in palayoor. I am the best family relative for them.I still continue the early B.C. relation for all kalikavu branches. from early 2nd centuary some kalikavu family members shifted to kottakkad near thrissur and some shifted to kuravilangad. kalli, shankarapury and pakalomattam family members accombined kalikavu family to kuravilangad. these families give ledership to the christian community. from kuravilangad kalikavu branches goes to near placeses and goes to nilakkel, niranam, manarcad, athrenpuxha, chenganacherry, kuttanad, thiruvella,kallupara, thottakad, kaippattoor,pthuppally, manganam, kothamagalam, mylapra, velluthuruthy, aranmula, kumbanad, meenadam,mepral,nedukunnam,kayiyoor,etc……………. from nilakkel ,kalikavu family who comes from kuravilangad shiftted to kangirappally, bharananganam and kadampanad. valiaveettil kangirapally ,plathottam bharananganam, and pallivathukal kadambanad are kalikavu families who escape from nillakkel agitation. I know most of the branches and they consider me as a family member. Hundreds of branches of kalikavu from palayoor, kottakkad, kuravilangad, kangirapally, bhrananganam,and kadambanad is now lived all over the worled. I can trace the history of kalikavu family.the north indian orgin, ariyabhramin family background, hindu priesthood, village rule of palayoor and paravoor, vedathikaram in hindu nambuthiri community,christianity of palayoor kalikavu and paravoor kalikavu nedumthally branches,familytemple gives to st. thomas, ownership of kottakavu church, king of vadaken paravoor from b. c to 18th centuary, priesthood from st.thomas to the kalikavu palayoor branch,hindu , christian, musilm membership of the family.This is the history kalikavu royal family of kerala joy thomas plathottam pravithanam, kottayam,kerala, india , pin 686651.
      mob.9446820885. [email protected]

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  32. Dear Varghese mani,
    Your’s is a balanced approach, acceptable to me and all that are unbiased and not too evidence-centered.

    Even in criminal investigation, circumstances considered just after evidences. In bygone historical aspects, where very few or no provable evidence is possible, circumstances value much more, though not qualified as provable evidence. But rejecting them totally too is as bad as biased !

    Any sensible Nasrani wont believe every stories making round as truth on his history. Like I do not fully believe in the “Namboodiri- conversion alone” theory. I believe Namboodiri as well as Jews and locals, which is more logical and reasonably true.

    I would like to know how others evaluate MGS’s statements in this link below: http://organiser.org/Encyc/2011/11/12/St-Thomas–Visit–and–Chera–King%E2%80%99s-conversion-to–Islam.aspx?NB=&lang=4&m1=&m2=&p1=&p2=&p3=&p4=

    Post a Reply
  33. Haa! I tried cutting my posts and trying edit to get through. I have been marked spam.

    Post a Reply
  34. Dear Sunny/John,

    I have a post about Pre-Christian Hinduism in Kerala, but didnt pass through and now been marked spamm. I will try post again sometime tomorrow. I would advocate a centre-right approach (i.e being neutral when analysing history, but where ever solid evidence/proof isnt available, meaningful folklores could be taken in to account). John may brand it ‘wishful thinking’ but I think that makes more sense if you dont have any evidence. The best aproach would be ‘Is there any evidence that St. Thomas been to Kerala and also Is there any evidence that Hinduism existed in Kerala prior to the Kulakshetra dynasty’. DNA data is very crucial. Ezhava community has a great admixture. I will try post it again.

    John, I dont know much about Kaliyankal family. Google brings a few websites. The story that you have mentioned is the same there as well (They have mentioned some AD307 events – dont know how/where they get this from. not surprising). I havent seen that idol. I will bring ‘solid’ evidence later.

    Search Kaliyankal Plathottam in google. There are two websites. http://www.mundupalathinkal.org/kaliyankal.php is what I had been referring to.

    Sunny, I dont think ““Only after Portughese rule, did Christianity come to Kerala” is taken from MGS’s speech. Please note that Observer is RSS mouthpiece and there Dharma is media manipulation where in they may have twisted what MGS might have opined at the meeting. Nampoothiri theory is flawed due to various reasons. If it was Vedi Aryans then it would have been far more credible. If St. Thomas was in Kerala then Vedic Aryans (or Brahmins if the Hindu religion did exist back then) would have been certain. But the term ‘Namboothiri’ is folly.

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  35. MGS is saying that Namboothiris came to Kerala much later, so the story of “St. Thomas converting Namboothiris is not reliable”. Why shouldn’t he consider other options. St. Thomas could have converted some other people, like Jews, Romans, Greeks (Yes, they were here, evidently!) or at least indigenous Dravidian people? How can he totally dismiss the substantiated existence of pre-Portuguese Christianity in Kerala?

    I have seen a news article that MGS is justifying ‘Saffronisation’ of education. This itself is enough for understanding to which camp he belongs.

    Whether some church people accept him or not doesn’t count. After all, these church people don’t even accept each other.

    Post a Reply
  36. @Varghese Mani

    Regarding your comment on Shaji Kailas movies:

    “Shaji is a director who made a name with action films reeking with Hindutva messages.”
    (The Hindu, Feb 10, 2003)

    “Shaji Kailas is known for his Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh leanings and often portrays strong Hindu images in his films.”
    (Wikipedia)

    He married a Christian actress and made her convert to Hinduism. I am not sure this comes under the definition of “Love Jihad”.

    Post a Reply
  37. I agree with you Paul Xavier.

    @After all, these church people don’t even accept each other.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Truth.

    Dear Varghese,
    Your giving ‘benefit of doubt’ to MGS is unfounded. Not only in RSS news, in all those News papers covered it (And all of them covered with EXTRA BOLD headings) in the same lines, equivocally that Portuguese introduced Christianity in India.
    Not only Hindutwa brigade but few Christians too will be very pleased with the attestation, ‘Last and Final’ verdict on Indian Christianity. No Supreme Court can over rule it !

    And as instinctual, most of us more than agree any rubbish if proclaimed by anybody who got long tails of Phd, Prof, historian, Priest…etc. Our wisdom just forget they too are religious/ political animals, could be biased too.

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  38. NO CHRISTIANS IN INDIA before Portuguese !!

    Instead I will say this MGS’s utter foolishness is proven by his extra ordinary haste to slam it on world: No Christians before Portuguese ! Means the whole history books have to be rewritten…

    Instead if he just argue there is no evidence for St. Thomas in Kerala, some benefit of doubt would have been credited by others.
    Seems Portuguese descendants, Latin Church too is a silent party, to please whom he ‘erased’ not only St. Thomas, but the history BEFORE Portuguese !
    He really outwitted Menezes who torched all pre-Portuguese Nasrani history. (That is biggest evidence there was a CHRISTIAN HISTORY existed and thus Christians existed before Portuguese !) But that was in 16th century Nasrani were a helpless minority and he an ‘acclaimed’ high Priest !

    But his post haste eagerness made him utter foolishness, forgetting now Nasrani is one of most educated, learned and reputable intellectuals with whom such lies cannot hold much water.

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  39. >> I am not sure this comes under the definition of “Love Jihad”.
    Paul, I dont think so. If you wish you may call it ‘Love Karseva’ but if the groom is Christian then call it ‘Love Crusade’. Every community is happy to snatch some one else’s daughter. This is an increasing trend of ‘liberalisation’ or globalisation. Every weekend I am hearing stories of monochrome Marriages. Feel good that we are getting more progressive and forward thinking.

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  40. Dear Paul/Sunny,

    I tried searching for ‘MGS Narayanan Dismisses/Questions pre-Portuguese existance of Christianity in Kerala’ etc. Couldn’t find any. If you have any *valid* references could you please post them ?
    NOTE: We should be referring to newspapers/magazines with some credibility – Hindu/Hindustan Times/TOI/Manorama and Mathrubhumi – any of these ? Also clearly there are no evidence for the existence of any form of Hinduism in Kerala prior to the Kulakshetra dynasty. I hope my last post would comeup. Else I would post again.

    >>Why shouldn’t he consider other options. St. Thomas could have converted some other people, like Jews, Romans, Greeks
    Well, have we give him any other options ? we havent to be honest. There only Namboothiri stories that are in the air. Nothing else.

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  41. 4. Christianity being older than Hinduism/Brahminism in kerala, it is *probably* right.
    Now read and explain this.
    i). Even MGS has recently said about the vaishnavite conquest of the Budhist temples etc. And All out casts (Ezhava and lower) were those people who were unwilling to submit themselves to the Chathurvarna Theory of Manusmriti.
    ii). MGS has the opinion that Namboothiris arrived in Kerala only in the 7th/8th century.
    iii). First ever Hindu temple in India was setup in the second century (google it)
    iv). Modern Hinduism is a fermented mixture of Vedic religion and Dravidian Religion ( all gods are blue black) which shows a later day assimilation of the two cultures.
    v). Just as in the case of St. Thomas theory, show us the proof that there existed Hinduism in kerala before the 6th century. Frankly there are none.
    vi). There is no historical proof that ‘Sanskrit’ existed as a language before 5th century BC. (Devanagari was in use only from 2nd Century CE only). If Devanagari and Sanskrit were already existing then why did the budhist scholars compiled all there sacred texts in Pali ? Why did the Mauryan Empire (largest ever in history) used Aramaic rock inscriptions (Ashoka’s rock inscriptions). Any explanations ?
    vii). Any proof that ‘Rig/Yajur/Sama’ vedas werent written in the pre Christian Era ?
    viii). The only proof for the boasted antiquity of Sanskrit (touted the most ancient and the most perfect – I agree this anyway – language on planet earth), is the Lithuanian (Baltic to be more acurate) connection. But the Lithuanian connection isnt that old, especially when you read the Nasrani DNA data.
    x). Pre-varna population of the Malabar Coast, ie. the Ezhavas are such a great admix that they have almost all haplogroups (so far I have examined 6samples and found j2b2, E1b1b, H, L, J2a1 and Q) which talks about how this cast was formed (outcasts were of no particular ethno race, but the general Budhist population.)
    xi). Kerala shared a common history with the Tamils. Agreed ? Then why dont we share a common temple architecture (Dravidian Architecture has influenced almost all of the Historic Dravidian(Tamil) empire, from Tanjavur to Bali in Indonesia (Cambodia/Laos all have Dravidian structures, still some of the largest in the world)
    xii). If Hinduism was the Pre-Chera religion of Malabar, then why dont we have the Tamil gods like Murugan ?. All these points to a later day evolution of what is called Hinduism.

    All historic narrations about the Malabar Coast mentions about Pagans, but that could well be Budhism. There are no proofs existing to suggest that Hinduism was the dominant religion of the Malabar Coast.

    5. It is quite usual to have a bias on history/theology etc , based on upbringing. For example every Indian is being taught of and is very proud of our involvement in ‘Khilafat Movement’. But if you are in France and you dare to endorse it publicly, you spend a 3 month in prison for ‘Denial of Armenian genocide’. But when you are in India, it is your for your best to Endorse it, not renounce it. So being Nasranis we naturally tend to be biased towards the St. Thomas, Pakalomattom & Sankarapuri stories or what so ever it be. As I understand Prof Menacherry is a ‘Nasrani Chruch Historian’ so there is no problem in being a little tilted towards where he belongs to.

    6. A Description of East India Coasts of Malabar and Coromandel, Malabar Manual, Kerala Society Papers, none of these are the last words in history.

    7. Deshabhimani style of creative Yellow Journalism, where they report twisted stories and assign the cuprits themselves. MGS is a widely hated figure among the Marxists. It is better to avoid any kind of references to their publications where truth is of concern.

    John, please refrain from personal attacks for perceived incompetencies (prof, dr etc). I have read many of your posts and honestly I am surprised by the rational thinking and grasp of historical facts that you have. But until and unless you come out with some books or Papers or even articles, you are just a kitchen blogger. So a little bit of reverence, especially to the elders would help

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  42. Thanks Admin, My post has been unspammed.

    Dear all,
    I have already posted DNA evidence for Vaishanvite conquest of Budhhists and the Creation of Out caste communities in the DNA page. This is an analysis of the YSTR Haplogroups of Ezhava Community. Ezhavas (or Uzbeks as per the nair/nasrani jokes since some Ezhava historian claimed origins from Uzbekistan. Its really funny as we even equate their names with the Soviet leaders – Gorbechov Krushchov etch were Choven etc.. But in truth they *Could* be from Uzbekistan or Crete as claim.) are often ridiculed as being low origins. Now please read the DNA data. They have a having high Mediteranian/Persian/Semite component (60+) which shows that they were a collection of various ethnic groups who were outclassed by the Brahminic Hinduism.

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  43. What is it that you hope to achieve with this rally? In other words, what is the objective of this rally?
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Objective? EXACTLY AS PER YOUR CHERISHED HOPES you expressed with me !! Yes, I confirm it.

    Well, it all has to be boiled down to the reintroduction of erstwhile goodness of Nasrani way of life, ultimately.
    But now, in the beginning of this long process of the retrieval endeavor, we wisely do not jump to declare this ultimate aim: No patient is ready to take painful needles or even bitter pills, until he realise the ‘AIDS’ he has contacted with! And unless the Nasrani with the ailment of ‘modern culture’ take the medicine, no hope of recovery! And he is a stubborn child, not ready to!
    Also there are strong groups working inside and outside, against Nasrani revival.

    So we just declared a heritage Rally in the cause of unity by the descendants of ancient families irrespective of sect. The Gen. Secretary Mr. Abraham Benhur is an Orthodox, with all sects in the Organisers. Once it is a success, there will be steps one by one till reaching our ultimate aim: as I explained above, which is exactly the same with the cherished hopes of Concerned Nasrani worldwide.
    First stage we do not take even names of sects/Churches at all, but we concentrate in the word ‘Nasrani Sangamam’ alone, which speaks volumes of our aim !

    So be hopeful and supportive, BY SPREADING THIS GOOD NEWS with all your/our might, wherever we go, people, media, events….Just help spreading the news of A LAITY ENDEAVOR, A LAITY INITIATIVE. This shouldnot die-down as usual.

    And if a revival possible, that is possible with THIS GENERATION alone, which stands at the cross roads of our history: between a true Nasrani bygone generation and the future one, an ignorant one. Unless WE pass on the torch (Deepasikha), none can, never !

    So it is crucial this initiative to succeed and thrive. WE CALL WORLD NASRANI TO COME OUT HELPING US IN EVERY POSSIBLE MANNER, it is a common effort. There are no SMC, Jacobite, Marthomite, Orthodox…WE ARE NASRANI !
    And be assured we are very aware of our tough effort, hence do not jump, but put every step cautiously, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO SUCCEED !

    Be a VOLUNTEER, wherever remote we are, every drop contributes. And NRI Nasrani’s offspring are most ‘contacted’, hence his effort is crucial. They can be REGIONAL ORGANISERS, to start a branch in their area.
    Shortly we will be bringing out a BULLETIN, a publication; a soft and hard copy.
    Thanks once more and be with us !

    (I am posting this in NJC for awareness of all like-minded many, may be photos too.
    I request NJC to dedicate a heading on “NASRANI SANGAMAM-2011” to highlight the initiative as contribution, to enable news, progress, events, photos can be uploaded for world Nasrani.)

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  44. RE: MGS

    I think the sentiments expressed in: “http://organiser.org/Encyc/2011/11/12/St-Thomas–Visit–and–Chera–King%E2%80%99s-conversion-to–Islam.aspx?NB=&lang=4&m1=&m2=&p1=&p2=&p3=&p4”

    by MGS Narayanan can easily sum up the rational, objective, conservative perspective on this topic.

    And if one reads Kerala Society Papers, for example, one will see exactly the same sentiment expressed by the Editor there, who just happens to be a Nasrani.

    The fact of the matter is, that zero evidence exists for St Thomas having come to Kerala. And the association of St Thomas with Mylapore is curious as well. TK Joseph very clearly explains a skeptical view that St Thomas was buried there: how could he be, when the Syriac and Greco-Roman “history” seems to indicate that the bones were moved from “Calamina” to Edessa. Who is right here? The tradition of the Syriacs and the Greco-Romans? Or the tradition of the Kerala Christians — who, in fact, use the tradition of the Syriac/Romans in partial form to justify the claim that St Thomas came to Kerala?

    There are any number of possibilities to explain the strength of the St Thomas myth in Kerala. My personal view (yes, I am a “kitchen blogger” as we all are over here — but the various modern published authors are so sloppy in their logic, their reasoning, the application of the scientific method, that I don’t lose an iota of sleep due to the fact that I’ve published nothing: in fact, no single modern author on Nasrani history has done an ounce of bonafide legwork to uncover real history; every one quotes the same sources, even when those sources have been thoroughly discredited):

    1. yes, we are Christians of St Thomas
    2. no, not because St Thomas came to Malabar
    3. St Thomas probably came to Persia and NW India
    4. Fars in particular took great pride in their origin from St Thomas— so much so, that they resented being a metropolitanate of a Church headed by a successor of a mere disciple of St Thomas
    5. the Persian connection to SW India is actually quite immense:
    a) the first Christian colonies observed in Kerala & Ceylon by a third party were Persians (ref: Cosmas)
    b) the oldest Christian artifacts — our 6th-8th c crosses — are inscribed with Pahlavi
    c) there is a letter by an East Syriac patriarch authorizing the intermarriage of Persian Christians and Indian Christians
    d) Syriac/Greek liturgical material was translated to Pahlavi and sent to India
    e) Maruvan Sabor Isho (Maruvan = Mehervan, a Persian name, according to Prof Modi, in KSP) was a Persian immigrant to Kerala who is the progenitor of several large Nasrani clans
    f) Persian signatories (in addition to Jewish and Arabic) on our copper plate Cheppads — our second oldest artifacts
    g) Tarisapally is an obvious corruption of Tarsapally: and reading KSP I can see that my sentiment is not even a new one: people realized this a century ago. And here I thought I was brilliant for coming up with this! It turns out the real experts of old figured it out.
    6. There are certain parallels (often direct copies) between Nasrani legends of what St Thomas did in Malabar and what St Thomas did in Persia (ref: read some old posts from > 3 years ago on NSC on this topic, by others not me).

    * It’s clear: were are Christians of St Thomas because our Persian and possibly Aramean ancestors were Christians of St Thomas. It is not necessary for Thomas to have come to Malabar for our people to be Christians of St Thomas: our fathers, from a distant land, could have been Christians touched by Thomas, and could have brought that memory to Kerala with them. This is an immensely likely story, and one that does not invoke Brahmanic conversions, or other such nonsense.

    Mylapore must have been an important Dayra — monastery — with some saintly fathers buried. It may not necessary be St Thomas the Apostle, especially since St Thomas relics were reported to have been taken to Edessa: this is the Syriac, Greek and Roman tradition.

    Some here are quite liberal: if you don’t have evidence you’ll accept “folklore”, and stories and mythology. That’s fine, but it will easily open you to the very real criticism of proper scholars like MGS, TK Joseph, etc.: not that either of them are anti-Christian, they are purely anti-fantasy.

    Some here are more conservative: evidence based theories are all that will be accepted. I’m in the latter boat. It’s far safer for me to be able to say that the Persian Christians were the most ancient *attested* root of the Nasranis, attested back to the 4/5th c’s, than to claim something totally outrageous — and unproveable — and having to endure the scorn of more scientific oriented people. I’m on far better foundations. Sure, I can’t go back to AD 52, but who cares. A fourth century origin is still very solid, and the Persians were most certainly touched by Thomas, since Thomasine stories — with reasonable evidence — brings him to NW India (Gondaporus, etc.).

    Finally to Mani:
    you write: “6. A Description of East India Coasts of Malabar and Coromandel, Malabar Manual, Kerala Society Papers, none of these are the last words in history.”

    Of course not. But they are valid observations that were written back before a lot of the 20th century mass distortions took place. So they are extremely valuable. And it is a shame on our people that *NO* real research or work has been done since that era to uncover our history. Rather, our people have been destroying old Churches, models of Persian architecture, graves, etc., in favor of modernity. And the scholarly standards of our “esteemed” Church scholars are a far cry from the era of KSP, for example. Who would put a *compiler* like Dr. Menacherry in the same boat — the same ocean — as a TK Joseph, who actually did real work. You perhaps dislike my sources because they deemphasize your wishful thinking, your fantasies. Fine. But show me a single source of yours that would serve as an intellectual equal to what I’m referring to.

    Yes, I’m a kitchen blogger, as you say. But so are we all. So instead of relying on our own merits or demerits, which are of dubious value, why not look at the essence: our sources. I have clearly indicated the sources of my thinking above, they are actual sources that state positive information. As far as I can see, my “opponents” are using nothing more than emotionally-induced nationalism-induced fanaticism-induced wishful fantasizing. Sorry, elder or not, that does not warrant any deference from me.

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  45. Varghese Mani,

    1) If it was a cook up by Organiser, then MGS could have definitely denied it later. But no sign of such a news.

    2) Not only Khilafat, but also many other things that are branded as “Freedom Struggle” cannot be considered so by a mature minded Indian. For example, Pazhassi Raja, Tipu Sultan, Jhansi Rani, Marthanda Varma, etc all were considered freedom fighters despite the truth that they all fought against the Europeans only for their personal benefits, i.e, to expand their own empires

    3) >>have we give him any other options ?<< Why should we give him options? He is a historian and it is up to him to rediscover the past. He is not a student to choose an answer from given options.

    4) I strongly believe that "Christianity Older than Hinduism in Kerala". If anyone has not read it already, the entire text of Menachery's thesis can be found here:

    http://kristhyaani.blogspot.com/search/label/menachery

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  46. >>If it was a cook up by Organiser, then MGS could have definitely denied it later. But no sign of such a news.
    Paul, I am sure this is not his opinion. He would have questioned the authenticity of the St. Thomas stories. But he wouldnt have said that Christianity was introduced by the Portuguese for he himself has gives the date of arrival of Thomas of Cana to be AD535. Given this, there is no question about it being his own opinion. He wouldnt dare to tarnish his own image, credibility and reputation for any sort of foolish communal thoughts. This is a case of media manipulation and I would advice to ignore it.

    I dont think you can compare Khilafat with any other movements in our ‘independence struggle’ for it was the forefront of Armenian Genocide. We supported it, just because Britain was fighting the Turks. It was an Islamic conspiracy to mask the Armenian Genocide through which Turkey became liberated of its 45% Armenian Kuffars (who were the sons of the soil), becoming the monolithic state of ‘Young Turks’ , a modern Socialist Nation. Holocaust was inspired by this. We still celebrate our historic commitment and support in ensuring the extermination of the Armenian race through movies like ‘Young Turk’. This is history as we know it. Marthanda Varma and Jhanci Rani were legitimate rulers and were defending their Kingdom from a foreign enemy who was here to subjugate them and take advantage of their people where as Tipu was a religious fanatic, and illegitimate ruler and a mass murderer whose sole purpose was religious conversion. So Tipu and Khilafat are the same coin, but two sides where as the others arent.

    3. As already stated this isnt his opinion. He has been misquoted or is selective editing.

    4. I have already read it from Christian-aggression blog which is very very informative and artistic.

    While I wont attest the St. Thomas theory (while we dont have any evidence to this theory, DNA *evidence* is against it, but I even doubt the scientific accuracy of what is called DNA articulation of genetics, especially when it is over a few centuries), I am very doubtful about the existence of Hinduism in Malabar prior to the 8th century. So to me Christianity is older than Hinduism, not just in Malabar, but as a whole.

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  47. Even though this is for the first time I am commenting here, I have been watching the discussions here for some time. From the older comments from John Matthew, I can understand that this guy is really aggressive to establish that the Nasrani church is just a local branch of Persian church and Nasrani people have some Semitic origin. It seems like he is rowing towards his destination. Regarding his latest comment, I would like to ask him something. John Matthew, you are saying that you will not buy traditions and ‘stories’, right? Then can you explain from where did you get the idea of “Mar Sabir Easo”? From Tharisapalli copperplates? Did you even know that nowhere in the copperplates it is said that this guy (Maruvan Sapiriso) is a Bishop or even a Christian? Also it is not said that Tharisappalli is a christian church. In fact the term ‘palli’ need not to mean a christian church always. For example, nobody says Vazhappalli mentioned in Vazhappalli copperplates was a church. The copperplates again neither say Maruvan Sabir was a foreigner nor it mentions any arrival from outside. All these are just our traditions. If you don’t believe the story of St. Thomas in India, then you should also dismiss the story of arrival of Persian bishops. Cherry picking only those stories you like is not a good habit. Finally, there were many different ethnic groups like Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Persians, Chinese, Jews, Scythians, etc who have come to ancient Malabar. There were Christians, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Manicheans, Buddhists, Pagans, etc among them. But it does not mean that the Christians among them were the ancestors of todays Nasranis.

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  48. Hello John,

    Looks to me that you are too distressed by the ‘Kitchen Blogger’ classification that I assigned. All I meant was ‘dont be tooo harsh’ for none among us are that perfect. You are often branding many thoughts put forward by others as result of ‘wishful thinking’ which may or may not be true. But I can say that you are also prone to this wishful thinking which you have already demonstrated. While you have criticized Dr. Boaz for not being observant enough while putting up theories, you also failed on the same. You are still too leant on a Yemeni origin of the Knas, just because you were informed of the similarities in the wedding songs used by both the communities. But you simply chose to ignore the fact that the Kongu Vellalla (and all those who attain the Gounder status, notably the Kallars) *probably* share the same wedding songs and even with the same name ‘mangala vazhthu’ and ‘vazhvenna’. Also the striking similarities in the social behaviour and common wedding customs and rituals shared by the two communities, were too irrelevant, unscientific and incidental for you to ignore. Is it not what you call ‘wishful thinking’ ? I cant understand the logic behind this Yemeni Connection when you have even more stronger connections just nearby with far more credibility.

    Now about this celebrated historian T.K Joseph, he isnt that great as you project. For his attestation (I believe it is he who proposed it for the fist time) of AD345 arrival of Knai Thoma, he should be called a senseless idiot who has pioneered this culture of ETHER stories. Where did he get this date from ? Is there any valid proof ? Then why dont he keep us in the dark ?. So he has certainly doctored the art of manufacturing stories which has been perfected by the Kna historians. So Chazhikadan was just a *compiler* where as all the framework was done by this great historian. Is it ?

    I share all those thoughts that you have on the St Thomas story, especially since the DNA evidence is against it (For the DNA points that a branches of the Pakalomattom shared a common ancestor with 18 other Cohens, in the past 42 generations which couldnt be before AD500. Same with Sankarapuri where I belongs to and I should have shared a common ancestor with 55 others in the past 42 generations. And interestingly a pakalomattom branch shares a common ancestor with a Persian Muslim in the past 15 generations. So That eliminates the palayur story. But that hasnt eliminated rest of the possibilities)

    I agrees with all those *facts* listed out by you. But I am just neutral in analysing history, not liberal. Yes! I wouldnt dismiss folklores to be folklores, where there are not enough proofs available to dismiss them. As already said I am keep center-right because I dont need to dismiss all this oral traditions at once just because you dont have any proof with you. But I would keep rejecting them as and when proof is avialable. That is selective elimination. As of now I have eliminated possibilities of the Pakalomattom and Sankarapuri being monolithic (I can only interpret data available from the project which has minimal samples), i.e being stemmed out of single undivided family that may have accepted Christian faith at Palayur or Kodungalloor where ever it be. If I cant verify the Kaliyankal Idol story, then I could reject this story as a whole and assume these families to be monolithic, but of persian origin, given ample DNA evidence is available by then. Untill then I goes by my ‘Multiple Waves of Migration’ theory.

    I am not in either of these boats. I am on my own. I am keeping a centre right approach and I believe it is the best. My logical reasoning for this approach is ‘If a woman died at childbirth would her kid reject his/her father, just because she/he cant confirm it with the mother ?’ I belive he wont.

    >>you write: “6. A Description of East India Coasts of Malabar and Coromandel, Malabar Manual, Kerala Society Papers, none of these are the last words in history.” Of course not. But they are valid observations that were written back before a lot of the 20th century mass distortions took place

    John, how do you know about their authenticity ? What if the author was misinformed ?. You have to consider two case here. 1. His own observations that gets in to the book that he authors. 2. Stories or things that he has been told. Now I would say it is certain that these people were misinformed.
    Let me give you an example from “A Description of East India Coasts of Malabar and Coromandel” by Philip Baldeus.

    “The Christians of St. Thomas remained in the primitive purity of the Christian Religion till in time, for want of good pastors, they began to be infested with Pagan superstitions and were in most eminent danger of losing the truths of the gospel, had not Martome, a native of Syria had taken care the decayed state of Christianity in these parts; and being seconded in his endevours by diverse other teachers out of Syria, Babylonia, Chaldea and Egypt, the Syriac language was introduced and the former purity of the religion restored among them till in time the nestorian heresy gotfooting in Syria and was thence transplanted hither, as is sufficiently evident from the Reccords of Malabar.

    This Martome (Identified in their language as much as Lord Thomas) being much respected by the kings of Cranganore and Coulang, and by the Christians of St. Thomas in general, was declared as their Head; and the bishops of Cochin, Cranganore and Coulang sent for out of Syrian, there introduced Syriac Language and acknowledged the partriarch of Alexandira or Babylon for their Metropolitan, then at last they submitted to the pope of Rome; for the supreme eccelestical head of the Indians (at the persecution of the Portuguese)”.

    So clearly Martome or Knai Thoma as we can understand here is portrayed as being from Syria, definitely before the Council Ephesus, but also after the first Chera Empire, i.e when there existed three separate kingdoms of Cochin, Cranganore and Kollam. Does it make any sense ? What happend to nearly 400 years in between ? So did Kani thoma lived for 500+ years ? That doesnt sound sensible to my ears. This is what I said ‘Authors being misinformed’. clearly these people were misinformed and fed with propaganda stories. So the Academic validity that you would assign is doubtful.

    I havent dismissed any of the evidences that you have brought or even thoughts that you have presented. By I am just pointing out the credibility of the sources that you boasts of while completely dismissing any other possibilities. Also I would disagree with you on your *compiler* usage. For if you dont know, most of the scientific work is just mere compilations, where in you may not be required to do actual work but all you do is bring a ‘new thought’, a hypothesis which would be compiled out of many existing theories or sources, with proper references (plagiarism) and present it as a paper. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel always for it is ‘Easier to grow up on other’s shoulders’. So dont just write off some ones work just because there is little actual work done. (I havent read Dr. Menachery’s books so I am unable to comment with any sort of authority). Again Dr. Menachery has definitely brought a lot of awareness among the community which cannot be dismissed off.

    Don’t take the ‘Kitchen Blogger’ too seriously. Also I dont think there is any opponents here for you. (Dont be Quixotic. No offence meant. )

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  49. Can anyone explain why there are Thiruvalla/Kottayam/Thrissur sects of Nasrani names ? I see that down in the south (Thiruvalla-Kollam area) names like Oommen, Mammen, Chandy/Alexander, Abraham etc are far more common than Kottayam and Thrissur areas. And in Thrissur area there are Thrissur specific names (more common around there) like Anthony/Antu, Paul, Xaviour, Lonappan, and even special names like Chummar. In and around Kottayam area (Idukki/Kottayam/Tri-river valley state etc) have more general names though thomas/Joseph/Mani/Johny/Cherian/Kurian/kariya etc are more common.

    Any ideas ? As per the Nasrani Naming conventions ie. x bar y isnt all these pointing to 3 separate origins ????

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  50. Raju:

    1. The Nasranis were definitely a branch of the Persian East Syriac Church.

    2. I never said we were of Semitic origin. You’re obviously confused. But the Semites have clearly provided one input to our community. That is undeniable and has evidence. The Persian have provided another input. All of this in addition to our major input: Indian ancestors.

    3. You wrote this silliness: “From Tharisapalli copperplates? Did you even know that nowhere in the copperplates it is said that this guy (Maruvan Sapiriso) is a Bishop or even a Christian? Also it is not said that Tharisappalli is a christian church. In fact the term ‘palli’ need not to mean a christian church always.”

    a. I never said Maruvan SabrIsho was a bishop. He was by all indications a merchant. Maruwan is a Persian name: Mahervan (ref: Prof Modi in KSP).

    b. I never said Palli meant Church. Palli is the generic term of a non-Hindu temple in Kerala. Tarsa is the Persian word for Christian. The migrants from Persia consisted of East Syriac Christians. Hence “Tarisapally” is an obvious corruption of Tarsa-pally. Pally of the Tarsas — i.e., “Christian Temple”.

    Unlike the story of St Thomas in India, the arrival of Persian and Aramean bishops in Kerala is well attested. Perhaps you should investigate some more and then come back.

    Finally, I never started with a conclusion and rowed towards it, as you seem to believe. If you look at my oldest posts, I was a standard Jacobite, well-versed in that version of history. And after looking at the sources of our history have come to a better version of the story. And I’ve learned that our history is not as controversial as one thinks; many of the basic facts (East Syriac Church, originally subject to the Metr. of Fars) is well-supported. I’ll leave it to you to consult the primary sources to learn more. The NSC articles (as opposed to the discussion forums) are a great place to start.

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  51. Raju:

    Another thing, due to the relative lateness of the 9th c Persian immigration to Kollam, this stuff is still fresh in the memories of various families around Kollam who trace themselves to the Persian immigration. Obviously they are not pure Syriacs or pure Persians — as the Mappilla term suggests, they are the product of intermarriage between Indians and Persians and/or Syriacs.

    This isn’t fiction (as your Manichaean reference seems to be), but is well supported.

    Mani:

    I’m over the Southist as Jew thing. I really couldn’t care less about that community since it is not my community and I have no stake in their history. At one point I was trying to resolve the supposed Jewishness in their story with the total lack of any real Jewishness in their community. Then someone pointed me to the Yemeni marriage songs, and I thought, if that’s the case, then perhaps they are Black Jews.

    I thought that was the only remaining possibility since Thomas of Cana as their father is totally bogus and makes no sense whatsoever. Jewish Christians from 4th century Eddessa affiliated with either the CoE or the Syriac Orthodox Church makes not one shred of sense.

    So my interest in this was only peripheral. If you have found that the marriage songs claim is bogus, then perhaps my hypothesis was wrong.

    Again, I have no real concern in this matter since I am not a Southist. You on the other hand seem to have an obsession with this, so I’ll defer to you on this trivial topic.

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  52. John Mathew,
    When learned ‘Phd historians’ are disputing between themselves on same issue means they too are groping in dark and just ‘Promulgate’ each one’s theory.
    MGS, the ‘authority’ in Kerala/India history says Christianity is by Portuguese in 16th century. (Anybody think it is ‘cooked up’ by media, it is wrong. One media can be biased, all cannot be biased on same issue)

    And you say it is by Persian Christian in 4/5 century ! Same time you accept MGS, TK Joseph as scholars and the same caliber Dr. Menacherry is ‘pseudo-historian’…
    WOW, if this is not bias, then what is ?

    When you and MGS have opposing theories, that logically means BOTH COULD BE WRONG, and we are sure both ARE !! But I cannot go that far to call you people ‘Pseudo’…

    And we, major % of Nasrani has Apostle Thomas as our origin to Christianity. How?
    You know how an infant *knows* it’s mother?
    By Passport?, evidence? ID card?

    No, just by INSTINCT !
    YES, WHEN SCHOLARS GROPE IN DARK, we need not.
    And we have so many evidence to support our instinct….
    And you know how old is this instinct ? Nearly 2000 years….
    NO LIE CAN SURVIVE 2000 YEARS ! Aren’t you kidding uttering it is rubbish?
    And you people with a couple of years ‘scholarship’ proving it wrong?

    You are not alone….there were successive detractors challenging it for 2000 years….

    If the fact, belief survived 2000 years and thriving: THAT IS TRUTH, provable or not !

    Post a Reply
  53. “From the older comments from John Matthew, I can understand that this guy is really aggressive to establish that the Nasrani church is just a local branch of Persian church and Nasrani people have some Semitic origin. It seems like he is rowing towards his destination.”

    I have no way but subscribe to Raju Cherian….

    Post a Reply
  54. Hello Everyone.

    ‘MGS dismissing pre-Portuguese existence of Christianity in Kerala’ is just an RSS propaganda. No mainstream media has reported it. News papers like Hindu, TOI, HT etc keep all their content for years. There haven’t been any reference to this at all from any mainstream media. Please dont run after rumour-mongers. If you do, they win.

    MGS has officially attested the date of arrival of Thomas of Cana to be 535 AD and have published papers and books with the same. So this is clearly an attempt to malign his credibility and bring confusion to those concerned, which unfortunately happens to be ‘us’.

    After searching for this alleged, all I could find is about MGS dismissing Classical status of Malayalam, which again is in line with the facts.

    From TOI I could find the following comment on MGS by Ratheesh Veliyathu (oachira) replies to tpsnair
    04 Nov, 2011 12:36 AM. It reads

    “MGS.Narayanan is a professional in explaining and interpreting History,he is not available to fiddle our corrupt political leaders. He was appointed as the chairman of the National Historic Reaserch Institute(?) by the BJP Government and the aim of BJP Government was to SAFFRONIZE the Historical realities . MGS resisted the move and finally he got expelled. The Leftist once Supported him but when he accepted the “BJP OFFER” as National History Institute(name not sure?) he became a “FASIST” for them . For an average Malayalee, this is a good certificate for his ” CELEBRATED NEUTALITY”. See now he is speaking “AGAINST” malayalam language, this is another example for his professionalism as a committed Historian.500 -700 years that is the maximum age of this language, it is not in the Classical status instead we can demand for an “INFANT STATUS ” for malayalam. ”

    This is the real MGS as we all know.

    for details, please check http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-02/kochi/30350081_1_classical-language-indian-languages-tamil

    Post a Reply
  55. John, If you say I have an obsession with the Knas, yes I do. Why ? I feel disturbed when I hear things that doesnt sound sensible. I found the Manorama article by the Kottayam diocese to be void of any common sense. It was simply self promotion at its best, but at the cost of my community, which is nothing but a smear campaign. I am doing a final research on this subject as I have found some clues in the ‘Voyages to the East Indies’ and I am sure that the Cochinim wedding customs are not shared by the Knaim. (Ref. Tribes and Castes of Southern India). But I love this knas now, for I have become far more knowledgeable in history than I was.

    I should tell you that ‘You are a recognised scholar on this subject’, often referred by many. That is good. (joy) . When I searched Knanaya myth, I got this orkut page where they are drawing references from John Mathew on the Yemani Origins. So looks to me that we are on the same boat here. (You have also given the Knas an entry pass in to the southern tip of the Arabian Peninsula – thats acceptable to them anyway, They may not have become Lebanese, but they have become Yemanese, atleast. )

    “There is a discussion going on in NSC about the Knanites. The weight of evidence shows that the Knanites are Jewish. Knanites claim to be descendents of Cana Thomas seems to be a myth. As John Mathew correctly pointed out, the Knanites must be proud of their Jewish heritage and of their recent convertion to ‘Christianity (after AD 1599 or so)’.

    John Mathew goes on to say that the Knanites are of Yemeni Jewish origin. In my opinion, the Yemini Jews are not as ‘sophisticated’ as the Ashkenazi or the Persian Jews. The Yemini Jews are kind of ‘primitive’ by today’s wrong worldly standard. I suspect that it is this ‘primitive odium’ that is associated with the Yemini Jews that has rubbed into the Knanites and the Southists are uncomfortable with this. The Northists ‘smelled’ the odium and distanced themselves from the Southists. ”

    http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs?tid=5522960040161576789&cmm=3509349&hl=en

    Post a Reply
  56. Thanks Admin for the editing done as per request…

    Post a Reply
  57. Dear Varghese mani,
    You said: “Knanites claim to be descendents of Cana Thomas seems to be a myth. As John Mathew correctly pointed out, the Knanites must be proud of their Jewish heritage and of their recent convertion to ‘Christianity (after AD 1599 or so)’.”

    But to my info, any Knanaya will refute with you since they believe themselves as descendants of Cana Thomas, a Christian came from Persia.. And some of them believe and adamant that Origin of Christianity in Kerala through Cana Thomas and NOT THROUGH Thomas apostle, which we many Syrian Christians vehemently oppose.

    Now please elaborate your views on this issue, for my knowledge as ‘another’ view, if it differs from the above.

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  58. Dear Sunny, This is a classical example of some one getting misquoted/misunderstood inadvertently. I was quoting a thirdparty comment on some website who in-turn quotes John Mathew’s comments at NSC and draws conclusions from there. ( yes in some way you have proved how MGS’s comments could have been misreported. See that they have done it purposefully. ).

    My onion about the origin of the Knas is simple, that they are the sons of the soil, who are of Pallava origins which I am sure of, but not yet sure which tribe – Mukkulathor/Vellallar/Kuruba Dhangers. Still studying this. DNA science has proved it beyond doubt that they are the sons of the soil. Their culture is purely Hindu. I have posted some comments in the Thomas of Cana page which gives and exact idea of where I stand with reagard to this issue. http://nasrani.net/category/history/bishop-thomas-of-cana-history/

    They were just recently introduced to Christianity (most likely by the Portuguese). Before that they were wealthy Manikiyean chettiyars of Crangannore who were of Tamil origin, which is most likely with equal probabilities of Mukkulathor (or Thrikkettiyar or Thekkumbhagar) and Vellalla origins. The two other probabilities are 1) Dhagers from Kalyan, Mumbai and 2) Kuruba Dhangers (From the Southern Kanara and hence the name South Caneres ) of Killianpura, Mangalore both of which would make them Apostolic Christians, which is any way unlikely )

    Hope I am clear

    Post a Reply
  59. “They were just recently introduced to Christianity (most likely by the Portuguese). Before that they were wealthy Manikiyean chettiyars of Crangannore who were of Tamil origin”

    Any evidence for this?

    Post a Reply
  60. Paul,
    It is just my personal opinion (I was replying to Sunny). I have already posted proof for their cultural similarities with the three populations on the ‘Thomas of Cana’ page. we have a 11/12 match b/w the Vellalla customs and Knanaya customs. DNA evidence have been discussed here a lot (and few Kna DNAs are in the project). Portuguese connection, I am on the hunt for more evidences other than the ‘voyages ot the east indies’. (same with Manikiyean chettys – there are some discussions here already from others and I have posted a link to alackal.com where a book written by some Easo is availble which gives some idea). I would try to bring some evidence before I post it there.

    Post a Reply
  61. @ John Mathew.

    Thanks for all your valuable replies. They are abundant with info…
    I did learn a lot reading the comments here.
    I have one more query.

    Recently, from Karthikapally St. Marys church, a carcass was found, and since it was buried in seated position, it is believed to be of some West Syrian Bishop. Now, we have good knowledge of all the bishops, who have traveled from Syria, after Connen Cross Oath.

    Since, we do not know anything about this particular bishop, do we have reasons to believe possible west Syrian connections prior to Connen Cross Oath?

    Post a Reply
  62. Hello everyone,
    We have some mullaperiyar facts & figures with us. Would like to share with you (I dont like to make this forum a platform for things like this)if you like. This also covers a dam break analysis. If you be interested I can send/post this report (40pages). We have done extensive research and good amount of mathematical calculations. The document gives everything about the Dam (most aspects about dams in general), answers most of your doubts. I can say this is very unbiased. NOTE: – you wont get any of these from anywhere else. We have about 7-8 pages full of calcuations which will enrich you about Dams, Hydraulics, rivers, interesting properties of water. (will submit this to the minister & Fr. Joy Nirappel 2morrow)
    We found
    1. Water diverted is 44TMC on average. (a total of 130-150TMC diverted from Kerala)
    2. Power production is twice or more as reported
    3. 28MW of additional Capacity was installed after 2005
    4. Agriculture is only a side business
    5. Real issues behind the FRL are
    a. Hydraulic Pressure Head,
    b. Design head change because of the age of the equipment due to repair works done due to Cavitation damages & Silt issues
    6. We reveal the truth about the actual discharge capacities of the intake tunnel (2100cuces is only at 116feet . 5100cucecs at 136feet)
    7. We calculate the probable Maximum energy releases for MP & Idukki reservoirs
    8. We calculates the destructive power of the reservoirs
    9. We calculates the Time to empty the reservoirs on various modes of failures
    10. We calculate the time to Idukki
    11. We calculate the actual volume discharges likely on various modes of failures
    12. We do a Dam break Analysis and probable areas of flooding.
    13. We analyse the design issues with the Dam (birth defects which like no other dam. that this dam is built on 2000 year old technology)
    14. We do a stabilty & load analysis on the Dam (we explain everything related to seismicity on dams)
    15. We calculate the actual spillway capacities and expose the lies
    16. We reveal why certain droughts continue for ever and the actual intentions behind water diversions (drought-prone district of Sivaganga, living on a Mullaperiyar handout is generously hosting
    Coca Coal Factory)
    17. How Tamil Nadu is engineering drought, famine and power deficit in its neighbouring state
    18. Whole story of diversions, treaty violations and deceptive tactics of our neighbour
    19. Tamil Nadu’s Shadow war of Financial & Economic terrorism on Kerala
    20. Tamil Nadu promotes Agriculture & Industrial stagnation in Kerala & cause power deficits
    21. How TN is promoting the Badh & Hartal Culture
    22. We expose the myths of water shortage in Tamil Nadu and surplus in Kerala
    23. How Kerala pioneered Out sourcing ?
    24. How the Ambanis, Mittals all adopted the Kerala model for development ?
    25. Actual beneficiaries of Vidhyabhyasa Kachavadam
    26. Why Kerala should go for the Ambani Model of Capex funding
    27. How this nation has become a nonsense (Dr. Thatte is no exception. CAG has no knowledge of elementary economics. None of the facts about the flow metrics are correct.)
    28. Who gains by opposing Organised retail
    29. Why all FDIs aren’t that FDI ?
    30. How half of this country has already been stolen through strategic sales (HZL, MFL…)
    31. We are curious about the frequent Bund bursts in Kuttanadu in this winter times
    32. We are suspicious about the frequent incidents of elephant Vandalism in the border areas of
    Malappuram & Palakkad districts where as Idukki has no reported incidents of Violence,
    Vandalism, Bullying or Intimidation from its vast elephant population.
    33. We reveal how super powers are born (tunnel drilling, colonising pests)
    34. We reveal why large Tea Plantations are a threat to our food security and future.
    35. Why Kerala should acquire farm land in the Ukraine, Laos, Cambodia, Keniya rest of Africa
    36. Why we need to step up power production (boost wind power.)
    37. And we propose a new way of life for food security of the state.

    Dear Admin,
    If you are interested I can send you one for review (PDF)
    Apologies for posting this here.
    email – [email protected]

    Post a Reply
  63. So far only 5 people interested in it. Not good for a community that faces extermination.
    We are not trying to show off our ‘intelligence’ or anything. This is only for creating awareness. Just to show the government, politicians and officials that we, ordinary people of this country can calculate and do this technical stuff with out any technical background.

    Our findings are correct. Verified by ‘among the highest’ authorities I can reveal.

    Our estimations are in line with what the IIT Rourkee has come up with. We estimate 72000-81000Cumecs of discharge if a 120m/47.2m portion moves out which gives a horizontal velocity of 12.7m/s-14.3m/s at heights of 38.98m and 36.78m respectively which is in line with the IITs findings (12m/s at 40m hight)
    (Our full collapse discharge estimation of 140000-200000 may not fully accurate)
    All other calcuations for Idukki reservori and mullaperiyar are given with proper theoretical explanations.
    This is for making awareness among you. We intended to submit it on the 15th how ever the political stuff wasnt finished. But technical was completed.
    This is still a draft. Final distributable copies will be available tonight.

    Post a Reply
  64. Dear,
    Many people are confusing with Mar Sabor and Mar Abo.
    Mar Abo of Thevelakkara was not Mar Sabor who was related to his twin brother Mar Afroth(Mar Sabor and Mar Afroth). According to Niranam Grandhavary(Niranam Chronicles) . Mar Abo was Maravan a bishop who came with other Bishops Mar Denha , Mar Rabban and Mar Younan from (Nineveh)Persia to India after 900 A.D. He was the Guru of the famous Kadamattom Kathanar. The people of Kadamattom and thevelakkara called him very dearly Marachan or Mar Abo in Syriac Abo means father .They respected him dearly. Because he was really a saint , did many miracles by his prayer.He established churches at Niranam , Kadamattom , Kayamkulam , Akaparambu and Thevelakkara . He was entombed in Thevelakkara Marth Mariam orthodox Syrian Church.
    About Mar Sabor and Mar Afroth they are the twin brothers (Syrian Prelate)who came during 825 A.D . They too came from persia. Because during that time Malankara has strong connections with Persia(Patriarch of Seleucia-Cstesiphon). So the Bishops came from Persia to India. The Venad Ruler granted them Tharisapally Cheppeds(Copper Plates) now in the Custody of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.They are Katheesangal(Saints) . Because after their death many miracles happened in their name. Churches established with their name for example Kayamkulam Kadeesha OrthodoxChurch, Akaparambu Church, Kothanalloor Church(during portuguese period the kothanalloor church changed in the name of another twin brothers Saints Gervasis and Prothasis by roman Catholic Archbishop of Goa Menezes). Menezes after the Synod of Udayamperoor destroyed historical documents of Syrian Christians visiting every church.Both brothers Mar Sabor and Mar Afroth were entombed in old Kollam Church(Tharisappally) which was washed by Sea. Before 15th Century there was no catholic Church , no jacobite Church. Only St. Thomas Christians or Syrian Christians. Can also be named Nestorian Church. Because we followed East Syrian Liturgy. we don’t know what happened before 500 years. So please don’t confuse others. It is better not to make so many research on this. Because no records. Every church want to make themselves greater. We are one always the only St. Thomas Christians. May be now we are Jacobites, Catholics and Orthodox. We always are one… So please don’t confuse others and yourselves..

    Post a Reply
  65. Was Maravan a Bishop ?
    Niranam Grandhavari does not say that Maravan was a Bishop. It says- in AD 905, a Bishop called Mar Denha arrived. With him, three other people Younana, Rabban and Maravan also arrived. The term Mar Abo is not seen in Niranaom Grandhavari.
    This Younan was a monk who settled in Kuravilangadu for some time and the presence of an ancient pre Portuguese monastery at Kuravilangadu has been reported by many historians. Still there is a place called Youna kuzhy near Kuravilangadu.
    Younan was buried in Udayamperoor Church.
    I think, it is a later interpretation that Maravan was Mar Abo. It is possible that, as Maravan was a pius monk, people might have called him with a title Mar.

    Post a Reply
  66. Hi All,

    I have a query. Pre Portuguese era, connection between Malabar and Peria was spotty. With had Nestorian Bishops arriving at irregular intervals. In that cicumstance, how were the priests ordained? Was it compulsary that, a priest should be ordained by a bishop or did priests themselves conduct the ordination.

    Post a Reply
  67. Mr.John Mathew. ,

    First of all there is no church in the name of St.Mary ‘s at Karthikappally. That is St.Thomas church.Karthikappally is a place in between Haripad and Kayamkulam, where the dangerous thieves stayed..some ancient families also migrate there in the early centuries.But more christians are the converted…………

    The saint of malankara Jacobite and Orthodox church Mar Gregorius converted so many lower caste to Christianity.During the days of the Saint at Parumala, the Orthodox Church engaged in the conversion of dalits in to Christianity. Such conversions were taken place at Amayannoor, Veloor, Veliyanadu, and Karthikappally, etc places. At present in the above-mentioned places there is no dalit Orthodox Church exclusive. We cannot trace their identity at present. No doubt the process of fusion is taken place there. See Fr. Dr. Jacob Kurien, (ed), Parumala Smruthi, and Essay by Fr. John Thomas Karingattil, Parumala Tirumeniyudea Dalit Vimochana Darsanam, Kottayam, 2002, p 289; CMS Missionaries of Kottayam converted a large number of Ezhavas of Kumarakom and Ericadu (Kottayam district) in to Christianity during their early mission activities. Almost all these converts were then accommodated in the Orthodox Churches. They also now are unidentifiably absorbed in and presently constituting the part of the respective regions of Orthodox Church. Further more the Protestant Churches of this region only accommodate dalits only. What happened to the converts of the 19th century? For further details see The Missionary Register from 1818 to 1835.

    Post a Reply
  68. Why Nasranis are shown in bad light in all movies and TV serials in Malayalam? The major reason behind this is to plant a hatred in the subconscious mind of innocent people. There are many people from other communities believe Nasrani men are drunkards and womanizers and Nasrani women have a bad character. There is nobody to protest against this. Most of the serials in Asianet, Surya and Amrita TV are directed by RSS people and they show Christians as villains. Many people in Trivandrum city has a fear towards Kottayam Nasranis which reflects in their activities.

    Post a Reply
  69. If you are really looking for realities avoid these sites. This is run by couple of people in Canada, who pretend to know everything but in fact lack knowledge like everybody else. A continued theme in the site is these indivisuals never ending desire to be counted as people of “Jewish origin”. It does not matter if the first European traveller recorded that he witnessed a Christian community here, but that the community was very confused about Thomas and Jesus themselves, because these beleivers were not in contact with others in middle east.
    These Jewsih wannbes haven been posting the same BS about DNA studies for 3 – 4 years. I wonder why they were not invited by Israel to join them.
    They quote from books published 40 to 50 years ago, based on anecdotes and wishful theories just like they themselves are trying to propagate and call them ‘scientifc evdience”. If anyone posts anything against their line of thought they turn mean and jump down their thought,
    How many of you are regular Catholics and how many Knanayas? Anyway, great work.

    Post a Reply
  70. Many of the posts on these sites attract the criticism leveled in post 150974 above, however I think that there is an underlying historical validity to the Nasrani identity and to the Nasraye identity within Syriac Eastern Christianity that the Nasranis have been connected with, on and off over the last 2,000 years.

    Western Hellenized Christianity wants to ignore and suppress Syriac oriental Christianity because it does not agree with Hellenized forms of belief or practice. Judaism threw the Nasraye out of their synagogues and religion before the close of the 1st century AD and given the history since, it is not surprising that modern Judaism wants nothing to do with Nasranis. So, in my view, Nasranis and Syriac Easterners have their own unique identities, lying between these two fairly antagonistic camps. Nasranis are neither Jewish nor Christians in the modern senses of those terms. They are a valid expression of oriental Christianity and personally, I think that is great.

    Best regards,
    Steven.

    Post a Reply
  71. _______________________________
    Symposium on INTERFACING ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY at Marymatha Seminary, Trichur, India. August 10 &11, 2012.

    We are organizing a Symposium on Islam-Christian Dialogue, titled INTERFACING ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY. PROMISES AND PASTORAL CHALLENGES.

    Apart from the six scholarly papers, the inaugural paper is read by Dr G. Lazar, SVD from Hyderabad, an eminent scholar in Islam-Christian dialogue and the main paper is read by Prof. Dr Herman Teule from the Catholic University, Leuven, Belgium, an expert scholar in Middle Eastern Christianity and its Interactions with Islam in the MIddle East.

    Three papers are from eminent Islamic theologians and scholars. We hope to create a very friendly atmosphere where we discuss our relationship with Islam.

    There are possibilities for the participants to present short papers related to the main theme of the Symposium. If you are interested, please let me know as early as possible.

    Please make sure your participation in the Symposium as early as possible since we have only limited places left.

    There is no registration fee. If you are staying with us please let us know in advance.

    Fr Tony Neelankavil
    Secretary, MEPC

    http://nasrani.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Invitation-Interfacing-Islam-and-Christianity.pdf
    _________________________

    Email received from Fr Tony Neelankavil, Marymatha Major Seminary, Trichur:

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  72. “The Department of History St. Thomas College, Palai affiliated to the Mahatma Gandhi University, Kottayam propose to conduct an International Conference on the Megalithic burial monuments, such as the dolmens, menhirs, urn burials, rock-cut caves etc. in South India with special reference to those in Kerala.

    The relevance of the topic

    There are two unresolved mysteries in History. One is the disappearance of the Ten Israelite Tribes that the Assyrians had enslaved and transported to their lands and put them to slave for the empire. They eventually disappeared from history and the Bible refers them as the “Lost People”.

    The second unresolved mystery revolves around the megalithic dolmens and other burial sites discovered in different parts of Europe, Asia and the Indian Peninsula. There are no clues to the original owners of these monuments which were obviously burial sites. Remains of bones, implements and utensils used by these people have been found from some of these sites. These magnificent relics of an unknown people from remote past have not been claimed by any surviving people as belonging to their ancestors.

    Could they be the remains of a Lost People? Are there sufficient leads to trace the authors of these unique monuments? What follows is an effort at solving these mysteries for good. And possibly to discover their survivors too!

    The present conference on Megalithic Burial Monuments attempts to seek answers on doubts un cleared so far and questions unanswered till date. The discussion is initiated by the recently published books The Jewish Christians of India, The Jewish Background of Indian People, and The Megalithic Monuments of the Jewish Lost Tribes, authored by Abraham Benhur.

    The author asserts that the burial chambers found in the early Christian centres of Kerala go to prove that it were the Lost Tribes of Israel, whom St. Thomas had converted, when he arrived by sea to the trading port of Muziris in Kerala. He thinks that the Megalithic burial monuments found in the Caucasus mountains, Iberian Peninsula, British Isles Scandinavian Countries, Korea, Afghanistan, Baluchistan, Kashmir and the Indian Peninsula are of the Jewish authorship. Benhur’s study of the Megalithic burial monuments of south India and the ethnological and cultural features of certain communities, seeks to link the Pathans of Indian subcontinent, Bhatts of northern India, Bhattrais of Nepal, Bhattacharyas of Bengal, the Mizos in eastern India, the Patels of western India, the Chitpavan Brahmins of Maharashtra, The Gowda Saraswathas settled chiefly along the Konkan, the Reddies of Andhra Pradesh, the Coorgies of Karnataka, the Iyers and Ayankars of southern India and the St. Thomas Christians or Nazranis of Kerala to the Lost Tribes of Isreal.

    The books The Nazaranes, and St. Thomas Encyclopedia, written by Professor George Menachery and Indian Orthodox Church AD 52-2007 authored by Rev. Dr. Joseph Cheeran also would contribute to further strengthen the varied views arising in the conference. The ultimate aim of the international conference is to strengthen communal harmony, national integration and world peace.”

    For more details about International Conference on the Megalithic burial monuments please see:

    http://nasrani.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Conference-on-Megalithic-Burial-Monuments-of-the-Jewish-Diaspora.pdf

    “Abraham Benhur deserves whole hearted appreciation for his work ‘The Jewish Background of Indian People’. As a historical, archaeological, anthropological study, this work adopts a different and novel perspective to address a significant issue which has been discussed by various scholars. Benhur tries to prove that the history of the
    human race after the Flood began at one point. This opens up an interesting as well as fresh approach to the study of humanity.

    – Baselios Marthoma Paulose II Catholicos of the Apostolic Throne of St. Thomas and Malankara Metropolitan, Kottayam.

    For more details about ‘The Jewish Background of Indian People’ please see:

    http://nasrani.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/jewish-background-of-indian-people.pdf

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  73. This short clip is the story of our ancestry. Many of us identify under various ancestry as Kerala is a fascinating state where people of many different communities and religions live together in unity. There are many diverse ethnic groups among the people of Kerala. The 4 main ethnic groups are as follows.

    Negritos: The earliest known inhabitants of Kerala were the Negritos (People of the Negroid race). Members of this race lived by hunting and by gathering plants and fruits. These people have dark skin and tightly curled brown hair and are less than 1.5 metres tall. Descendants of this race still inhabit the mountain regions of the state. They have a good knowledge of herbal medicine and were skilled in interpreting natural phenomena.

    Australoids: After the Negritoes came the Proto-Australoids (Austrics), who spread over the whole of India. These belonged to the same race as the present-day Australian Aborigines. They represented a race of medium height, dark (in some cases black) complexion with long heads and flat noses. They laid the foundation of They introduced the cultivation of rice and vegetables and made sugar from sugarcane. They introduced snake-worship in Kerala.

    Dravidians: By 700 B.C., the Dravidians (The Mediterranean People), who migrated from the Mediterranean region, spread to the whole of India especially in the south, supplanting the Austrics and Negritoes alike. The Dravidians are the ancestors of majority of the present day Malayalees. They absorbed many of the beliefs of the Negrito and Austric people, but they were strongly inclined to the worship of the Mother Goddess in all her myriad forms: Protector, Avenger, Bestower of wealth, wisdom and arts.

    Aryans: After the Dravidians came the Aryans who had already settled over northern India from the Mesopotamian region. They migrated to south India during circa 300 B.C. The “white” or fair-skinned Brahmins belonged to this stock. By the advent of Aryans, caste system also formed in Kerala. The Aryans have made a deep impression on Kerala in late proto-historic times.

    Today, Kerala population is the melting pot of various races, religions and ethnic groups. The vast majority of Keralites carry three racial strains in their genetic make-up; Munda, Dravidian, and Aryan. Of this, majority of today’s Keralites have a Dravidian ancestry. Nevertheless, many of them pride themselves on their Aryan descent.

    The major tribes who inhabit the mountains of Kerala are Kanis, Uralis, Kadar, Kanikkar, Paniyar etc. They are considered to be the descendants of the Negrito race.

    Go back in history and experience the life here in this web link

    http://pazhayathu.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/old-travancore-kingdom-kerala-photos.html

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  74. ““History of Christianity in India”, multi-volume project of Church History Association of India, written by Dr. John C. B. Webster was released on October 30, 2012 at 4.30 pm at the Constitution Club of India, New Delhi.

    Copies can be ordered from:

    Business Manager, CHAI, Dharmaram College P.O., Bangalore 560 029

    Price: For Students & Researchers in India– Rs. 150.00 (plus P&H –Rs. 30.00)

    Asia, Africa, Latin America– US $ 12.00 (or equivalent in Indian Rupees)

    All Other Countries – US $ 25.00 (or equivalent in Indian Rupees)

    Send Cheque / Draft in favour of CHURCH HISTORY ASSOCIATION OF INDIA payable at Bangalore.

    Please give information about this book in your institutions and churches.

    History of Christianity in Northwest India in the 19th and 20th Centuries is the latest book to appear in the Church History Association of India’s (CHAI) multi-volume History of Christianity in India project. Departing from earlier patterns of historical writing on Christianity, this series has been written from a ‘New Perspective’ which combines the socio-cultural with the ecumenical and uses the region as its basic working unit.

    This book covers present-day Delhi, Haryana, Punjab, Chandigarh, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, as well as pre-Partition Pakistan, the Punjab and Northwest Frontier Province and sets the history of Christianity within the context of the socio-political history of the region. This was, until Independence, a Muslim majority region of India and the Christians there were, until quite recently, overwhelmingly Protestant. These features, plus the fact of Partition, give Christianity’s history in Northwest India a distinctive quality.

    This history begins in 1800 when there were only a few scattered Christians in Delhi. It traces the encounters, growth, challenges, and the changing nature of the Christian community from then up to the present time. It treats the subject chronologically and highlights major developments within each period: e.g., Christianity and the Revolt of 1857; the important role played by mission education in the 19th century; the Christian encounter with urban religious reform movements and with rural Dalits; Christians and the nationalist movement both outside and inside the Churches; the Christian Churches, institutions, and community in the changing political and economic context of independent India.

    George Oommen
    General Secretary
    Church History Association of India”

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  75. I am the founder,historian&Coordinatior ofKalikavu/kaliyankal Gobal kudumbayogam.I know most of the branches and subbranches of this family still B.C. All branches&subbranches consider me as a brother or as a family member.Kalikavu family come from northIndia called Ariyavaratham in B.C.itself.Kaliavu familyruled paliyour&paravoor villages(out of 64 villages) in B.C.this 64 village ruling is called “samudayabhranam”.these rulers are from 64 ariabhramin family. these are the first Bhramin familes settiled in kerala.In a difficult situvation these 64 familes get togher andselect 4familes as leaders.then they divided the 64 villages into 4 “Thallies”and give eachThally to the 4 familes.this 4 thallies are called”mathally, kezhuthally,Nadiyathally&chingapurathally”.each thally gets 16 villages out of 64 villagesof kerala.In this kalikavu family got Nadiyanthally,which is paravoor.this is in B.C.After the rulers of ParavoorNediyathally the ParavoorKalikavu branch is called “Neduthally soorupam”.After years Kalikavu is ignored and paravoorKalikavu become known as ‘Neduthally soorupam’.Now also paravoor Kalikavu branch is known ‘Neduthally soorupam’. From B.C. to A.D 1764 Kalikavu NeduthallySoorupam ruled Kerala. so Kalikavu family is the rulers of Kerala from B.C. to 18th centuary.Malliyankara the first steps of st. Thomes is the ruling place of Neduthllysoorupam.most of the royal family members get baptisam from st.Thomas and they(neduthally king)give their family temple to st. Thomas.this is the’Kottkavu church,the one among the seven churchs st.thomas builts.Hindus of kalikavu Nedumthallysoorupam is called as ‘vadakappattil kovilakam’ and the christians of kalikavunedumthallysoorupam is called as Thakkapattil kovilakam.” Most of the Kalikavu branchs of playoor also baptized from st. Thomas.st.thomas give priesthood to the palayoor kalikavu branch. thus the two branches becme christians from st.Thomas.

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  76. I belong to Kannadi Thundiyil family of Kuttanadu tracing its origins to Niranom Maliyekkal family of the undivided Syrian Christian community. Maliyekkal Thomma Ramban the famed author of Ramban Pattu who is also the first consecrated Bishop of Malabar (ordained by St Thomas himself)is traditionally believed to be one of the ancestors in the original line of the Maliyekkal family. It is also believed that St Thomas gave a copy of the New Testament (Gospel of St Matthew) to the Ramban. The same it is believed was taken by Pantaenus to Alexandria. Tracing the descendants of the Ramban and the Maliyekkal family have proved futile till date. Can anyone help?

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    • I just gone through the statement that St Thomas given copy of Gospel written by St Mathew to your family which is unbelievable as St. Thomas’s mission to India was between AD 52 and AD 72, the Gospel by St Mathew according to the history written between AD 75 and AD 90. The claim in respect of the ordained a family member as bishop by St. Thomas also doubtful as the Christian hierarchy system implemented gradually after death of St. Thomas in AD 72. I believe St. Thomas came to Kerala with the merchants of Jewish community and preached about Jesus Christ to those community mainly. The areas St Thomas founded church had Jewish colony at that time. The main intention of preaching Gospel was to the lost sheep of Israel as St. Thomas reached in India in AD 52 and at that time, there didn’t had any decision by the Apostles to preach good news to any other people out of Jewish community. When all Syrian Christians wish to claim that they are converted from upper class Hindus, Namboodiris, it is obviously a wrong concept as there didn’t had much influence of hindu religion but hindu culture mixed with Buddist and Jainist religion.

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    • The maliyekkal family in changanacherry are the descendants of the same ramban and still holds to maliyekkal family name and vouches about the New Testament copy from St Thomas.

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  77. Most of the so called family history is fabricated probably in eighteenth and nineteenth century .Record Keeping was not vogue in kerala prior to european entry especially among the syrian christians there are only few written documents . The history of syrian christians is rather obscure .As Xavier told the brahmin conversion story in 1st century AD is without any base and can be discarded .In those times there were no brahmins in kerala and the religious climate was a mix of indigenous beliefs with buddhism/jainism .Many of the cultural similarities with brahmins are adopted later .
    @ Jose – i have noticed the family name maliyekkal among malabar families among both muslims and hindus .Wonder they could be related

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  78. Ramban meant Monk, so I doubt her ever married or had children. But surely he had brothers or cousin brothers who did, as even in Maramon, Near to to the Kurianoor I come from, there is a branch of the Maliekkal family, One famous menmber of this family was Alexander Mar Thoma, Metran (Bishop) of the Mar Thoma church til recently.

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  79. I fully agree with Mr.Xavier Vakayil that St Thomas could not have given a copy of the gospel to a member of this particular family as all the
    gospels were wriiten after this period. It is high time the right
    thinking Syriac Christians start exposing people who claim such nonsense just to win a point over all the other families. This is true with respect to the claim that St Thomas converted brahmins from 4(or more?) families when history says that there were no brahmins in Kerala in the 1st century. So from where do these people get their facts and they even put it in their family history(so called kudumbacharithram). High time they started correcting their concoted family history. Just because they wanted to claim that they belong to a superior community they started this myth and now that they are caught they donot know how to come out of this paradox. People who are ignorant about the social history of Kerala beleive all these nonosense spread by such family members. It is high time these people are exposed and told that what they say is nonsense. St
    Thomas may have reached Kerala in the first century and may have converted local peole but they sure were not brahmins!

    Joy Thomas

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