‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery 3.71/5 (74.29%) 7 ratings
'The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India'- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

Notes about the Editor

Prof. George Menachery is a freelance Indian Journalist and Editor of the St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India and the Indian Church History Classics. After teaching university classes for thirty years, he gave up the job as Head of the Department of Post-Graduate Teaching in order to concentrate on research and publication. SARAS (South Asia Research Assistance Services) provides information and research assistance for topics dealing with India in particular and South Asia in general. He has to his credit a large number of publications, research papers, articles, radio talks and TV programmes. His research activities and lectures have taken him to more than 20 countries in 4 continents.

About St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II

The St.Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II is a reference work on Saint Thomas history. In addition to a wealth of statistical information and directory material, specialist essays have been contributed by hundreds of Archaeologists, Anthropologists, Artists, Historians, Educators, Biographers, Lexicographers and Researchers.

'The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India'- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

There are also separate articles on each Church, Denomination, M

'The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India'- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

ission, history, culture, scripture, liturgy, art, architecture, archaeology, dialogue, Indianization, evangelization, ecumenism, anthropology, sculpture etc

Major Articles in Volume II

• Faith and Character of St. Thomas – Mathew Vellanickal
• Mission and Life of St. Thomas in India – Dr. Varkey Vithayathil
• Excavations at S. Tome-Mylapore – E. R. Hambye
• Roads to India – Maggy G. Menachery

'The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India'- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

• Did St. Thomas Really Come to India – H. Comes
• The Acts of Thomas – Anthony Porathur
• Faith and Communion of the St. Thomas Christians – Xavier Koodapuzha
• History of the Kerala Church in the Pre-portuguese period – Xavier Koodapuzha
• The Church in Kerala at the Coming of the Portuguese – Paul Varghese (Paulose Mar Gregorios)
• Christians in Malabar in Dutch Times – T. I. Punnen
• The Dutch Period – T. I. Punnen
• History of St. Thomas Christianity in India to the Present Day – A. M. Mundadan
• The Latin Rite in Kerala – L. M. Pylee
• The Origin of the Latin Christians of Kerala – Thomas Thayil
• The Mission and Life of St. Francis Xavier in South India – J. M. Villarvarayan
• The Re-Union Movement – Thomas Inchakalody
• A “Jewish Christian” Community – Jacob Vellian
• The Knanaya Community of Kerala – E. P. Mathew
• The Syrian Orthodox Church – Paul Varghese (Paulose Mar Gregorios)
• Introduction of the Antiochene Rite into the Malankara church – Cyril Malancheruvil
• Malankara Syrian Knanaya Christian Community – Jacob Stephen
• The Mar Thoma church – T. V. Philip
• The Malabar Independent Syrian Church of Anjoor – Philexinose III

'The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India'- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

• Church of the East – Mar Aprem
• Inter Church Movements in Kerala – K. K. Chandy
• Role of the Eastern churches in Ecumenical relations – E. R. Hambye
• The Society of St. Thomas (Christhavashramam) Manganam – P. T. Thomas
• An Ecumenical Attempt of the Eighties – Abraham Nidhiry
• Church Unity in Kerala : Some Historical Cultural Consideration – T. V. Philip
• Mission of the Eastern Church in India – E. R.Hambye
• Feasts of the Thomas Christians – Joseph Neelankavil
• The Sacraments of the Malabar Church before 1400 A. D. – J. Hilarion
• Syro Malabar Liturgy Down the Centuries – Jacob Vellian
• Patriarchal Dignity for the Malabar Church – Paul Chittilappilly
• Role of the Syro Malabar Church in the Field of Evangelisation – Abraham Ettackakunnel
• Culture and Traditions of the Thomas Christians – Joseph kolengadan
• Character and Life Style of Thomas Christians – Alexander Cherukarakkunnel
• Community Traits of Thomas Christians – Sadhu Ittiavira
• The Syrian Christian Women – Mrs. K. M. Mathew
• The Thomas Christian Copper Plates – Z. M. Paret
• Thomas Christian Architecture – E. J. James Menachery
• Kerala Church Architecture – Andrews Athapilly
• Malayalam Literature and Kerala Christians – T. M. Chummar
• Thomas Christians and Journalism – John Pellissery

'The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India'- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

‘The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India’- Volume II , Chief Editor Prof.George Menachery

• Malayalam Language and Foreign Missionaries – Thomas Mathew Kottarathumkuzhi
• Songs, Arts, Festivals of the Thomas Christians – Chummar Choondal
• Kerala Christians in the Field of Social Service – P. T. Thomas
• Pontifical Institute of Philosophy and Theology Alwaye – Dominic OCD
• Indianisation Among the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala – Alexander Cherukarakkunnel
• Christian Influences on Hinduism before the European Period – P. Thomas
• The Seven Churches of St. Thomas – V. C. George
• Religions in Kerala – Varghese Kodickal
• History of the Jews of Kerala – S. S. Koder
• The People of Kerala – E. J. Thomas Menachery
• Adaptation and the Future of Indian Christianity – Joseph Parecattil

How to Get a Copy

The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II is priced at Rs. 1950 in India and US $95 abroad. This is published by South Asia Research Assistance Services ( SARAS). More details can be obtained from IndianChristianity.com. There is also an order form at the site.

Pictures

1. Front Cover of St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II
2. Inner Cover page of St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II
3. Kottupura of Palai Cathedral- Where musical instruments are kept from St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II
4. Painting of death of the Aposlte at the Parur Church from St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II
5. First Issue of the Nazrani Deepika from St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II

6. Silver Casket at Niranam Church from St. Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India Volume II

__________________________________________________________________________

Author can be reached on admin at nasrani dot net.
More details about the book available at SARAS. __________________________________________________________________________

Author: NSC- Admin

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158 Comments

  1. can you pls put more articles on the evidence of St Thomas visit to India . We Syro-Malabar Christians are looking forward for that . Thanks.God Bless You

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  2. Thanks for providing this information. I didnot know that we have such classic books about our way of life.Thank you.May god be with you.

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  3. In 2001 Dr. Mini Kariappa Asst. Professor/ Professor of Anatomy & Genetics at the Jubilee Mission Medical College of Thrissur and Kolenchery College of Medicine started her herculean task to diagnose hundreds of blood samples for DNA mapping at the Hyderabad Center.When she shared her findings with me in 2005 I included a sentence about her finding that the Chitpavan Brahmins, the Tulu Brahmins, the Namboothiris and the Nazranies or Syrian Christians all have the same DNA factors i.e. those of the Jews in my paper at the 13th Triennial of the Chuch History Association of India CHAI at Goa on ASPECTS OF THE IDEA OF “CLEAN AND UNCLEAN” AMONG THE BRAHMINS, THE JEWS, AND THE ST. THOMAS CHRISTIANS OF KERALA which can be accessed at http://www.indianchristianity.com or http://www.nazraney.com. Her paper on her DNA experiments won for her colleague The Best Young Scientist of the World Award. Now she has presented her paper at the World Genetic Conference held at Manipal and has been published in their Journal.Recently she gave a presentation of her interesting findings at Kuravilangad inaugurated by Mr. K. M. Mani and attended by more than 700 scholars including MLAs Bishops Metropolitans &c. presided over by Prof. George Menachery.More than 500 blood samples were collected on the spot by Hyderabad scientists led by Manavendra Singh and a team of 10 nurses for free examination. Read below part of her paper which will be presented at the Platinum Jubilee and 15th Triennial Conference of CHAI the Church History Association of India 6-9 Oct. 2011 at Hyderabd
    You may ask Dr. Mini’s permission to correspond with her “Mini Kariappa” ,
    -Prof. George Menachery

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  4. Dear Prof. George Menachery,
    I was at Kuraviangadu when you introduced Dr. Mini Kariappa. With all respect, let me ask a question. Ms. Mini Kariappa told that Jehovah appeared to her and do the project. After the coming of Jesus Christ, there is no such revelation given to anyone in the Bible. The last book of the Bible, Revelation, reveals Jesus the Son of God. Then how can we believe such studies done by the intervention of God? Will God go against His own word? Apostle Paul used the names of Jesus Christ more than in forty times in three epistles, his beautiful description of Jesus Christ, our Lord in the book Colossians. I did not hear a reference she made to Jesus. I am asking it since you are writing encyclopedia about Marthoma CHRIST IANS.

    Could you explain it?

    I shall be grateful to you, if you do so.

    Aji Matthew

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  5. Dear Aji Mathew,

    There is nothing unscriptural or wrong in Dr. Mini Kariappa’s claim that God appeared to her. God does appear to humans. If that incident was her changing point, then good for her and for all of us.

    What is most important is that God tells her that she belongs to Israel and she is doing all she can to show all her brothers and sisters that they too belong to Israel. This is noble of her. I trust she will lead our Nasrani community into our true Israeli faith, from where we have parted ways since many centuries.

    What I fear most is that those who attended the meeting will misuse the knowledge obtained and drag us further away from our Israeli heritage.

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  6. Quite true that some of those who attended the meeting might misuse the knowledge obtained. They may drag us further away on their agenda. Some people don’t even have the ability to listen properly and comprehend the summary. They get carried away by their theology. People seem to hear just what they want based on their leanings. What some one here who attended the meeting seems to got is Romans and bible verses and his theological cliché. I think it is sick with these people. Why don’t you just keep that away ?

    The merit of Dr. Kariappa’s findings will finally be just based on what it has to offer scientifically.

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  7. Are the organizers bringing out a printed volume of the presentations. If so please let me know, I would like to get a copy.

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  8. Following are replies received from Prof. George Menachery by email.

    Aji Matthew: If I remember right I did not make any mention of the matter you have raised. My interest in Dr. Mini Kariappa’s paper is merely academic and I have always been trying to make use of any tool brought to my attention to probe and arrive at historical veracity. GM

    Tom: CHAI = The Church History Association of india is bringing out a Platinum Jubilee volume at hyderabad containing 75 papers presented at various CHAI Triennials &c. May be a future volume will contain Dr. Mini ‘s paper. Of course a synopsis will be printed in the 15T & PJ brochure.-GM

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  9. Dear Georgekutty:
    Thanks for the link to the newspaper report of the interview with Dr. Mini Kariappa. Interesting. The report reminds me of some of the views expressed by Dr. Avigdor Shachan regarding (some) ancient Israelites and their descendents being in India! I could try to post a brief review of his book on the topic if the NSC forum is interested.
    I would, nevertheless, like to see scientific details of Dr. Mini Kariappa’s research results and conclusions. If you know of any link(s) to scientific/technical reports of her DNA research on Nazranee, Jewish and other Hindu communities, please let me know.
    Thanks,
    Kuruvilla Cherian

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  10. Dear Admin:
    Thanks for all the forwarded comments on Dr. Mini’s paper. Considering the considerable interest shown by your valuable correspondents in the matter, and in the interests of transparency to avoid inacurate surmises I havoday uploaded a version of the paper at http://www.indianchristianity.com (NewsDigest Page). I have also asked the paper to be hosted at http://www.nazraney.com (Journakl of Kerala History – News section). Hope you will find it useful.

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  11. Dear,

    Here is an opinion from Bonnie S., who was involved in my DNA testing/study.

    Kindly note that I am only copy pasting an opinion by another genetist. I am neutral.
    The below was received this morning.
    ************************************
    Dear George,

    Thanks for sending me this paper. I’m afraid that I don’t find it very impressive, though. It appears to not be a very well constructed study or paper.

    I did not see anywhere that they describe the location, or specific communities in which they found their Indian Jewish samples, or in what circumstances. According to my studies, I have learned that the vast majority of the Jews of Kerala have already emigrated to Israel, with only a few families remaining. If they found 175 individuals in Kerala genuinely belonging to that population, they must have had great success in gaining the cooperation of a large percentage of the Jews living there. Or did they accept anyone who claimed to have Jewish ancestry? If you know Dr. Mini Kariappa, maybe you can explain this to me.

    The portion of the study devoted to mtDNA may be quite interesting, but I only have time to review the material related to the Y chromosome.

    Note that the Y-SNP results chart, Table 2, at the end, is cut off on the right side, and much of it cannot be viewed. They only tested a few Y SNPs, and the conclusions that they drew from them appear to be highly speculative.

    They did not test for M267, the marker for J1. Yet in the Conclusions they state, “In Y chromosome study the J1 and low frequency of H1 has been observed which supports the theory significantly.” In fact, there is no data presented which shows the presence of any J1.

    In addition, they state in the Results section on page 8, “Presence of haplogroup J2, which is very specific to the Jews population from rest of world, though they are in low percentage.” This statement is false, since the majority of J2 persons in the world are not Jewish, nor of Jewish ancestry. J2 is known to have existed in the Indian population from a very early date, thousands of years before the arrival of the Middle Eastern settlers in Kerala. This has been described in many papers such as the famous one by Sengupta.

    I did not see any mention of Brahmins or Tamil Nadu in the paper, though I may have overlooked it. I would be glad to know where they are discussed in it.

    Surely the history of the Jews and Christians of Kerala deserves a much better study than this one.

    Bonnie

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  12. Dear Prof Menachery

    Thank you very much. As i understand, the paper is still under preparation. Thank you for sharing with us.

    Re posting the link if anyone missed . The paper is titled “Genetic structure of Indian Jewish Diaspora and their genetic affinity with rest of the Jews from the world” by Manvendra Singh, Mini Kariappa,Lalji Singh, Kumarasamy Thangaraj.

    http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/Dr.MINI_Paper_JEWS_manuscript_jews.pdf

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  13. http://www.jewishjournal.com/my_pakistan/item/pakistans_jewish_roots_20110308/

    Comment by Dennis Dey on 7/06/11 at 9:48 am
    Why do you assume there was only one ethnic group in Kashmir? Why could there not have been Buddhists, Hindus & Jews living side-by-side? There is a much older Jewish tradition that originates in Midhrash Rabba Beresheeth that says that Abraham send his wife Qeturah’s sons Eastwards. Others explain that those children of Abraham are Brahmans (the same etymology). I’ve always thought it would be interesting to see if the Brahman have Jewish DNA (as was found in Mumbai’s Bene Israel).

    The very name “India” in Hebrew is “Hodu” which means “glory.” In Hebrew a Jew is “Yehudi,” while Indian is “Hodi,” which in Hebrew is a difference of only the letter “Y” (yod/yud/yodh)which is the transcendental aspect of perfection, but I digress. I know people of Jewish background in America that have forgotten about it after only TWO generations because it was extra, unwanted “baggage” or maybe no longer relevant to them.

    Goodness, Jewish DNA just turned up amongst the Cherokee, yet they have no memory of Jewish origins. Once we saw here in Jerusalem that much of the so-called Palestinians have the SAME Jewish DNA as ASHKENAZIM (!!!), it seemed anything were possible.

    These same Palestinians were previously calling ASHKENAZIM Khazarim/Kuzarim from Kazarstan & it now it turns out they are one community! You remind me of a Bulgarian woman who told me about local gypsies near her home. I was fascinated & began to explore this particular group & it turned out that they were not gypsy in origin at all, rather they were a GREEK community. Iran borders Afghanistan & 250 yrs ago Afghanistan was part of India, why does it sound so strange to you that Kashmir could have been full of Jews???
    *******************************

    I was searching for the above information, when it came my way. What a chance! The comments on 9:47 seems to be from serious people who have good knowledge of the DNA subject. I got the cite from an Orthodox Jew from Jerusalem just a few hours ago.

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  14. I’m personally very interested to learn of possible connections between the Jews and the Nasranis, especially since the Syrian Christian DNA project has interesting results, coupled with the presence of Pesaha in Kerala, and coupled with the reported stories of Jewish heritage that some northern Nasrani families report.

    However, this paper by Kariappa, et al., in its draft form, is a disappointment. I look forward to the day that some serious scientists tackle the question of a possible Nasrani/Jewish relationship.

    It is very strange to read the comments here surrounding the work of Dr. Kariappa. Some are talking about our “Israeli heritage” of all things! (That should be “Israelite” not “Israeli”, Jacob John. Understand the difference.) And what heritage is that exactly? Apart from Pesaha, we don’t have a single Jewish custom at all!

    I’m not anti-Jewish; in fact, my personal religion more allied with the Old Testament than with Christianity, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to invoke fantasy to make believe that I am a Jew. I have no evidence whatsoever for this. And neither does anyone else, apart from some Nasranis who’ve done DNA tests which indicate that they have a single male ancestor who may have been a Jewish priest. But apart from that, and from some northern families who seem to have some memory of Jewish ancestors (who probably converted to Christianity in the last one thousand years, and hence have been Christians for that long — hardly a recent cover up!), they is no evidence that *all* Nasranis were descended from Jews. Some of our ancestors may have been, but the list of our ancestors includes other groups as well: Indians, Persians, and Assyrians.

    By comparison, if you want to study a people who have bonafide solid Jewish credentials, you can study the Ethiopians. Now *there* is a people that can demonstrate their connections to their Jewish ancestors. Us? We have nothing at all compared to them. We look like a bunch of Johnny-come-lately converts to Christianity, compared to the Ethiopians. Actually, reading what people on NSC have written recently, we look like those crazy Baptist converts in NorthEast India who are trying to forge a Jewish claim just so they could immigrate to a country that is economically better-off. Is that what this is all about? The Persian Gulf Arab countries are about to run dry, to the Kerala Nasranis are trying to find their next economic haven?

    And reading Kariappa’s draft, doesn’t inspire much confidence either that there’s any serious scientific work in this area. In fact, this draft probably shoudn’t have been released, because it makes the authors look scatter-brained, as if they have no attention-span at all. First they claim Jews as “recent” immigrants, then they report one theory suggests the Jews arrived in the 6th c BC (which is ancient, not recent). They then report another theory where the Jews arrived in the 15th c. All in rapid succession, in the same paragraph. These are not mutually exclusive “views” on the origins of Jews in Kerala! These are descriptions of totally different waves of Jewish immigrants!

    The authors don’t have much understanding of the Jews of India, and didn’t seem to have done even the slightly amount of research to get this understanding. For example, in Kerala there are the Black Jews (who are the oldest community; no proof for their supposed presence since the “time of Solomon” but they were in India at least in the 12th c — as told by their graves). Then the White Jews (who arrived from Eastern Europe, and the Middle East in the centuries close to the 15th c). Then the Brown Jews, who are supposedly Indian converts. Not separating “Indian” Jew into these categories seems to be a basic error, since these groups don’t intermarry. The Black Jews in particular would be very interesting to study, in terms of their genetic makeup. I’m still betting that the Southists are Black Jew converts to Christianity. Someone once said here on NSC that the Black Jews had no Cohenim: very interesting, considering that Nasranis do have Cohenim (George Mathew, et al.).

    The authors also invoke some pretty baseless theories, claiming a supposed Thomas of Cana was a blood relative of Jesus. Thomas of Cana is like a free variable: some say he was a Jacobite, some a Nestorian, some a Catholic, some a Jew, and now, a Jew who was blood related to Jesus. And this is an academic paper?!

    And now some claim that all the Nasranis are Israelis?!?!

    I can see the claim can be made that *some* Nasranis are descended from Jewish converts to Christianity. That’s obvious: just as George Mathew or some of the Pakallomattom folks who seem to all carry the Cohen Model Haplogroup. They almost certainly are descended from Jewish priests who converted to Christianity. Did the authors study these folks? Since the authors are on a treasure hunt for the “lost tribes” and since they claim, out of thin air, that the Syrian Christians are a good target, why don’t they look for the strongest claim of Jewish converts in the Nasranis: people who carry a very specific trait common to Jewish priests, and who also have a tradition of priestly ancestors (Pakallomattom).

    But one can’t claim all Nasranis as Jewish converts because we also have similarly strong evidence to suggest that ethnic Persian Christian, and ethnic Assyrian/Aramean migrants also formed one part of our ancestry. And we can’t deny that they all intermarried with Indians.

    Unless I’m missing something, I think this study is missing some very low hanging fruit.

    1. Study of the priestly Nasrani families
    2. Study of the Nasranis from geographic areas where specific migrants were reported to come from (Kodungalloor, Kollam, Thiruvithamcode, Nilackal/Kanjirapalli/Kadampanad).
    3. Study of these in relation to the black jews, brown jews, and white jews
    4. Study of the Southists

    It seems that if the authors had a bit better guidance they’d have targetted their study better.

    Other jewels:
    “Christianity came to Kerala long before they went to Europe” : Right! I suppose that’s why the Epistles of Paul were all directed to the Churches in Europe and Asia Minor.

    Jews are endogamous in part of the paper, and then they are highly admixed with the surrounding population in another part of the paper.

    The paper in the beginning talks about Syrian Christians in India being a possible candidate for a lost tribe of Israel … but the whole rest of the paper is looking at Indian Jew DNA samples. Did they look at any Syrian Christians as well? Or was that a fantasy of the introduction?

    Hopefully the final polished paper addresses some of these short comings, otherwise it will look like a typical academic paper from a modern Indian journal … which is (as hard as it is for me to say it), worth less than the paper it was written on. Can someone explain how India fell so hard? At the beginning of the last century we had truly great scientists: Bose, Bhaba, etc., who could easily compete on the international stage. How did we get from such heights to this?

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  15. Much interesting and enlightening material has been coming out on the site on the Jewish question. Here it may be interesting to note the similarities in the customs, behaviour paaterns, and above al the attitude to the idea of “clean and unclean”, Shudda-Ashuddam, or pollution and purity among the three scrutinised communities i.e. the Jews, the (Nambuthiri) Brahmans, and the Nazraneys in a paper presented at Goa in 2005, where for the first time a reference is made to the research findings of Dr. Nini Kariappa.. BROWSE THE ARTICLE:ASPECTS OF THE IDEA OF “CLEAN AND UNCLEAN” AMONG THE BRAHMINS, THE JEWS,
    AND THE ST. THOMAS CHRISTIANS OF KERALA. at http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/Books10.htm or http://www.nazraney.com/journal7.htm

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  16. John Mathew,
    Your last post 45267 and reference to Ethiopian Jews whom you mention as being more close to Jews of ancient time. It could very well be. But have you thought about Ethiopian emigrants of old among Syrian Christians? I f you were to look at the world map you will be amazed as to how close Indian subcontinent is to the old Ethiopian empire and how is easy it would be for Ethiopians to boat down to India from the horn of Africa perhaps to some point just north west of Karachi in Pakistan. This would be easier than travelling down to Kerala by land route and/or from Palestine! Let us not loose sight of eminent possibilities due to the present day political configurations.
    I have read your post on the Cohen connection and there was a mention in an earlier post that present day Cohens with whom DNA match has been established from Syrian Christian blood groups. And also Cohen is a German Jew. Most Europeans who claim Jewish connection presently would not have any relation with old Palestine largely because there has been adoption of Judaism by Europeans and just how many Jews are still left in Germany? I would like to view the findings with some skepticism. Not the blood grouping mind you but the interpretation. A more objective assessment will be required.
    The study of blood groups is per se good but I would doubt whether it will lead us to any conclusions at this point of time. More work is required to address the issues.
    The Pakalomattom priestly connection is again an issue which has not been addressed impartially. Their conversion to Christianity prior to the Portuguese intrusion require to be looked into. I have seen the grave markings. There are no crosses on them unless I missed seeing it due to poor grade photography.
    Regarding your comments on Paul’s epistles being having a European orientation one must keep an open mind as to whether Paul was even aware of Indians notably Indian Jews!
    B.George

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  17. B George:

    1. “Cohen” does not denote a German Jew. Cohen is a Semitic word for “priest”. It’s present in Akkadian, Syriac/Aramaic, Hebrew, etc. Among the Jews it denotes those Levites who descend patriarchally from Aaron.

    It is very significant that the CMH exists, showing that many Jews with priestly traditions are in fact linked genetically to a common ancestor, a genetic “Aaron”. Regardless of European, African, Oriental origin: it seems almost all Cohens are related in this manner.

    Your viewpoint “Cohen is a German Jew” is highly ignorant.

    2. Claiming impurity in European Jews versus other Jews is, to be blunt, as stupid as Nasranis claiming that Christianity started in India before Greece or Rome.

    3. Yes Ethiopians *may* have come to India, but show me the evidence. I believe the current thinking is that Kerala Black Jews were Yemeni.

    4. RE: Pakallomattom. I personally have no interest in defending or bolstering that family. In fact I believe one can trace most of the schism in the nasranis to that family. But facts are facts: they have the cmh, and they have a long tradition of being priests. They’re not the only priestly family, but they are certainly one major one. When I go to my ancestors graves in India there are no crosses. That proves nothing at all.

    5. Paul knew about Indians. An indian buddhist self-immolated himself in Rome or Athens and Paul may have even written about it.

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  18. John Mathew,
    There was an earlier post where a particular Cohen with whom the blood relationship was established has been mentioned as being a German Jew. You could find it in one of the earlier posts. It is not my opinion. In fact I have no opinion in the matter except a scientific interest that is that at this stage of development the conclusions are premature. I do not dispute your comment on the genealogy of Cohen.

    The black Jews about whom you mentioned in your post could as well be from Yemen.But look at the closeness of Yemen with the African continent. Yes there is no evidence yet but that is probably due to lack of studies in that direction.

    The point I was making about the graves was that the concerned persons who are interred there may have been Jewish and Rabbis at that. If they were Christian priests there would certainly be a cross somewhere which is a norm for all Christians and certainly Christian priests. This is an opinion that has evolved naturally after I saw the photographic prints. B.George

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  19. B. George:

    1. Fundamental Logic needs to be taught to you:
    a. “Some Cohens are Jews from Germany”
    b. (a) does not mean that “All Cohens are Jews from Germany”.

    That Cohens from India, Germany, Eastern Europe, Africa, Iraq, etc., share a common marker, does not mean all Cohens are from Germany. That is ridiculous. Think about it. In 1000 years, you may have direct male line descendants who live in India, Germany, Africa, and Mars. Now, say someone does genetic tests of these males, and finds they all share a common tribe name “B George Tribe” and of course a common patriarchal DNA marker. Does that mean that anyone can claim that the “B George Tribe” are all from Mars just because one of your male line descendants was found on Mars?

    No!

    George Mathew found that he and a German Jew, Katz, have a common DNA marker. This means that both of them had a common male ancestor, anywhere from 1 to 4 thousand years ago. That male ancestor may not have been German. In fact, that male ancestor was probably from Palestine. Maybe he was Aaron, or maybe some other male child of Aaron.

    2. Regarding Yemeni origin. Unlike some of the fantasy writers here on NSC, when I say something it is usually based on some fact for which I have evidence. Not to sound pompous nor arrogant, but this is a fact! The evidence for this Yemeni origin is a study done by a Jewish researcher and published in a scholarly journal comparing the musical traditions of Yemeni Jews and Black Jews.

    So yes, there is some evidence. Go and do a google search; that’s how I found it.

    3. The Pakallomattom archdeacons weren’t Jews. Just because you lack facts or knowledge about our history doesn’t mean everyone is similarly in the dark. Specifically, the period from the 15th-17th centuries is very clear. We know what the Pakallomattom Malpans were writing, because we have their manuscripts. They were writing East Syriac poetry, copying liturgical works, etc. We have the actual manuscripts. So they weren’t Jews from the 1400s on.

    Also, they were Archdeacons. The position of Archdeacon is not a Jewish position; the Jews don’t have our ridiculous array of ranks of clerics. The Christians do — Archdeacon was a position in the East Syriac Church.

    Sorry to be harsh, but these are elementary facts which anyone could grasp if they did the tiny amount of effort required to read and learn these things.

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  20. I just want to make a comment after going through umpteen articles at NSC. Why are most of us so religion obsessed? In the end would it really make any difference? Does any of the different Syrian Christian denominations make any difference when we finally meet our Maker? It would all depend on how we lived our lives, won’t it?

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  21. Mr Alexander an expert,told that cohen means prestly class or more like singers. since lot of isrealites become muslims or migrated somewhere these names came to become changes to that paticular languages. We have ancient kozhikodan muslims, has the name koya or koyan actually denote the same cohen. so they might do some genetic testing to prove this. Ex Mamu Koya film actor. this is how the muslims got cohen as koya ,koyan. So mr alexander said In hindi these cohen resembles to kahana. So these came to them as lastnames from these ancient cohen group who were singers or sort of priestly class or special group of isrealites.

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  22. John Mathew,
    Thanks for the enlightening and sarcastic comments on my post. Be assured that I am not seriously concerned if you use harsh words and am never offended being a scientist for well over 50 years. I am a geologist by profession and am quite accustomed to being called wrong or ignorant.
    I will certainly check with Google.
    Regarding the Pakalomattom family my remarks were specifically to periods earlier than the Portuguese intrusion(1498) and does not in any way deny or or confirm their ecclesiastical status during that period that is prior to 1400 you have mentioned. As you say there are no records.
    B. George

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  23. I have to agree to Mr. B George’s observation of Mr John Mathew’s sarcasm. I have often seen that Mr Mathew’s choice of words is quite unfortunate.
    You might be quite knowledgeable, Mr Mathew. And I do appreciate your grasp of the intricacies that govern the Nasranis. But most more than often, your choice of words is obnoxious and condescending.
    Not everyone knows everything. Many of us are novices, I am sure, and are here to learn from seniors. What can we learn from rude people? Any one who seeks knowledge is a beggar. And what kind of man treats a genuine beggar with disrespect?
    If Mr B. George has been polite in return, it is a testimony to his character.

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    • Well said, Mr. Mathew T. George. It reminds me of a quote, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care”.

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  24. Indeed. we are all beggars in our quest for knowledge. But the problem is there are lepers and snake charmers in this multitude. ( not referring to B. George here, but Joseph parecattil who has just brought up some fresh veal on to this board. Utter nonsese.)

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  25. Mathew T.George
    Thanks for the remarks in your post 46431. I am truly intrigued by the trend of discussions now.l I confess that I am a late comer to this blog and may have missed some earlier discussions. However the discussions are focused on Nazranis of Kerala there is no doubt. I have gathered from the present blog and from elsewhere that presently there are 3 major trains of thought about our origins.
    1. We are descendants of St Thomas’ activities in Kerala in the first century CE when Christianity was in its earliest stages of development elsewhere. 2. We are descendants of the same saint’s activities but the difference is that whereas in 1. the original population who accepted Thomas’ mission were local Brahmans and in 2. the emphasis is on Jewish settlers and traders who were in Kerala since well before Jesus himself. 3. The community developed from migrants from west Asia ie places like Syria Palestine Persia etc. Some evidence exist supporting all theories.and the fact may be that in fact all the ideas may hold some truth but we do not yet know enough about Nazranis to confidently say that yes this theory is correct and some other theory is not. Unfortunately the area where Thomas is supposed to have landed is currently under river deposits from Periyar river and these cover could be a few hundreds of meters in thickness. As technology of excavation becomes more sophisticated we may get some true evidence of what happened nearly 2000 years back.
    The research in to the mitochondrial DNA is an important strand in this area but currently we are far from making any solid conclusions. From the Nazrani side there is simply not enough samples that have been analysed to draw conclusions. If we were to take a conservative estimate of the populations believing to be descendants of Thomas mission we get I think the following picture. Currently there may be about 5 million individuals who could legitimately claim to be Nazranis. A much larger number have surely perished in 2000 years. To isolate the gene pools of the living alone will be a task beyond comprehension. The Jews I understand have done a good bit of work in studying the available gene pools including those who are no more.
    My doubt about the correlation between a Jew in Germany or elsewhere with a few Nazranis may be indicative but not conclusive. This is a purely scientific conjecture. I could be wrong and open to being corrected. I had raised another question and that is why there is no cross on the graves of the Archdeacons that have been prominently displayed in this series of discussions. A Christian grave normally has a cross on it and these graves do not have them. I have not ruled out the possibility that there may have been a cross and I did not see it due to poor photography or some other reason.
    For getting at the truth one has to have patience and an open mind.
    B.George

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  26. Mathew T. George:

    B George made an incorrect statement about Cohens. I correct him, and he responded again with an error, which I corrected. Moreover, the issue at hand was something that B George could have easily have avoided if he had only done the minimal effort required to read about Cohens and what they are. Rather he chose to forgo due diligence, and start typing some drivel. I responded with fact. And you find me at fault?

    Are you, and others who have issues with my tone and the way I write (as opposed to *what* I write), so emotional, so juvenile, and in possession of so defective and immature an intellect, that you are that concerned with the way I write as opposed to what I write? Who cares if I’m rude; show me where I’ve written deception. Show me where I’ve written something without due diligence.

    I will concede that B George likely is a man of better character than myself. I’m not writing to promote my own virtue; I could care less about virtue.

    What concerns me most is that facts are presented and not pseudo-mystical theories, or theories that have no basis in reality.

    I have grown up hearing the over-ripe garbage that normally is presented as Nasrani history. Such junk is presented by very nice, pious, well-mannered individuals. However, not one of those attributes were in any way useful in ensuring that truth was presented. In fact, I’ve seen many well-meaning, nice, pious priests and clerics, spout endlessly about our heritage, stating as fact that the Patriarch of Antioch looked after the Malabar Church since time immemorial. Or stating that a Brahmin from such and such a family was converted by Thomas on such a such a date (they actually give a date!), and that all our ancestors come from those Brahmins. Really? Such junk is an affront to our ancestors who may have been Dravidian Buddhists and/or Jains and/or Animists, or Persians, or Arameans, or Jews. Our forefathers who produced the Pahlavi Crosses were not Brahmins! They spoke Pahlavi! Our forefathers whom Comas observed and reported on were described as Persians.

    And these facts are not some occult knowledge; they are hidden in plain sight, only to be ignored by all of those polite, pious and virtuous deceivers.

    The funny thing is, I actually believe that some of the more fascinating hypotheses put forth on NSC (e.g., Jewish ancestry) are likely correct. The difference between me and some others, is that I would like to understand the factual basis behind this. I’m not content in inventing some feel-good theory, and leaving it at that.

    And I see people who invent feel-good, substanceless theories to be extremely dangerous individuals, as they produce memes that propagate and deceive others.

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  27. It’s nice that B. George is learning about things he never knew previously. In case the theories that are born from his current state of learning cause others to be misled, I write:

    Any individual can go to countless “old” Nasrani graves in Kerala and see that it is not a fact that ” A Christian grave normally has a cross on it…” (B. George).

    One can not look at the present situation in which graves are highly decorated, ornate, made of precious materials, etc., and have elaborate inscriptions, and say that the graves of our ancestors that were Christian must have necessarily had those same properties. One doesn’t need to look at the archdeacons for this— one can look at many normal Nasrani graves.

    Now, as to the religion of the *Archdeacons* prior to the Portuguese, one has to be able to grasp the following *facts*:
    1. We are talking about the Archdeacons, which is an office of the Christian CHurch, There is no “archdeacon” in Judaism.
    2. The article (http://nasrani.net/2007/06/14/the-tomb-of-archdeacons-kuravilangadu/) talks about the earliest historical mention of the Archdeacons by Patr. Timothy, an East Syriac Christian. So from this how does one even begin to substantiate a fantasy that the Archdeacons of the Nasranis were practicing Jews from the 8th to the 16th century?

    Pakallomattom may have the CMH, that means it is possible their male line ancestors at some point in history were Cohenim; perhaps the reason for their high office in Malabar was due to their ancestral “profession”. So when they converted to Christianity, they became one of the priestly families.

    It would be interesting to look at other such priestly families, Kaliankal, Konat, etc., and see whether a similar genetic marker can be found.

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  28. John,

    Unfortunately the genetic marker theory itself may be bunk.. it is reported that most middle easterners and those cultures which translated from them have the “Cohanim” marker. Even a small number among non-Jewish cultures, which are now incorrectly being assigned to so-called “lost tribes” – which is another faulty theory being promoted these days.

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  29. Dear Michael,

    A true Isralite does not care for DNA. What is most important is the heart. One can be a Cohen 10 times over and still never be an Israelite at heart.

    One can be Irish/Celtish in DNA 10 times over, yet be an Isralite 10 times over. I am repeatedly convinced of this day by day. I feel the passionate love to Israel from a Scotsman, yet find indifference from a Jew towards Israel on the same day.

    If Creation Science (ie. Literal interpretation of Genesis 1 to 11) is correct, which I believe it to be so, then this whole DNA matter all over the world is fundamentally flawed. My DNA confirms Cohen heritage and I strongly believe that much of the assumptions in this DNA science is garbage.

    I believe in my Jewish heritage, not from DNA studies, but from evidences all over. John Mathew limits his belief to Passover and DNA. To me our Syriac heritage, the forbidden day (Shabbath) at the Synod of Diamper, Pantanius’s observation of the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew, Cosmas’s observation of animal slaughter by Nazereans by blood letting than by bludgenoning, our dozens of similarities with the Black Jews, our Biblical names, missing millions of Black Jews etc.. etc.. the list goes on an on.. to those who have been called back to their Israelite heritage.

    When the above were discussed in this forum some years ago, there was never the support of Malayala Manorama or a Dr. Mini Kariappa.

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  30. Dear Miachael,

    I can explain the presence of Jewish DNAs in Arabs and other nations. Millions of Jews/Israelites were taken as slaves/forced to convert during the last 2500 years or so and their DNAs had entered other nations. A DNA scientist does not touch upon slavery or forced convertions. He avoids this topic alltogether for he does not have a mandate or interest on this matter.

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  31. Could anyone please reply why some Kerala Christians have the name, “Alexander (Chandy)”? As far as I know, no saint has that name. Only, one Pope in the 3rd or 4th century had that name and he was not a popular Pope. As far as I know, Alexander, the Great or his army did not come to Kerala. The original name, Alexander is a title and not a name and so there was no Alexander before, Alexander, the Great.
    Please post your opinion about this.

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  32. Christianity (Eastern, Western, or Oriental) has heavy Greco-Roman influence, as did Judaism in the early Christian era, hence Alexander and other Greco-Roman names (like George, Clement, Cyril, Mark, Luke, Rufus, etc.) were used by Christians. As well as Muslims (Iskdander).

    Pagan kings like Alexander the Great, Cyrus, etc., by virtue of the good or heroic virtues they were purported to espouse are also adopted by people due to those reasons.

    There were also martyrs and saints with the name of Alexander from the first few centuries.

    There were plenty of Alexanders before and after Alexander the Great. The name is not a title, it’s a proper name meaning “defender of man” — by virtue of that definition itself, I can see why it’s a popular name for Christians and Muslims, whether in Kerala or elsewhere in the world.

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  33. Dear John Mathew,

    Your theory is valid to some extent and fits the common sense. It is human nature to name sons and daughters (and often pet dogs ) after historic personalities who are believed to have excelled in various dimensions of human life – ex. Graham Gadhi Johns – a white man

    But there is much more to it. the following passage explains it well, taken from jewishhistory.org
    http://www.jewishhistory.org/alexander-the-great/
    “His father, Philip of Macedon, was the first one to unite the disparate, war-like Greek tribes (albeit at the point of a sword). He then brazenly attacked Persia, the world empire of his day, and defeated them. At his height, he died and passed on the torch to his son, Alexander. Philip gave Alexander the philosopher Aristotle as a teacher, who imbued him with Greek/Hellenist values that he spread to the world, which he proceeded to conquer. When he came to Jerusalem (329 BCE according to most historians), instead of sacking the city – the Jews had sided with the Persians – he dismounted his horse and bowed to the High Priest, Simon the Just, whose face he said resembled the angel that appeared in his dreams before each victory.Although he left the city in peace, and the Jews showed their gratitude by naming all children born that year Alexander, this was the beginning of Greek/Hellenist influence in Judea.”

    Is it not telling us something about our forgotten/ignored Jewish heritage ?
    Since we have our on nasranised name chandy, it is obvious that this cannot be a simple case of imitating historic personalities. Read this with the Y DNA results at familytreedna.com. Nearly 30% of us have J2 which is middle eastern

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  34. Dear John Mathew/T Cherian,

    I think our men are exceptionally hairy. A lot of Monkey Carpeting.
    Its not just about the chest hair. (I mean the ‘T’) . Many of us have hair on the back and shoulders as well. Forget about the skin tone. I have some 70-80% coverage. So do have my brother. And nearly all of my Cousin brothers have the carpeting, atleast the T. I can see that Body hair of this intensity (Tier1) is observed among Jews, Persians and Hispanics (Arabs, Greeks and Italians would be tier 2 here). Our Nair / Brahmin brothers have it, but Tier 3) – I may be wrong. (Also I have noticed body hari is mostly absent/negligible among the so called lower castes – I am not boasting of anything here. (Also I do agree that ‘Tilakan’ is hairy, which is unusual among ezhava community)

    Also in addition to mammodissa and pesaha we share something common with the israelites – Appan & Amma (Abba & Amma – as used by the Lord, Abba and Ima in Hebrew)

    Shalom.

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  35. Hi Varghese:

    I’m sorry, but “Appan” and “Amma” (Abba and Emma), is shared with all Semites, Israelite or non. The pagan Arameans have the same words. So it does not prove anything, although it is interesting how the Dravidians words are similar to Semitic ones. Fr. Placid, I believe, had some interesting theory of how the Indus Valley civilization was somehow related to Mesopotamian ones, and that is how the similar vocabulary arose. There are more words like this — again it only shows some commonality with general Semites, not just the Hebrews.

    Mamoodeesa proves nothing either. If you include that, then there are thousands of words that the Nasranis have that come to it via its East Syraic heritage. This shows only connection with the Syriac Church, not the Hebrews.

    Even Pesaha, the word, is something that could have come via the Syriac Church. What is interesting about Pesaha is the non-Christian family rites that the Nasranis have pertaining to it, that recall Hebrew traditions. The Pesaha of the Nasranis is not the Pesaha of the Syriac Church.

    So I think the only bonafide hints of Hebrew relationship are:
    1. our Pesaha family rites
    2. the CMH which *may* indicate that the Priestly class of the Jews contributed some part of our ancestry
    3. the family traditions of some northern Nasranis that recall some Jewish ancestry (ref: Jackson John’s posts)
    4. the Copper Cheppads which indicate that the Jews and the Nasranis had some alliance in the past

    As for hairiness … interesting. But it doesn’t prove much that needs proving. The Nasranis already are known to have contribution from the Persians and Jews, and likely the Arabs, Greeks and Romans as well

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  36. Varghese:

    RE: Alexander.

    1. Jews honor Alexander (for various reasons) and name their children Alexander
    2. Muslims (ditto)
    3. Christians (ditto)
    4. Atheists (ditto)

    Does that mean (1) = (2) = (3) = (4)? Of course not. That Jews name their children Alex, and Nasranis do the same, does not prove anything at all.

    I don’t understand at all your logic about the name “Chandy”. Chandy *is* Alex *is* Iskander *is* Alehandros *is* Alexei. These are the same name, modified according to the pronunciation characteristics of the particular population.

    Unless you find out that Hebrews use “Chandy*, you’ve proven nothing.

    Finally, much hype is made of our “forgotten” Jewish past. The funny thing is, nothing is forgotten. The fact that all of us are talking about the Jewish ancestors who made up *ONE* part of our ancestry, means nothing has been forgotten. But what is strange is that people are amplifying this one single aspect of our ancestry, for whatever reason. Each of us has four grandparents. Logically speaking is their any reason to boast of any one of those grandparents over the other? Not really. We may do this due to favoritism, but in actual genetic fact, each grandparent contributes to us with equal likelihood.

    Yes, some of our grandparents were Jews. But some others were Persians, others were Arabs, Greeks and Romans. And the vast majority of our ancestors must have been bonafide Indians. A sense of proportion may help.

    (Note: You do know that Varghese bar Mani is an Aramaic name. That is, it is of pagan origin. If you want to amplify your Jewish heritage, you would say Varghese ben Mani. Of course, neither Varghese nor Mani are Jewish names, so the whole exercise seems a little odd.)

    (Note 2: You citing Y DNA results has to be qualified: Y DNA results only point to *ONE* of our many lines. That is, it is the line from Father to Son. So if you look 10 generations back, you would have had at most 1024 grandparents. Your Y DNA results points to only ONE of those 1024 grandparents. You would still have 1023 grandparents who could have been something entirely different. Again, a sense of proportion would help here.)

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  37. T Cherian

    And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross. Mark 15:21
    As the name was in the Bible, it may be the reason why we have such names

    Aji Matthew

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  38. RE: http://nasrani.net/2007/02/20/book-review-the-st-thomas-christian-encyclopaedia-chief-editor-profgeorge-menachery/?cid=47762

    Dear John Mathew,

    Again you are right (mostly, but not always). for example the arabs use mama/ommi (behbak ya omi, an arabic song on mother uses both) and baba.
    Now about Fr. Placid’s observation – Very much true. But there is further to it. Around the world in most of the cultures (with exceptions of the Japanese who use ‘chichi’ and the Georgians who simply revert the terms) amma or a similar sounding word (read ‘mm’) is used to address mother where as ba or pa is commonly found for ‘father’. ( This is just an observation/fact but i cant make a conclusion on this as i see two possibilities here – extrapolation would lead me to the tower of babel?? or it could be a much shorter journey to the laber room where mmmmaaa…. is what most of us started with)

    Now,in tamil they use appa and amma (thanthai and thai) but in kerala it is achan and amma (now many use daddy and mommy). Now the question is who we are? definitely not Tamils, but we are Malayalis. If so then why arent we using Achan and Amma even though we share a hindu heritage but using something rather similar to the Tamilians ? I would say this is indicative of the Aramaic/Israelite (see that Jewish community co-existed with the nasranis for centuries in Kerala) influence that we had rather than looking across the boarder to Tamil Nadu. Thats a very very long way, across the oceans when compared with crossing the Palakkad border. After all one’s culture is more likely to be defined by religion and faith than his land of living (only if your are observant – look at the muslims in kerla, Indonesia adn Yemen arent they all the same in culture – even their kailys, belt and vests). Arent they so ?
    When you say Arameans do share the same words, So did the Aramaic speaking Israelite among whom where the Christ and his disciples. Now about the

    Also please note that I am not trying to or does want to prove any ‘hebraic descendency or lineage’ of Nasranis. But I am here in search of any missing information on our past submerged under the heavily latinized present which I find too murky.

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  39. To see how a common vocabulary arose we dont need to find links b/w ancient indus valley civilizations and Mesopotamia. It is mostly through trade activities. See that words like alamara and baazar are widely used in many parts of the world (almirah and baazar in arabic, malayalam, malay javanese.. the list goes on . Also you will find many non-dravidian non-semite words that mallus share with Bengalis – egs. Bindi for Venda (okra/ladies finger). So it not appear right to declare everything to be on the influence of syriac church either. Some of these were introduced by Arabic/persian traders.

    So we dont need to consider everything, but only the relevant ones – ones which relates to the faith and family traditions. Assyrians use the word Mamuduta for mamodisa. So You are right here about Mamodisa. It could have been brought to us by the Syriac Church. Appan and Amma could be just Aramic influence only or hebrew-aramaic, cant make a conclusion, but not from tamils.
    So the Pesaha stands out here.

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  40. Dear Varghese:

    I’m not sure I follow your reasoning about Tamil. Malayalam, as I understand, is only a late evolution from Tamil. So I believe that our furthest ancestors were Tamil speakers, not Malayalam ones. So the presence of “Appan” and “Amma” in Malayalam is surely due to the origin of our language from Tamil/proto-Dravidian. I don’t think it is due to Syriac/Hebrew influence, and that can’t be demonstrated either.

    Regarding the Syriac “-tha” ending where in Malayalam is “-sa” for baptism, that is due to the well known tendency in Malayalamized Syriac to use “s” instead of the Syriac “teth”.

    Finally, there is something interesting that no one has considered, but that I once brought up on NSC: “Jewish Malayalam”.

    Has anyone even bothered to consider whether there is any link between the Malayalam that Nasranis speak and that of the Kerala Black Jews?

    The Black Jews are the oldest Jews of Kerala, and their language bears many marks of Tamil. Their words for God and other religious concepts are actually Dravidian words, that translate the Hebrew original. They don’t have any Sanskritization at all. And, last I checked, their words for God and other theological concepts are not at all used by the Nasranis.

    You can google up “Jewish Malayalam” and find the article, it’s a great read. I also posted the link here on NSC a long time ago asking for opinions.

    So, though I believe there is a connection between Jews and Nasranis, I also don’t think it’s as strong as what some people are proposing. That the Nasranis were ardent Jews before conversion to Malayalam. Not at all. Some of our ancestors may have been Jews, and *ONE* of their traditions passed on to us (though, not the most important one: circumcision!), but generally speaking the Nasranis were pretty much Syriac Christians. That’s right from the time of Cosmas up to the first observations of us by the Europeans. The lack of any Jewish Malayalam vocabularly in Malayalam — as well as the lack of circumcision — is pretty damning evidence against the kind of wholesale Jewishness/Israeliteness that some here propose.

    Personally, I’m sorry to say this, because after my detailed study of the Old Testament, I’m very much in favor of the proto-Israelite religion over the Greco-Roman-Syriac paganized Judaism that is modern “orthodox” Christianity. But facts are facts…

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  41. RE: Jewish Malayalam

    Read this section and confirm whether the archaisms of Judeo-Malayalam are found in Nasrani Malayalam:

    “One of the most notable features of Jewish Malayalam is the presence of fossilized elements from the pre-Malayalam layer. These archaisms exist at several levels, including lexicon, morphology, phonology, and semantics. A semantic example can be found in one of the wedding songs: the bride is described as covering her head with three types of flowers that have NaRRam. The word NaRRam exists in contemporary Tamil, Malayalam, and other local languages with the meaning ‘bad smell’. However, in this case the word is used with its old Tamil sense: ‘good smell’. This is just one example of the many elements of Jewish Malayalam that may seem like contemporary Tamil borrowings but are actually archaic remnants from before Malayalam split off from Tamil.

    Another significant feature is the abundance of archaic Dravidian derivatives to denote Jewish concepts. The best examples are names for God, many of which are loan translations from Hebrew. Jews, Muslims, and Christians share the most popular form Thampuran ‘Lord’. Jews and Muslims share Padachavan ‘creator’. But Mulamudayon ‘the one at the beginning’, Oruvanayavan ‘the only one’, Sadakan ‘the doer’, Adimulamvayavan ‘the one who is the root cause’, and Adiperiyon ‘the great beginner’ are words for God used only by Jews. The typical Jewish concept of redemption is expressed by a special word coined from a Dravidian root “mil,” according to well-accepted morphological rules: Milcha ‘redemption’ and Mirchakaran ‘redeemer’ are frequently found in JMFS but are non-existent in general Malayalam. JMFS are full of variants of these two Malayalam words, sometimes altered beyond recognition.

    Because of the frequency of archaisms, an ordinary Malayalam speaker would be bewildered by the opaqueness of JMFS. Even the women who still sing these songs today may not understand some of the words they use. But the linguistic archaisms – as well as biblical allusions – contribute to the speakers’ sense of ethno-religious distinctiveness.

    Hebrew Borrowings

    Like Jewish languages around the world, Jewish Malayalam includes a number of Hebrew words and idioms, such as tora (‘Torah’), shalom (‘peace’), shir (‘song’), and aliya (‘ascension’) . In a few instances Hebrew words appear as part of Malayalam compounds, such as alam padacavanthe ‘world-created-he’ and shalom ayi ‘died’ (lit. ‘entered the state of peace’).”

    ref: http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-malayalam.html

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  42. RE: Alexander.

    Dear John,

    I have the following reply here. sorry for any sarcastic comments that I have.
    And I believe I am on this forum for a cause which I believe is just. I had been active only from the past week, but i had been an observant for more than a month now (before Dr.Mini’s Paper came out).
    I had been particuarly intereseted in this subject as I felt bad when I watched the ‘History of Christianity’ by BBC where in Dr. Dermaid MacCalloch shamelessly states that Christianity in africa required many adaptations (with a black Virgin and child photo etc..) which i believe is extremely hypocritical as Jesus would have looked like a middle easterner, but not with blue eyes and blond hair. And I am sadden by the ignorance our Nasranis showing in copying the Blue-Blond Christ. So I am not a newcomer here.
    I am trying to gather information and I welcome criticism. But i also criticise.

    >> 1. Jews honor Alexander (for various reasons) and name their children Alexander
    2. Muslims (ditto)
    3. Christians (ditto)
    4. Atheists (ditto)

    Does that mean (1) = (2) = (3) = (4)? Of course not. That Jews name their children Alex, and Nasranis do the same, does not prove anything at all.
    I don’t understand at all your logic about the name “Chandy”. Chandy *is* Alex *is* Iskander *is* Alehandros *is* Alexei.

    Alas..
    eq1 – 1 * 0 = 0
    eq2 – 2 * 0 = 0
    so from eq1 & eq2 1=2 . good use of logic

    I will give you even better example
    (1)chinese eat banana.
    (2)jews eat banana
    (3)Mallus eat banana… so jews = mallus = chinese.. is that what i meant here ? I didnt say that.
    I said it says something about our forgotten jewish heritage. And I have reasons to say that. Tell me how many Iskanders have you seen in kerala? In my case frankly none – I never ever knew even such a word existed untill Russia Test fired some missiles.. (though recently I have heard about names like Iskander Bhat – a upwalah from familytreedna.com) So ONLY we use it. Now why I says jewish heritage, but not jewish lineage (even though the YDNA samples are indicative of significant Semite, with proven *CMH*s among the founding fathers of the community). Interestingly the DNA tests as you know are not leading anywhere. J1 CMH is argued to be the only CMH as it has a higher concentration among the Cohen and through out the areas where Abrahams sons from Keturah were sent out. If J1 is abraham, then J2 is not simple as that. But the fact that J1 is fully abscent from Bene Israel (who are majority J2 CMH) tells a different story. Also J2 is more widely seen among many balkan communities, often in much higher concentration which means J2 may not be the Abraham, which leaves the entire Pakalomattom theory flawed. So instead of drawing direct conclusions as you said ‘Jewish ancestors who made up *ONE* part of our ancestry’, we have to find links which would first prove our Jewish Heritage if we have any, then only the ‘fractional lineage’ claims can be asserted.

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  43. >>> These are the same name, modified according to the pronunciation characteristics of the particular population.
    Not exactly. I agree about ‘the pronounciation charracterisitics of the particular population’ – I believe you mena how ‘ch’ is pronouced as k and that is how ‘John, Mark, Jesus etc.. came’.
    But it also depends up on the phonetics that the language has – for example most chinese are unable to pronounce r as they dont have a sound like that so they call robin ‘lobin’. But the differences also appear on gradual shortening nick-naming – see how names kurian cherian etc arrived.

    Unless you find out that Hebrews use “Chandy*, you’ve proven nothing.
    >>> Let me give you an analogy. I can see that you are in Canada. Say in the next 100years your great great grandson ‘Jon Matthew’, (see I am a bit sarcastic here as you tends to be sarcastic on me calling myself ‘varghese bar mani’ but you choses to ignore your name is purely western, imbibing Greek/Latin culture) wants to find the missing links about his heritage and community. But Suppose our culture hasnt progressed that well and that we are yet to use names like ‘Jon’ and Matthew and that we have gone back to the 20th century (see that a lot of people are now naming thier childern eapen ousepp thomman chandy lukose esthappan etc..) he would be surprised to see that the Original Nasranis arent using any such names.. Would that mean he wont be able to trace his heritage to the extent he would liked to have. Again I am not asserting anythign as a proof of anything else. I am just pointing some possibilites that makes sense.

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  44. >>>Finally, much hype is made of our “forgotten” Jewish past. The funny thing is, nothing is forgotten. The fact that all of us are talking about the Jewish ancestors who made up *ONE* part of our ancestry, means nothing has been forgotten. But what is strange is that people are amplifying this one single aspect of our ancestry, for whatever reason. Each of us has four grandparents. Logically speaking is their any reason to boast of any one of those grandparents over the other? Not really. We may do this due to favoritism, but in actual genetic fact, each grandparent contribute
    Not really. We may do this due to favoritism, but in actual genetic fact, each grandparent contributes to us with equal likelihood.
    Again I would have to disagree here. First of all I didnt use the term ‘Jewish Past’ but ‘Jewish heritage’ which are not necessarily the same. Nor did I made any claim about Jewish ancestors, but I said ‘read this together with the YDNA results — just trying to be closer to some level of conlcusion on those results which actually doenst assert anything but having 25% Semitic contribution. The simple logic that i use is – ‘If it looks like ….. and kwaks like a duck, Its a duck’. Thats it. Simple. We just like most others in kerala looks typically indian, and the available MtDNA shows almost 100% south asian (I would say Dravidian), but YDNA shows 33% (20/59) South Asian, 25%(14/59)Semite and 42% Aryan (16/59 r1a1a – persian/aryan, 8/59 R2 – Northern/balkan).

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  45. Again why would some one make a claim like that? “Why would everyone wants to be a jew ? After all Jews are among the most percecuted, most oppressed community” – A comment by a Jew in response to the article my_pakistan pakistans jewish roots on jewish journal. links are not working. forum may have restrictions on this
    We are generally having an affinity to Jews on religious backgrouds and, due to their achievements and bravery. So why should I be ashamed to unearth any possible links that I may have ?.
    Also its you who makes such a claim ‘Jewish ascestors who made up *ONE* part’. I said the Y DNA suggests Middle Eastern (semetic) contribution to the extent of 30%. Never did I mention Jewish or even Abraham. Since I havent made such a claim there is nor any sort of amplification that arise here. So I am trying to better the authenticity of the claims made by you and others here.

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  46. Now I will explain the ‘forgotten or not’ and will come to the contribution from Grand parents.
    There are things forgotten, to the very basics. We dont observe the Shabbath anymore, nor do we (catholics) have the 10commandments as what they are. Look at any of churches and you will be able to find that all of the idols/statue were introduced after the Portuguese – I could be wrong here. Again If you ever asked our elderly – ‘who among the sons of men is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?’ the answere would mostly be ‘Youseppithavu – St.Joseph’. What a pitty. (you may comment it as ignorrance) Christ himself makes it clear – ‘There is none among the sons of men who is greater than John’. But the centuries of latinization and the introduction of the concept of ‘holy family’, a theme popularized by the blessed Chavara Kuriakose Achan has changed even the basic concepts in our mind (this has however strenghthened the concept of sanctity of family life among us). We are here not to fabricate history like the germans did (Now almost entire european/white populations believe they are ARYANS somethign that they havent even heard of for many many millennia – reason is simple, the germans had virtually no history at all) but to stitch together the avaialble pieces of the puzzle to get a good picture of our past. So I am not trying to hijack anyone else’s ancestor.

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  47. >>>Yes, some of our grandparents were Jews. But some others were Persians, others were Arabs, Greeks and Romans. And the vast majority of our ancestors must have been bonafide Indians. A sense of proportion may help.

    Now you seems to be making really unfounded stories here. Show me the Greek/Roman DNA that you claims in the samples we have. Are you not trying to claim that your community being partly the descendants of Romans/Greeks, some one who used to be higher than the jews? I believe I have the sense of proportion.

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  48. >> (Note: You do know that Varghese bar Mani is an Aramaic name. That is, it is of pagan origin. If you want to amplify your Jewish heritage, you would say Varghese ben Mani. Of course, neither Varghese nor Mani are Jewish names, so the whole exercise seems a little odd.)

    Now about Varghese bar Mani – Yes I do. I knows what is aramaic and what is hebrew. I have used it with concious. Did I ever say that I am jewish/hebrew? I believe I didnt. If you have understood other wise I would advise you to rewire up. I used ‘Varghese bar Mani’ because thats what I prefer to use here in this forum whose primary objectives are properly writen. And when I say something it can be taken at the literal meaning – No need of any sophisticated scanners to read through the walls. Its all written in simple English and no decephering and decoding are required. So Varghese bar Mani is ‘Varghese bar Mani’ not ‘Varghese ben Mani’. Now I have definitive reasons to call myself varghese bar mani. So why do you call yourself John Mathew ? Is it not a western name. I am sure we nasranis had no names like John or mathew. So are you claiming Portuguese/English heritage ?
    And about amplifying – a little bit of amplification is required to make things clear which is what I believe this forum stands for. But by amplify, you seems to have meant op-amplify (making the terms clear) which is boasting. Sorry I am not. I have alredy made it clear that I am in search of more information on our aramaic heritage, any possible links between our definitive Aramaic past (read heritage) and any possible Hebrew heritage. And I have reasons to do that. Definitely I wouldnt like to see my children growing up thinking that they are just one of the converts that the English/Portuguese made. (A Hindu friend asked me this question about 8 years ago. Thats what SNDP is teaching them)

    >> (Note 2: You citing Y DNA results has to be qualified: Y DNA results only point to *ONE* of our many lines. That is, it is the line from Father to Son. So if you look 10 generations back, you would have had at most 1024 grandparents. Your Y DNA results points to only ONE of those 1024 grandparents. You would still have 1023 grandparents who could have been something entirely different. Again, a sense of proportion would help here.)
    I believe I am well aware of this. Now thats again about the admixture, not about the exact lineage. Also considering that the Nasranis are thought to have originated to be from a few families these 1024 might have shared among themselves a lot of the genes.

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  49. Dear John,

    I have gone though your Jewish Malayalam Post. Your theory seems to be very much convincing. But I am still puzzled why only we have it different . Why not the Hindu community use ‘appa’ instead acha ?

    Also now about grandparents, As I said its not exactly as you think. you can completely ignore two of your grandparents (depends on the gender) from each side. That is you can have the chromosomes from your father, which he inherited from his father, by not touching those he got from his mother (may not happen, but chances are there.).. it is 23 +23 .. that is why children sometimes look much different from each other and we often tend to have colourful families

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  50. Dear vargheese,
    but still we have nasrani traditions, we celebrate pessiah, some old oral informations says nasranis used to observe sabbath. if brahimns as a whole were in nasrani, how many of us still dare to get in to brahimns taravads or get closer to those community. means we are miles far away from them. or they are intellegent in slogams raga (music) indian arts, aryurvedas study plants and making medicines. does that mean that nasanis show up any of these habits. absoluty no. nasranis know to shout in church, so much interested in no veg dishes. living sort of in a european syle means they are far away from hindu tradional lifesyles. but lot of history says some taravads came to nasranis so we cannot reject the whole facts. i think the suryainis of orthodox people not happy to accept nasranis because the portughese came a subjudated the ancient christian community here which till then called nasranis. the nomeclature of syrian christians presumeably came in to use after the split with portughese,. same the nasranis donot want to accept suryanis yet none of these group doesnt want to accept brahimns. so these conflicts create to erase lot of our orginal history.
    meat eathing among syrian chrisitan is not happening from pulayas. if they would have adopted then they should bake a rat in fire and eat it. meat eathing habits came from early jewish/israelites and later middleastern immigrants.
    syrian christian made meat dishes like curries with spices, dry meat in sun and keep in kitchen store and fry the meat in rainny season . i think all these invented by nasranis.
    actually brahimns stuggling to become brahimns that they married different women of these heritage among nasrani community and mixed. so there are brahimn elements and semitic elements among nasranis.
    That could be a reason hindu women look mythological and christian women look sort of spanish woman.
    if only brahimns then why do they celebrate pessiah.

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  51. Varghese:

    1. Let’s get down to basic facts, and not perceived facts. You wrote: ” your name is purely western, imbibing Greek/Latin culture”. I’m trying to tone myself down a bit, but that is the most … insane… thing I’ve read today. John Mathew is not a “Western” name! What are you talking about?!

    The name is a Hebrew one. John is a Hebrew name, as is Mathew. It does not come from any other culture other than that of the Jews.

    But the form and pronounciation of the particular instance that I was named, is of course English, that comes via Greek/Latin pronunciation. But who cares? They didn’t change the meaning? There is no Greek meaning to “John” (Iohannes, or Ivanios), nor to Mathew. It is by no means a Greek or Latin name. It is Hebrew.

    I don’t speak Hebrew (well, not well enough, and not as my first language), and neither did my grandparents. When the British ruled India the state language was English, and hence my grandparents must have propagated the English form of the name. There is nothing less “Hebrew” about the name.

    An Aramean would be named Yohannan Mattai. That doesn’t mean he’s bears a pagan Aramean name; his language is Syriac and so he uses the Syriac form of the Hebrew original. There is nothing more authentic about Yohannan Mattai versus John Mathew. They are cultural versions of the same underlying original name. A modern Jew speaking the modern dialect of Hebrew would similarly have only a variant of the original. The original name would be in the archaic dialect (dead) of Hebrew. But what’s the difference essentially? All mean the same thing: God is gracious.

    2. Ditto for Varghese Mani. Varghese is Greek (the Malayalam form of the Syriac form, Gewargis, of the Greek original, Giorgios). The name, in it’s meaning is from pagan Greek culture.

    Mani is, if it is Emanuel, Hebrew (or, if it’s Mani, the Persian philosopher, it’s Aramaic). The Malayalam form of the Hebrew original. Hence the name: Varghese bar Mani is a pagan Aramaic form of a pagan Greek name and a Hebrew name. Nothing wrong with that. I was merely stating that if your desire was to amplify your Hebrew heritage, you ought to choose better. Only 1/3 of the form is Hebrew.

    3. Hence, my statement on Alex. Alex = Chandy = Iskander = Alexei, etc. The names are all identical, from the Greek: Alexandros. Chandy is merely a Malayalam form of the name, but the original is of course Greek. Chandy has no other meaning in Malayalam, other than being a Malayalamized form of Alexander.

    4. I have no bias towards any culture, Greek/Roman/Syriac or Hebrew. Actually, my personal bias is towards the Indians and the Chinese for they have managed to persist for millennia, whereas the former have all died, and later been resurrected by others. In terms of religion, I have an affinity for the Hebrew religion as espoused by the Prophets. I’m not a big fan of modern “orthodox” Christianity, since it is too infected by the teachings of mere men who came after Christ.

    So, in some of your statements you have indicated that I was trying to prefer the Greco-Roman over the Hebrew, when I cited the possibility of Greco-Roman ancestors.

    No such thing. I merely look at history and it shows that the Chinese, the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the Arabs, the Jews, the Assyrians are all known to have lived in Malabar at various times. This is a fact. I think they are all pretty inferior to the Indian in terms of civilization since all, except the Chinese, have failed as continuing living civilizations (I’m not talking about racial inferiority, but of the inferiority of the civilization which caused them to not persist).

    5. Okay these are just my responses to what you’ve written. Ultimately, I think we’re probably more congruent than our little debate would suggest. I just think I’m being a little more conservative.

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  52. Varghese Mani
    Your post is interesting. No culture in the world is pure. Everything got mixed through the course of time. It is foolishness to boast of them. We, one who believes can boast only in the ancestry of Jesus Christ alone. All other ground is sinking sand…sinking sand..
    Aji Matthew

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  53. Varghese Mani,

    Appan and Achan are not exact synonyms. The original meanings of these 2 words are different. Appan is ‘Father’. Whereas, Achan is a ‘respectable man’ or ‘master’ and probably is derived from the word ‘Aryan’.

    Among Nair Hindus of Cochin:
    Among Nairs, both Appan and Achan were used and their original meanings I described above become clearer when we dig into their usage in the past.
    Nair women had a Thalikettu Kalyanam (thali-marriage). It was a ceremonial marriage of a Nair girl with a man and this thali-husband may or may not have sexual relations with his thali-wife. But he remains the formal husband and is the formal father of all the children born of that woman. This formal father for ritual purposes was known as Appan.
    All the lovers (sambandakkar) of the Nair mother were referred to as Achan by her children. It didn’t matter if the man in question was their biological father or some casual visitor.
    When any of the Achans die; the woman and her children were not obliged to do any death-rituals. But when the Appan died; his thali-wife and all her children were obliged to carry out rituals.

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  54. Dear John,

    I was simply pointing to the fact that your name is a western form of a Hebrew name. Thats all. And your explanations are in terms with what I said. There is no question about the fact that John and Mathew were from the Hebrew names Yohannan & Mattiyahu, but Latin/Greek versions, which you agrees. A Traditional nasrani name would have been Yohannan Mathai (Aramean would be Yohannan Mattai). So my argument still holds ground and I dont think it was that offending. (Also I did mention that it was an ‘eye for an eye’ ) Not surprising that it has a wonderful meaning, in fact all these names had some kind of meaning, mostly associated with God himself (See that many names had an ‘El’). However this is not confined to the Hebrew/Greek names. Also, across the world almost all communities except nasranis name their children something meaningful, say something like ‘Jaguar Paw’ or ‘Kicking Bird’. But our community is still evolving and with our ingenuity we rampantly keeps on inventing names (very very revolutionary ones, see the sins, bins, wins and sons among us).

    Now about ‘Varghese Mani’, I always had the idea that Varghese is an Armenian(Anatolian) name as Ghevarghese Sahada was from Capadochia (Capadochia nagariyil annudicha swarnadeepam….) and I never bothered to check its origin. However it is good to learn that it is the Greek Georgios and have a meaning ‘farmer’. Thanks for that anyway. But I knew that Mani is Immanuel (Christ as per Christian beliefs, but Son of Hezekiah as per Judaism), not just any other Mani (the Parsi prophet/Persian philosopher). Now, I have already given the reasoning/logic behind me calling myself ‘Varghese bar Mani’ and ‘Believe in Boasting’ is not my slogan. Nor do I boast with out substance. And when I boast, nobody corrects me that easily. Now that I am aware of our Aramaic Past, and that I have a conservative view on faith matters, I feel it fully legitimate to use ‘Varghese bar Mani’. Because thats what our naming conventions indicates. But if you are familiar with the scriptures (read NT) where in Jesus Christ says to simon, ‘Blessed are you Shimeon bar Yona’, it is incidental that the usage of ‘Varghese bar Mani’ appeared a bit of shameless self-promotion and is hence prone to being criticised as boastful. Again given that we still follows the Aramaic naming conventions from the time of Christ, I feel comfortable with any such criticism as long as it wont leave me ashamed or getting deported. And I don’t have any problem with that.

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  55. Dear Vargheese,

    What a coincident. I have just initiated matters to have my name changed from ‘George Mathew’ to ‘Mathaiyahu Ben Geevergheese’. I was a little sorry that Mathaiyahu is Hebrew while Geevergheese is Aramaic. But now realized that is good, as I have taken on both of my heritages, Hebrew and Syriac.

    Personally, I believe that Geevergheese became George, not because of ‘language’ issues, but because of King George of Great Britain, the then most powerful man on earth – a socio-political issue. Mathai became Mathew because of local British social influence in India/Kerala.

    You see, it is good to support the winning team! When the British had to leave and the Hindus came in, our names became Ramesh, Ashok, Vivek etc… Check it out.. check on the number of Nazerene babies being named after popular film stars!

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  56. John, about your views on Judaism and orthodoxy, I too had similar views and I tried hard to be a Torah observant Christian, but only for ~2 weeks. During this short-lived encounter with mosaic customs, I tried to refrain myself from taking non-Kosher foods (I experienced the daily living to be costlier and difficult, especially with my lunch time meal which is usually Sushi which is unclean. And to me the decision as a whole was rather heart-breaking as I considered ‘Panny’ to be religion by itself with many ardent followers. ) and Observing the Hebraic Sabbath (I couldn’t though). You might be thinking that I got in to such a situation because I jumped on after prematurely concluding that we have a Jewish background. It is not so. It all started after I learned that god indeed has a true name (something which I couldn’t digest when I was approached by a Jehovah witness preacher back in 2009 whom I then ridiculed), which I am not eligible to use. But then I had some contradicting views and questions arose in my mind. I knew that the Christ wasn’t a prophet, but the fulfilment of prophecies and that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfil it and to affirm it. But he openly defies Sabbath and sits for food with the unclean, doesn’t bother his disciples not keeping the law and criticises the Pharisees. But again Christ didn’t establish any religion but was an observant Jew from A to Z. But I was familiar with the teachings of Paul where in he virtually nullifies the advantages of being circumcised. We all know that Paul, in person led the formation of Christianity, separate from the Judaism, being acceptable to the Gentiles (as he was the only apostle to the gentiles). To me he is the one whom Christ says as ‘one who comes after me’ and I find his teachings to be acceptable enough. Even though Paul and Peter had an argument about this, Peter gets corrected in a vision where he accepts (Lord instructs him to do so) the views of Chandichayan in the film ‘Oru Maravathoor kanavu’ (eee bhoomukathullathu sakalathum daivam manushyanu thinnanai srushtichathanu). So naturally I too accepted the teachings of ‘Chandichayan’.

    And now, I am very much comfortable with Christianity (but I don’t consider myself a Christian though), as I believe that the Christ has come to do away with the formal practices of Judaism. (See that these formal practices are far more prevalent in the false religion which I see as cluster of very funny and illogical exercises which don’t serve any purpose – not even contributing to better blood circulation.) And to me Christianity is not a religion, but a sect of Judaism / a school of thought which believes that the Messiah has come. But Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Pentacostalisms are all religions. Even though I used to identify myself as an eastern catholic with oriental faith, I always had my own views of religion and kept my own version of Christian faith. To me Gandhi would have been eligible for salvation (from what he appears to have been). Because ultimately its your ability to see god in every other creature around you and divinity in you yourself which matters when it comes to salvation, nothing less nothing more (faith alone wont get you anywhere). That is what the Christ is pushing for. If you read the prophecy about NT in OT (Jeremiah 31 – same as the prophecy on the re-establishment of Israel), there it says ‘I will write the law on to your hearts’ and thats what Christ has done. He goes far beyond the literal meanings of the law and says that the sin is actually committed with in the heart. (This is corroborative with the psalms – psalm 51 for example). Now, it all depends on what you consider the law – To me its the ten commandments only (rest are peripheral laws to prepare the nation to the arrival of Christ the saviour). So I would be much happier if I can be a Christian (I believe one day I will be). But if I belongs to Abraham (read Jacob/Israel) (I don’t think so as I don’t belong to Pakalomattom), then I would reconsider the Mosaic customs, to whom I believe it would be an added advantage, but not an obligation though. (I am not sure here as Peter & Paul belonged to Abraham).

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  57. Dear RPS,
    I think you are very little aware about that kerala nasranis never used to eat meat until the arrival of portuguees. The suriyani christians of kerala or the marathoma nasranis or simply nasranis of kerala were enjoyed a lots of rights which are similler to that of the upper caste hindus. The syrian christines of kerala were actually accepted as the upper caste by the hindus and they were the only caste who have the right to dress like brahmins, and most importantly they are the only community allowed to carry weapons always with them. Thats why the encient churches have the ayudhapura to keep the weapons of the almayar. The bible of the christines are accepted as the fifth veda (note that in hinduism there are only four vedas, but in kerala the christine bible that means the peshitta as the fifth veda) even though we dont have the complete bible here. Also the christines or the nasrani mappilas were the community who handles the job of the vaisya clan since there is no vaisya in kerala hindus. Even brahmins allowed them to come near or enter into the provinces of their mana. There is a ceremoney used to done in all the brahmin manas for making the things like oil pure. According to them if any servant touches any thing in the house they believed that it became asudham or not pure or its condaminated.
    And the things like oil are very precious because of the rareness in getting. In such cases they believed that if the if a christine touches it then it will become pure or sudham , ” Nani thottu asudhamayathu ouseph tottal sudhamakum”. This shows that nasranis were allowed to come near to even brahmins. and also the nasranis lived a life similler to brahmins . So if they used the meat or if they were not vegetarians then do you think that a caste like brahmins allowed them to come nearer. NO… Its actually after the arrival of the portuguees the nasranis of kerala started to eat meat because it was them who forced to change lots of customes followed by us and follow theirs. The portuguees peaople where non vegetarians so they told that christines should eat meat. Also they made several funny arguments like the kerala christines should go to church with out taking bath since we used to take bath before entering into church as hindus do. The hindus have a “ambalakulam before the temple to this purpose, simillerlly we ued to have a well or kinar before the church for taking bath..” You can see this in encient churches. As hindus we also used to keep the asthimadam near to our houses and used to put andubali (not in the same way as hindus, but conceptually same way) , because we used to keep the churches as a temple. Its very much identical to a temple at that time. Its the portuguees who told to keep a cemetry inside the church province and burry the deadbody there….If you cross checked like these there are a lot of customes which are told to change and which are forcefully changed.

    Actually the main reasons for the failure of the synode of diamper or udayamperoor sunnahadose is not due to the difference in the region or not because to accept the paranki methran but its due to that the portuguees questioned the rituals of malankara nasranis or marthoma nasranis. They wanted us to do not perform those rituals that we are doing for generations and to accept their rituals as a christine.

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  58. Now about your views on Civilizations, I don’t share a similar thought here as well. To me no human race is better than another (Admittedly the Jews exceptionally better others in all virtues of human life, but its all by grace which the Lord promises in the second commandment. ) though one might appear to be better than others at various stages of history – Egyptians (A True Black civilization) had their day (in fact the longest lasting civilization), so did the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, Indians, Chinese, Arabs, Mayans, Romans, Mongols, the Russians, Europeans, Japanese each of them had their day. But that doesn’t mean they are better than others, but just that they had better opportunities or necessities. In that sense I don’t consider any civilization to be better than others either.

    If a civilization has died out, there was an obvious reason for that – May be anther, a better one arose out of it, may be it fell to another intolerant alien civilization (Incas & Mayans), May be it was taken over by another by the sword or by the word (read faith here). Or it was struck by disease or natural calamity (indus valley). But what ever happend, a civilization is not dead unless it fails to transfer the accrued knowledge to the next even if it fails to make a lasting impression. So in that sense the Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek Civilizations are still living – the Roman Empire borrowed a lot from these, which eventually become the western civilization as seen today (American Civilization which is undoubtably the leader of this age is rampantly transforming the Chinese Civilization the next to lead being the cradle of capitalism, transferring its accrued knowledge.). So If you reverse the interpretations of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream by Daniel, you can see this.

    If your view is to be taken literally, there is no better civilization than Arab (Nomadic people living in tents and moving around with the live stock, it was all the same from the time of Abraham to Gadhaffi – sorry for bracketing Abraham with Gadhaffi) not only they retain their identity to even this day, they have a lasting impact on the whole of the world. Also a civilization is not necessarily a better one just because it hasn’t moved on. Unless it changes for better, It is not.

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  59. Our civilization (actually a collection of many) is good in many respects, but suffers from some architectural issues. We have the worst form of racism which even forms the fundamental building block of our civilization. This is nothing but our right to injustice and slavery. Any Christian should be ashamed of our superiority in racism, being the champions of it.

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  60. Now about the superiority that you observes in the Torah observance over the Orthodoxy, a lot of these actually came from men. Mark 10:5 reads ” It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this percept”. So the Christ testifies these to be from Men through Moses. (After all Moses was also a man, a Murderer before being called by the God). A lot of the teachings of Established churches are not true, which I agrees.

    Also it would be worth noting that in modern Israel they don’t observe the Levitate practices such as stoning or even any form of Capital Punishment (Same as many European countries) which in fact is based on the Human Rights that Christianity is based on.

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  61. Dear Aji,

    I agrees that, everything that is not built on Christ (headstone) is on sinking sand.
    But I have already stated that I did no boasting. To boast is sinful (Mark 7:23). If you read about the hardships of Paul for being a servant of the Christ, (2 Corinthians 11:18) he says ‘In flesh will I boast’. Also in titus 3:9, Paul instructs us to forget about genealogies in law for they are worthless. (i.e no one is superior in law due to his genealogy, not even knanaya)

    However it is not sinful to trace your heritage and history if it would help you to be better in faith. After all I am not making any untenable claims to first right to the kingdom of heaven as the RAJAMAKKAL/MAHADEVAR (read Knanaya) community does.

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  62. Dear Mathew…

    The words achan and appan are not synonyms as you said.. nasranis called their father appan as a malayalam version of the syriac word abba which means father.. In arabic also you can find the word abba wich means father.

    Achan means respectable person or noble man.. It may be derrived from the aryan..any how achan was used by the uppercaste mostly by the nair caste.
    Consider Paliyath achan, the famouse minister of cochin rajas.. They were the karanavars of the Paliyathu tharavadu, here achan is not a name but its the word showing respect. Simillerlly managttu achan… In nair caste the karanavars of the house also called achan which is the uncle since they have matriarchal system in encient times.

    In my familly itself i heard that my grandfather and his fore fathers were known as vallukombu achan (means vallikombu valiyachan and vallikombu kochachanmar) by the native people where the achan is used as a word of respect. Even my greater grand fathers were called as Vallikkada Panicker Achan by the natives.

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  63. Dear Mathew,

    May be the Nairs (and most hindu communities) are using ‘achan’ as their father is also usually one of their achans by relation (maternal uncle, often first cousin) due to cousin marriages performed among these communities.

    I am not sure. You may be right.

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  64. Dear Mathew,

    Regarding the usage of ‘Achan’ among the Nair community (and other hindu communities), I think this is basically due to the fact that their father is usually one of their ‘achan’s (maternal uncle, often mother’s first cousin) by relation due to the cousin marriages which used to be prevalent among them.
    I am not sure though. May be your observation is right

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  65. Varghese:

    re: civilizations. By definition the Arab nomadic way of life is not a civilization, so your point is nonexistent.

    I stand by my claim that a civilization’s persistence is an excellent indicator of its worth.

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  66. dear rps..
    I thing u know the hystory of nasranis of kerala..but not clearilly aware with the life style that they followed upto the portuguees colonisation.
    It was after the puthenkoor-pazhayakoor split that the nasranis of orthodox side started to call them as Syrian Christines.. Because they accepted the western syriac liturgy of anthioch and they made a tie up with the syriac orthodox church of anthioch. It was in anthioch that the christines first called as Christines.
    In kerala they were known as nasranis or marthoma nasranis or suriyanikar or suriyani nasranis or suraya nasranis or suriyani mappila or nsrani mappila.. Even after the koonen cross oath they called them as nasranis or suriyani nasrani. The split was not on the liturgy or the name to be called.. It was against the pressure made by the portuguees to accept their bishop or pope (whom the nasranis mentioned as paranki methran). Gradually no one used the name nasrani but simply reffering them as syrian christines since the term christines is started to call the christine believers world wide. Even catholics also not mentioning them as nasranis but they just say roman catholic christine or RC-SC..so its doesnt mean that these christines are not nasranis.
    Now regarding the brahminical conversion, its true that the most of the converted people in ancient time were jews present in kerala and some locals. The kerala hystory also says that in kerala the brahmin groups called namboodiris came to appear with in 6-8 centuries. But it is also there that there were some ideal invansion of brahmin familes in to kerala but they were completelly communion with the people here and they dont have any much prefference as of later times. So nobody cannt say that there wont be any brahminical conversion happed or not happened..This is a possibility. But later times there are some brahmin families who got converted to christianity.

    Now the major part of this post…The lifestyle of pre-portuguees christines are almost like brahmins only because the syrian christines are adopted as a part of hindu religion. They adopted us as one of their four caste, the Vaisyas, since there is no vaisya caste in hindu community of kerala.. It was the syrian christines who was handling the business (the job of a vaisya) in kerala. Also they got the rights (dont forget about the copper plates of syrian nasranis) similler to that of a brahmin which includes dress and behave like a brahmin, wearing the poonool and kudumi, wearing the mundu in a style as the brahmins ( that is to cover his feet), cover the upper body part of the nasrani woman, etc. also we were allowed to construct the churches in the form of hindu temples and use of muthukkuda, thooku vilakku, laksha deepam, pancha vadiyam, etc during church festivals.. also our men who were recruted into armis allowed to carry weapons ( since it was only christines who were allowed to carry weapon in all his ways, even in churches also)…Like this we enjoyed a lot of rights equivilant to both brahmins and kshatriyas…. Also the hindus accepted us as one among them, they accepted our bible as the fifth veda and they called us ancham vedakar ( eventhough we dont have a complete bible or peshitta with us as that of now. The only gospel that we used in those times is the gospel of mathew)….Also the brahmins allowed us to enter into their house province and it wont make them ayitham…The ceremony of puring the oil needs the nasrani ( it is believed that if a servent of the illam or an untouchable person touches or comes nearer to any things it is believed that the purticular thing turned into condaminated or it lost its purity. In such cases they believed that, “kelan thottu asudhamayathu ouseph thottal sudhamakum”, that means if the nasrani takes the thing and then returns to the brahmin then they believed that they had repurchased the purticular thing and since it is given by an uppercaste person who practices the sudhi so the purticular thing also pure)… So if the nasrani of that time ates meat then do u thing that the savrana section will come close to us.. They considered the people who ates meat and not practicing the purity according to them as heena jathikar….This thing not happened with kerala nasrani…so the claim that it was due to jews ates meat so we are also eating meat is a wrong concept… It was actually one of the thing which the portuguees forced us to do… When the portuguees came to kerala they were shocked that here is a well organised christine community called themselves marthoma nasrani and claimes the lineage of st. thomas and most importantly they were living as a part of the ruling religion.. They are practicing the rituals that are similler to that of hindus…They wear and behave like a high caste hindu…(These statements you can see in the letters that were send to King Manual of portuguees during the portuguees colonisation in kerala)..The portuguees tried to convince us that our rituals are not allowed …in allover the world except kerala christines are suffered a lot from the ruling caste..here we enjoyed a lots of rights from the ruling caste and we lived as a vegetarians similler to the ruling caste..The portuguees forced us to ate non-veg since they used to eat meat..all this happened in the 50 years during which the entire kerala churches were controlled by the portuguees… They told us not to take bath before attending a holly mass, do not do andu bali, burry the dead body in church province ( since we used to burry the dead body in house province as of the hindus and we considered the church province should not used for such things because the church is similler to a temple..The church was the temple for the nasranis.. so it should satisfy the things for the temple of a hindu)…. Do you thing it was due to the difficulty in accepting the Pope lead to the failure of the synode of Diamper and later to the Koonen Cross oath… No it was due to the questioning of the portuguees on the rituals that we followed for generations to generations, centuries to ceturies, the rituals taught by our fore fathers… They tried to change them all and to enforce there rituals and lifestyles into us… There lifestyle, rituals and believes were unknown to us and thats why the Archadeakon told during the Synod of Diamper or Udayamperoor that ” Pathrosine njangalku ariyilla… Njangal thomayude chollum vazhipadum mathram palichu jeevikkunnavaranu..”…….So most of the present lifestyle of malayali nasrani was after the portuguees colonisation and their control over our churches for a small span of hystory…the christines who tasted the non-veg never turned back… That ws the reason for us to be known as a non-veg caste even though we still belive as an upper caste…………

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  67. Sorry John, I cant find the definition that you are referring to. The definitions of civilization as per merriam-websters are

    “1. a : a relatively high level of cultural and technological development; specifically : the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained b : the culture characteristic of a particular time or place 2: the process of becoming civilized 3a : refinement of thought, manners, or taste b : a situation of urban comfort ”

    None of the given definitions disqualifies a nomadic lifestyle. Also I find this – ‘International Institute for the Study of Nomadic Civilizations’.

    As per what you says, the Jarawas of Andaman have the best of all. They haven’t changed at all since time immemorial and persisted the incursions by Cholas, the British and Indians. Truly an excellent use of logic.

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  68. Dear Varghese Mani,

    I think you got it wrong. What is more important than being a ‘Torah Observant Christian’ is to believe in your heart that you are a Hebrew/Isralite and that God has a purpose for you to be a ‘Light to the World’.

    It is the inner unshakeable conviction and belief that God has an unique purpose for you an Israelite, that makes one truly Jewish, that is, a member of the pride of the ‘Lion of Judha’.
    Outwardly things like the Shabbath, pork, tazzels, Passover does not make or break you. The world is waiting to hear the story of Isho through the lips of a Jew. The world will look straight into your heart for who you are, they are not fooled by outwardly Shabbaths or Shofars etc..

    I am not at all accusing you of being only ‘outwardly’, but only highlighting to you that the inside is most important and that you can not fail here in your ‘Torah Observancy’.

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  69. Dear Panikar,
    As i heard from Mr Alexander, as some people assume that portughese did a lot to nasrani. but he said not. portughese did was they tried to convience people that you cannot have a bishop who is indian. but suppose to be a bishop from persia or syria. Portughese again trap bishops who were reaching malabar kill them or take them in to coustody. when this began to happen, it was hard time for nasrani got the correct guidence. and this is what protughese took advantage to convience people to think of themselves more like indian and joined latin. Another thing portughese did to the nasranis that they burned the histories and datas of our ancient path, That is what we are still struggling and that what this forum struggling to find and answer. i would say it as an opnion that we can feel our semitic influences somewhere in our heritage and our forefathers or elder telling or introduced biblical matters as their own stoires in every nasranis childhood. So how is it so much possible in hindu land and there was not any bible in the past. This itself need to investigate lot more stories to tell than are we just indians or few hindu converts? i would not say it to investigate or dig more, when there is time comes it reveals someway or another and our discussion become more irrevalant because god knows everything.Again i would say since lot of jews lived in kerala and lot of nasranis been in kerala this gene pool is also in our fellow hindus or others. so its more bonded than thinking just about nasranis. look at janarthanan, madhu sreenivasan many many personalities connecting to westasian land in kerala.

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  70. Varghese:

    Sure, you can stretch the definition of civilization to include nomads. I’m sure in the same way in which you could stretch the definition of a family to include two same-sex individuals. You could stretch any concept to the point of utter silliness.

    But let’s be serious. No one could possibly view Arab nomadic culture as an example of true human civilization. There were Aramean-influenced Arab cultures which were civilized (the Nabataens), but no bonafide Arab civilization in the same sense as Mesopotamia, Greece, India, Persia, China, etc.

    Also, what I said about the Indians and Chinese was about their longevity: how long those civilizations actually lived and breathed and the fact that their civilization still lives. It’s not about being static and unchanging; that’s ridiculous, why would you even assume that? Are you still interested in stretching things to the point of absurdity?

    I couldn’t care less about cultures which have remained static and not progressed. Rather, the Indians and Chinese have continued to develop and evolve in an unbroken chain from their genesis.

    The Greeks and the Romans continue to live, but only via continuous rediscovery of their culture. They haven’t continued to develop in a continuous chain. Their date of death is known.

    The Arabs were Nomads that became civilized via their contact with Greco-Roman and Persian civilization.

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  71. Panikar,
    Your post 50019. I read with interest and I have to make the following observations.
    The Portuguese did not force the Nazranis to eat non vegetarian food. I think Nazranis were non vegetarians to start with. Your observation about Brahmans also deserves to be viewed critically. It is doubtful whether Thomas converted any Brahmans to Christianity as there were probably not many Brahmans then any way. The population were more likely to have been Buddhist and Jain.
    What the Portuguese did was to force Nazranis and others to eat Pork at gun point so to say. Those who refused to eat Pork were subjected to Inquisition. (refer to The Goa Inquisition by A.K.Priolkar ).
    It may be noted that Buddhist were and are not averse to be non vegetarians. In fact to cite a case in point .The recently retired Dalai Lama is non vegetarian. There is a reference to this in the autobiography of the late M.C.Chagla jurist and temporarily governor of Maharashtra (Roses—M.C.Chagla)It seems the Dalai was a guest of Chagla when he was governor and he was being served vegetarian food. After a few days the Dalai got fed up and asked whether the governor could arrange bacon and eggs for breakfast. But having said that it is dangerous to draw conclusions from isolated instances something I find in many posts on many issues. All the same there is no admonition among Buddhist about being vegetarian.
    This is not the case with Jain where it is insisted upon to be a vegetarian and most were and are vegetarians. The vegetarian trait may have come to Nazranis from Jain converts at the time of Thomas.Hindus do not have any such food restrictions and that great religion allows a lot of freedom to individuals to choose food habits. I cite the example of Bengali and Kashmiri Brahmans who are by and large non vegetarians.
    I feel we get confused about non vegetarianism and vegetarianism because the religions such as Jain and Buddhist have long since lost their identities and are considered part of Hindu religion. Most people in Kerala do not know much about Jainism as there are only a few thousands who practice that religion . Besides there does not seem to be any Jain monuments in Kerala like Karnataka A.P and T.N.
    I think the idea that Nazranis were vegetarians, at least some of them ,as they came from Brahmans is too far fetched to be true.
    Some historians are of the view that Brahmans came to Kerala much after Thomas. Your post also mentions the advent of Namboodiris at 6th 8th centuries. It could be even later. In such were the case then there may have been a Brahman conversion at the behest of the Portuguese and the descendants following the practice of Portuguese have conveniently destroyed that history. To some extent this happened in Goa which has a longer history of Portuguese colonial rule.
    About the koonen oath I would like to add that it was not just a mutiny against the Pope or a few Portuguese bishops. It was against hegemony both political and religious that was not acceptable to Nazranis. If you look at the so called Sepoy mutiny of 1857 it became an independence struggle only when Indian historians corrected history. Similar should have been the case with koonen oath, if only the Nazranis had support of local rulers who chose to be neutral of sided with the Portuguese.
    B.George

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  72. Dear rps,
    When the portuguees came to kerala, they never expected a community of christine peaple who called themselves as marthoma nasrani who were under the leadership of the arkadeacon from the pakalomattam familly. It was a new thing for them since they dont have any knowledge abot the nasranis of kerala ( reffer the letters send to portuguees king Manual from kerala by the portuguees ). In the letter send to the King Manual of Portugal they mensioned about the peaple of kerala in which they mentioned kerala as a land of men who believed to be wise, but in reality they are not. Also they mentioned about the christines that ” On reaching here we found a group of christines who is organised under theleadership of a peraon called archdeacon and they said to be converted by the St. Thomas. They do the holly mass in syriac and used to read the gospel of Mathew. They were very strong believers in christianity. They are a part of the native hindu community and the hindu rulers allowed them a lot of special rights. Unlike other christines they were not tortured by the ruling religion but they were honoured by them..” The portuguees thought india as a nation of heathens or idol worshipers called hindus. Seeing that here is a strong community of christines who dressed like a hindu brahmin, they thought that it is far easy to convert a christine community into latine right rather than converting a non-christine group. But the nasranis of kerala were not ready to accept them since they tried to critisise their rituals and and asked to change them and accept the rituals and methodologies of the portuguees. But they thought that it was because of the St.thomas heritage that we are saying and the peshita scrolls they used is preventing them to join them. So they just burned everything. Also regarding the bishophood, they never made a keralite bishop until the 17 century. Upto that time the syro-malabar was controlled by the latin bishops from west only. It was only at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century they allowed the syro-malabar community to be stand as a reeth upto that time they were under the direct controll of the Pop. By seeing this the portuguees tried to distroy a lots of our heritages. It is not the portuguees but the british also done something like that only. They made us to educate the modern science and lituratures. But i think it as they done it for their sak only. It is to avoid the communication gap between the indians and the portuguees/english..Yes..!!! for us it is an advantage that we improved a lot due to that but also we lost a lots of our culture and heritage behind…

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  73. Also there was no keralite bishops in kerala in those times .. All we have was an arkadeakon..And it was us who refuced the bishop post which is offered by the church of the east by saying that we have arkadeakon and we dont want a bishop. For us arkadeakon was evrything..He was like a king of nasranis in kerala..our forefathers reffuced the bishop post due to may be their reffusal to accept the church of the east or any external church completelly.. They just made an eccumenical relationship between the kerala church and church of the east for giving the mammodisa, ordaining a priest and to venerating the church by mooron qudasha. apart from that they dont have any much influence in kerala church. When the portuguees came they realised that they dont have a bishop who can lead them, so they make use of it.. also in those days Persia was out of the roman empire.. So they never allowed any bishops from Persia to reach here.

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  74. Dear Johncy Panicker ,
    You are cleverly stating that the nasranis of Kerala had bad Hindu rituals and the Portugese colonization tried to keep their rituals and that led to Koonan cross and such events. Yes we can agree to the fact that our Christianity was influenced by local rituals. But they kept a long standing legacy without the help of thrones or crowns. It is an amazing fact that they existed here without any control or any power. The respect of Claudius Buchanan is an example. When the missionaries came and started working, the nasrani community whole heartedly accepted it. They got permission to get in to churches to teach and preach. The present ‘pallikoodams’ is the result of it. But when the missionaries tried to control accepting bribe for consecrating priests by the Cheppadu Mar Divanyaosis, the things got changed. So it is not Portugese colosnization but catholicism destroyed us. There is a tendency nowadays that books are written even encyclopedias to take the heritage of Kerala christians by Catholics. It is a lie. They have nothing to do with nasranis before Menesis came here.

    Aji Matthew

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  75. Dear George Mathew,

    I think you got it a little wrong here (about what I said). Technically we are both right.
    I agree, you dont need to be a ‘Torah Observant Christian’. See that and I am not ‘Torah Observant’ any more. (I tried to be one, but for 2 weeks only). What God wants of you is to be spotless in heart. But the interesting thing is being a ‘Torah Observant’ doenst guarantee that (eg. Pharisees). Now the clever thing is ‘If you dont have a car, then you dont need a license’. But if you are a Christian enough then ‘Torah Observance’ would be an added advantage. Since I understood that all these are outwardly things which could make me a Pharisee only (as I am not up to the mark inwadly), I stopped.

    What a great relief. Inside my heart I am also a Hebrew, due to various reasons (I may not have any genetic link at all. – My DNA samples are with FtDNA now, ). Unike many of us I have some kind of special affection towards Jews also. So, now there are at least 3 non-Jewish people who stands with Israel (Me, You and Bush).

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  76. RE: Geevergheese ben Mathaiyahu

    Thats a good decision. I am sure you would be ridiculed a lot for this by your foes ( read friends and family).
    Very much true. Geevarghese -> George was definitely a socio-political decision that the Nasranis have taken. Yes! it is always good to support the winning team. We are known for our Chamelionism, If we were under the Russian Empire, all of us would have some ‘chov’s ‘kov’ and ‘pov’s attached to our names. (Was it not the Czar who was the most powerful man for a few centuries – British were powerful, but only at the powerless like indians, not like the Ruskis). In a few years there will be many Chans and Chens among Nasranis. I am confident.

    Varghese bar Mani

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  77. Dear John,

    I didnt go that far. And the comparison is not a fair one either. See, what ever I said about Arab Civilization/Nomadic lifestyle is based on definitions of Civilization available from commonly referred sources with a good level of acceptability. These were not added by me to distort to suite my own views. Clearly there is no proper definition for a civilization other than the one generally perceived from the word itself – i.e a culture/community/nation having some kind civil/social order in many aspects of human life. ( You seems to make a lot of assumptions about what others ‘might’ think/do. I am not a great fan of the word ‘ASSUME’ when it comes to others, as the word is self explanatory on trisection ). I have a very conservative outlook on religious and faith, though I am a liberal democrat on social outlook.

    You are able to say about the longevity of Indian civilization only because of your ignorance. Our civilization has been continuously transformed by a series of Invasive forces. The use of face veil among the North Indian women is just an example of how the Islamic Influence changed our civilization. The Indus Valley civilization died out much earlier, with out any trace of what happened to its people. It had nothing to do with the ensuing Vedic civilization. Then you have known history only from the time of Buddha, for a few centuries where we had a Buddhist culture, which was then taken over by Hinduism. Now we have unique blend of western/local cultures which defines our civilization. Clearly Our civilization hanst been evolving continuously, It is just polymorphic.

    However you are right when you says that the Chinese Civilization managed to stand the test of time. That was only because of ‘One Race, One language and One China’. The emperor who built the great wall also managed to unify the people under one language, Mandarin became the ONLY language of Chinese Empire. Again the Chinese culture wasnt a porous one which helped them preserve their civilization at least until the Cultural revolution in the 60s. The Chinese never mingles with others and always keeps their identity. So Chinese may have lived at the Malabar Coast, but wouldnt have mixed with the locals. Chin would stay Chin and Chen would stay Chen for a thousand years. Indonesia and Malaysia even have inhuman ‘Naming’ laws to break up the Chinese settlers.

    To any measure the Roman Empire is the greatest of all. Look in to the book of Daniel. The western Civilization, the modern Christianity everything has evolved out of or evolved for the Roman Empire. Actually its all a countinously evolving chain of civilizations (as the statue of Nebuchadnezzar). Even the concept of Republic is from Rome.

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  78. Dear Mr. B. Mathew,
    By eating fish or any other non-vegitarian food by only one or two sects of brahmins doeasn’t means that the entire brahmins sects are non-vegetarians. The kerala brahmins who are called namboothiris are known as the most orthodox brahmin sects than any other state brahmins. They strictly follows the vegetarianism. Again for your sake of knowledge , the brahmins are of two types: pancha -gouda brahmins from north to vindhya and and pancha dravida brahmins from south to vindhya(ie, karnataka(kannada), telungu(andhra pradesh), dravida(thamilnadu & kerala, marathi(maharashtra) and gujarath.. These pancha-dravida brahmins are stricktly follows vegetarianism.Again we can divide brahmins as vegetarians and lacto-vegetarians. This is a practice of brahmins from BC onwards and this custome should be followed strictlly by brahmins. But some brahmins inhabiting the cold regions of himalaya (ie, kashmir,himachal pradesh and nepal, and the costal region of bangal) eats fish and other locally available non-vegetarian foods occationelly. They were known as pesco-vegetarians. So according to this classifications where does kerala comes. As per the hystory it was along with the second chera invansion the brahmin sects are started to see clearilly(ie, 6-7 cetury AD). So we cann’t say that the entire nasrani community was practicing vegetarianism from the beginning, where as it is evident that the dravadian kings of the starting of nasrani hystory used to eats non-vegetarians and even the local priests also. But after the arrival of brahmins this thing changed. They began to divide the people according to caste and they declared the perumals as kshatriyas. They introduced the savrnas vegetarian practice. Anyhow the local rulers known as naduvazhis also increased to the state of kshatriyas.it was after the 10th century the varna system attained so much brudality and after the perumals erra it went more worst..So how can any say that the brahmins introduced the vegetarianism in upper castes will allowe a non-vegetarians to come near to him or his illam..? how he will allow the persons to touch the sacred things like oil which he brought for purifying by the touch of the nasrani….?

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  79. also regarding budhism, not every sects of budhism followes the non-vegetarianism. It is theravada budhism and vajrayana budhism that allowes its monks to eat non veg. They believe that Budha allowed them to eat pork, chicken and beef if the animal is not killed for the purpose of providing food for the monks. They also believe that budha gave them the option to choose vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism.
    In mahayana budhism they never allow its followers to eat meet. they follow pure vegetarianism.. So again regarding the vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism, it differs regions to region and sects to sects.. so seeing only one sect we cann’t say that the entire sects are non-vegetarians…

    Thats why i said that the nasranis followed vegetarianism atleast from the brahminical erra in kerala and ended in portuguees erra…

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  80. Dear Mr. aji,
    The hindu customes of kerala are not the customes of entire hinduism. They were the local customes in which most of them followed even before the brahminical erra in kerala.. if you travel all over the india you can find many different customes like this which are only in the purticular area only. These rituals are local only and started to practice as it is mensioned in the hinduism or any other prominent religion since the people started to follow it. It is true that we have a lots of customes which are similler to the local hindus, but we practices it in a religious way and the story we are telling is different from those that are telling by a hindu.. Since christinanity is started in kerala before the brahminical erra, there are possibilities that we are adopted a lots of local customes of that time which we can see today in christinanity as well as in the hinduism. In every region some custome will be there which we are followed from ceturies to centuries and generations to generations. Changing these things is very difficult for anyone since it is followed by generations and also it has a strong root in your mind. So the custom or ritual should be taken along with the person. Thats why most of the hindu rituals existed in christianity also. for example thought about the custome of making the kabar in the south side of the house and to do the andu bali in each year. This custome is almost over since we started to make kabar in church province only nowaydays( it was changed after the portuguees arrival only). The way we are making the andu bali is also religionised and changed in to a simple oppise or anitha. But in encient days it was like placing the food or liqour which the dead person likes most at the karbar. Rarelly in some families the custome is existed since they believe that if it has been changed then the entire generations will suffer from it. Also think about the arkadeakons kabar at kuravilangadu. instead of making the kabar in the church they make a seperate kabar (or known as savaparambu). There are a lots of other rituals in orthodox sects(both jacobyte and orthodox) like the way we are practicing “pela” after the familly members death.
    Even the Catholics also followes several customes like that which existed in the earlly pagan religion. The only thing they made is they left the pagon believes and they just converted the rituals in to christianity. Consider the christmass on dec. 25.. It was actually not in dec 25th that jesus took birth.. Actually it was the festival of sun during the pagans that is conducted in dec. 25th by the romans.
    One more thing , it was atleast from the 3rd century AD we have connections ( eccumenical connections) with the Church of the East. See that in the Synode of Nicea there was a bishop called John who represented both persia and india. It was us who wanted to keep only an eccumenical relationship with the church. Even once they offered a local bishop for us because of the difficulty in the communications to make between the two churches and the difficulty to travel from persia to kerala. It was us who reffuced the bishop post saying that we have arkadeakon and we dont want anybody above him. It was because we dont want to be a part of the Church of the East completelly. We want our identity seperatelly.

    Regarding the buchanan’s part,… It was our nature to welcome any bishop comming from outside kerala and hour him… It is called the bharathiya sabhyatha in nowaydays. It was not only during british, but in earlly centuries also happened..We accepted the bishops regardless the church they are representing. There was insidents that our priest got ordained from bishops of another church and the church of the east asked us to rivert the ordaining…wa allowed them to enter in to our churches, do the hollimass. etc. So it was not only the protestent bishop who enjoyed our pure and open mentality.. It was right that our church was ready to go in harmony with the protestent. The kottayam ceminary was built in communion with both the orthodox church of malankara( there was no jacobyte sects or orthodox sects at that time. both are commonly known as jacobytes).. But we realised the danger that the protestents are trying to eat our church completelly , Mor divannyasios made the mavelikkara padiyola.. It was the eight statements mensioned by the protestents( since i forgotten the name of the person) made us to do in which the first four were in favour of them , ie, our priest should be practiced and got certified by the kottayam ceminari which was controlled by the protestents, etc…. Its correct that after the portuguees many things are changed in kerala christianity….

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  81. I remember an earlier discussion about the design of old Nasrani tombs. There was an argument that old tombs did not have the cross or the symbol of the cross. I agree to that view. I think the idea of a gravestone is Western.

    I found an old tomb in Punnakad Mar Thoma Church. It looks quite similar to the tomb of the Archdeacons.

    Any idea how I can post the picture in the forum?

    Mathew T. George

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  82. Gravestones are neither purely Western or Eastern. There are examples in both.

    You can see countless examples of Easterners with gravestones and gravestones with crosses (e.g., the Nestorian crosses in China and along the Silk Road, the Armenian crosses, etc.). And there are countless examples of the opposite in the West. And vice versa.

    I hope you can post that picture. What is the history of that Church? I thought that only three”old” Churches were in the possession of the protestants in Kerala: (1) the old Maramon Jacobite Church, (2) Old Syrian Church in Chengannur, and (3) the old Jacobite Church in Kottarakara. I thought everything else was a new construction after the Mar Thomites lost the court case against the Jacobites … or am I wrong? Are there more old Churches in their possession?

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  83. Mathew T. George.
    Photos can be incorporated in a word document and sent to NSC. I do not see much difficulty in getting the photos into the discussion. Personally I am keen to see it.
    While discussing the graves I was going through the graves of the Black Jews of Cochin(Google)and they have a striking resemblance to the Akadiyokan(ARK )gravestones/markings.May not be anything other than a coincidence.
    B.George.

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  84. Dear Panikar,
    The myth of brahimns to the nasranis came from persian immigrants than syrian orthodox the later immigrants which are i think suryanis. Persian culture connected bit more to the north indian culture and when persian christian, i may say had jewish background. all this migrations made their way to malabar is because early jewish settlement in kerala and nasrani community. I think there are only few are from actual hindu nair or brahimn converted people if i look through patreneal side. That is why i think being nasrani is more hetrogenic mixture that some came out from hindu but have westasian influences through mother side. and some are from westasian orgin but married indian woman to became all one. Totally people may feel suryani people or nasranis as jewish influeces yet many patrneal side came from indian. and they are actual people just have the patrneal side from jewish and syrian orgin now days because none of them are original of anything but the early immigrants were orginal.

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  85. John Mathew & B. George

    Thanks for the help. But, as the file was huge, Word was really slow. So I uploaded it on Flickr with a ublic setting. The link is http://www.flickr.com/photos/41093322@N00/?saved=1

    JM: Sorry, I meant the structure of the tombs, not the gravestones per se. Old christian tombs in Kerala that I have seen are semi-cylindrical, with the inscription incorporated on the ‘face’. But western tombs are more of rectangles with a vertical cross/gravestone jutting out.

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  86. Why were the Old christian tombs in Kerala semi-cylindrical ? That is probably because our ancestors were clever enough to foresee the future. Nasranis have Zakevus syndrome (They usually use tombs as stools when in cemetery for some processions). If it is cylendircal on top, probably no one would stand on it.

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  87. Dear Aji,

    It is both inaccurate and inappropriate to state that Catholicism destroyed us all. To be fair it not the Portuguese nor the Catholicism that destroyed us (i.e our traditions and rituals of old. anyway we as a people are still not extinct) but we ourselves. We are a very strange species who are engaged in an irreversible cycle of self destruction. I agrees that we were all Sabbathizing Judizers before the Portuguese and the Catholicism came. But can they be held responsible for us being fantasizing idolaters now? Did they (Catholicism/Portuguese) tried to exterminate us ? No they didn’t. So, then who is responsible for our decline ? It is us, a people who are obsessed with FOREN culture but with little or respect/understanding of our heritage and cultural identity who are ultimately responsible for our own decline. Remember, no one can make you feel an idiot unless you agrees to.

    Second to be held responsible is Tipu, the fanatic muslim invader. This may be extremely offending to many as he is a celebrated Hero in our history(Whose story?). Shame on us all for being proud of this Taliban.

    With the Udayamperoor Sunnahadose the Portuguese managed to split us though they may not have intended to do so. But we then split among ourselves 7times, at least (not mentioning the numerous ‘church of gold’s ). Even today we are fighting each other in and out of court, politically and publicly. But ironically the spoils doesnt belong to either of the parties. The winner is always the third-party here, it is the ‘whitened walls’ who share the spoils. So who did the maximum damage ? It is us. Mea culpa Mea culpa (5 more times)

    And with the synod Catholicism was introduced. Definitely Catholicism brought in some alien elements to Nasrani faith and life, some were definitely bad, but not all. Looking in to the Decrees of the Synod, most of those were good (my opinion). But not everyone accepted these and the Church was split. So what happened to the community that split away to preserve the old customs and rituals ?. They chose to embrace Antiochian faith and liturgy. So who is responsible then ? It is us, a people with not much understanding and definitely with no dignity or self respect.

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  88. Another ridiculous excuse is the claim that the Portuguese ordered to burn our books and we did so. And from then onwards we lost all our liturgy and heritage. But of the 112 parishes only 84 decided to obey. So what happened to the rest ? I am sure that they decided not to burn, but to preserve it all. (Remember, One can pose to be your master only if you are willing to obey). So definitely there was a chance to preserve ourselves, our past, our heritage, rituals, history and uniqueness. I dont see any forign power/ism responsible, but we ourselves who left our heritage to be left to be dead and rotten. Mea culpa. (plus termites – they are born to be so)

    Ancient church buildings are demolished on a daily basis, destroying vast amounts of murals and antiquities (we have a thread on this on NSC). Some of our priests are even smarter than (they think so) PNC Menon. These remarkable builders & realtors, obsessed with FOREN architecture and flush with cash have even achieved what Tipu’s Malabar campaign could not achieve. Read the passage below, taken from http://angamalybasilica.com/template.php?id=35&page=10&catid=74.
    ##”Ancient churches had mammoth walls (elephant walls) fixing rock lamps which surrounds the churches. These walls are very strong and its peculiar shape meant to resist the attack of elephants and enemies. The attractive mammoth walls of St. George church were demolished in 2005 and constructed new one in place of old mammoth walls.”##. See the vision of our forefathers who built such magnificent structures. But unfortunately they didn’t foresee the enemy with in.
    Do you thin it is possible with out the consent of the Parishioners ? A notable builder (read Vicar) tried to pull down the millennia old Arakkuzha Church a few years ago. But the Parishioners were prudent and had a high level of dignity. Gracefully the church was spared and the Muvattupuzha valley Civilization is still breathing.

    So who is here to blame ? Catholicism/Portuguese/Foolish Nasrani ? Again Mea culpa Mea culpa Mea maxima culpa.

    The Portuguese may not have intended to destroy us / erase our history. But they tried to correct us (on the concept of infallibility of Rome), viewing the locals to be heretic (as per their theological views). The Irony is that today the best known sources of our past are from some of the old colonialists. Please try to realize that the Original Nasrani Raza is still preserved in the Syro Malabar Church (also the Chaldeans ). Agreeably there are lesser no of people attending Sunday mass when considered with the Saturday novena which is the crowd puller (at last we have some Jewishness left in us – see we still have Saturdays more sacred than Sundays) But who is responsible for this ? Its again the laity. IF you are a Catholic, do not be afraid ‘Not to touch the Idols or even look at them if you believe so’. Fed up with people thronging Novenas while deserting holy communion ? Choose on your own No body is holding you to ransom. You have the freedom to choose. ‘Truth will make you free’ – Buddha. That is why the Christ came. But unravelling the truth is a misery.

    I agrees with you that the latinization is a threat to us being independent reeth.

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  89. Dear Aji,

    by ‘Choose on your own’ i meant ‘choose what you wants to attend. how to worship god’. I didnt mean ‘leave the church for pastures new’. Its our duty to stay with in the community that our forefathers built, to voice our opinion and help the Church & Priests to be in the right path. Deserting would be cowardice, like rats desertign a sinking ship. If you are not happy with Catholicism (I am a catholic and I am not happy with how Syro Malabar Church is today), instead of naming, blaming and shaming we should talk among ourselves in a constructive way. Carpet bombing is not good. No offence meant. It is not what your community believes / practices that saves you, but what you follow and practice.

    Orthodox/Jacobite are equally culpable in destroying our heritage, if not more. They chose to leave all the heritage to termites and brought in Antiochian Theology and liturgy. See the annual spat between these two factions. Well dressed Men from good families are doing a DYFI on the street, defying the law of the land chanting ‘Poda pulle collectore…apppa ooppa pilleralla…’ Clearly none of these are that orthodox. Their utterances arent corroborative with what they do. So nobody is better.

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  90. Today I finished reading ‘Emergence of Hinduism from Christianity’ by MM Ninan. Interesting. A lot of good observations, based on some very revleaing facts and some fantasies. I think there is a great amount of truth in it. Check the meaning of Murasoli Maran. It is ‘Lions Roar’ + ‘Old Tamil God’. So what is the meaning of ‘Iso Maran Misiha’ ?

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  91. People who do not understand their HERITAGE, their IDENTITY and their UNIQUENESS are poised to Perish – Alexei II, Patriarch of Russia and the East, the inheritor of Byzantium

    And even after 73 years in darkness and bondage the Russians have identified themselves, their heritage and their uniqueness and the Russian Orthodoxy has emerged ever powerful. Unfortunately the boastful Nasrani are still playing the blame game and spiralling down the path of cultural extinction.

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  92. MathewT. George,
    Thanks for the nice photographs. It is really appreciable that you have taken so much trouble. I just wondered as to the age of these graves. Any idea? I have held the view that many of the ancient graves that are there need to be dated if they are already not dated. This can be done by a technique known as radio carbon dating. No doubt you are aware of this. There are even better dating technique by finding the elements that have a short and definite time frame of atomic decay and they are said to give better results.
    B.George

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  93. Panikar, I am in agreement that vegetarianism and non vegetarianism are not strictly followed on the basis of religion and caste. These are by and large, regional ethnic and cultural too. My point was about Nazranis being vegetarians and that is strictly speaking not so although there were and still there are Nazranis who follow vegetarianism. But they are small in number.
    I have a feeling that Nazranis by and large were and still are followers of the Baniya professions of the north like business, money lending, farming etc. I come from the Pathanamthitta district and have a very extensive family connection in that district and rarely have I found someone who was not a follower of one of the professions mentioned above taking into account the family professions of the last 2-3 hundred years. Brahmans in a relative sense do not practice these professions although you will find plenty of traditionally land owning Brahmans in north Kerala. I think the Brahman origin of Nazranis will require more critical attention.
    B.George.

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  94. Dear Johcy,

    You wrote ‘..the Church of the East. See that in the Synode of Nicea there was a bishop called John who represented both persia and india. It was us who wanted to keep only an eccumenical relationship with the church..’

    You seem to imply that ‘Bishop John’ was from Malabar. If so, please support your claim.

    To make my query clearer!
    The then India included today’s Afghanistan, Pakistan, today’s India (and Kerala). There were Israelite/Nazerene/Jewish communities in Parthia, Taxila, Kalyan, Goa and Malabar, apart from some other locations. Ethopian was also at times referred to as India by the West (Greek, and Romans). Ethopia was evangilized by Syrian Nazerenes and today’s Orthodox Christians of Ethopia are the fruits of the labour of those Syrians. So, the name ‘India’ can be vastly extended to include 100,000s of square miles of the world. Even Tibet had Nazerene presence. Large chunks of history of similar ‘unheard’ places has been lost.
    Please support your implied claim that Bishop John was from Malabar.

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  95. Dear Johncy Panicker,
    Thanks for your comments. Your have made correct observations. However I would like to point out the facts that led to the split between Kerala christians and missionaries. You said that we welcomed and honored every faith. It is not true. If it was true, Archdeacon would have welcomed the Catholics but opposed. But we whole heartedly welcomed missionaries, because their stand was correct. The factors that led to the conflict were (1) the corrupt practices done by Cheppat Mar Divanyasis (2) The part played by Mar Athanasios, Marthoma Church. Some feared that if it continued, that is the work of missionaries, they(Chepat and supporters) would lose the control and benefits. So they insisted Chepat Metropolitan to sever the ties with missionaries. When the conflict arose, missionaries demanded only the following
    1. Give ordination only to priests who come with the course completion certificate from the seminary principal.
    2. Give a copy of the statement of accounts passed in every parish church to the Resident.
    3. Fix salary to priests.
    4. Start schools for all churches.
    5. Read the Malayalam Bible loudly in the churches.
    6. Explain the Syriac terms in Malayalam.
    Missionaries did not submit any suggestion to change anything of the practices of Kerala Christians. Chepat opposed the first suggestion because he ordained priests for money not of merit. So he feared that he will lose his revenue. The second suggestion was rejected because they don’t want to to show accounts to resident. Missionaries aimed to help the poor churches. Third suggestion was to control the priests who were exacting large sum of money from the people for conducting witchcraft and praying for the dead. So they opposed.
    Nobody opposed the last suggestions. As we know, chepat and his supporters sever connections with the missionaries. Even Konat Malpan used the money he got building seminary from the missionaries, he built a church and kept under his name and family. The members of Pampakuda church do not have any control over the church which they attend because it belongs to Malpan. I think these practices of Chepat and his supporter against truth led to the quarrels that kept among Christians of Kerala. Really we had a heritage of 2000 years. Should we go back to the old rugged cross an emblem of suffering and shame?

    Thanks again for your comments.

    Aji Matthew

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  96. Dear Varghese Mani,
    Thanks a lot for your comments. I am not hitting against the air. By God’s grace I know what I believe. You have the complete right to keep what you believe. Jesus said ” I am the truth”. I stand for truth. Apostle Paul says 1 Timothy 2:7:
    7″And of this matter I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (special messenger)–I am speaking the truth in Christ, I do not falsify [when I say this]–a teacher of the Gentiles in [the realm of] faith and truth.”
    I am just commenting on the truth alone. Paul warns
    1 Timothy 1:4:
    4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
    1 Timothy 4:7:
    7But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
    This is my point of view.
    Thanks for your comments.

    Aji Matthew

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  97. Dear Aji Mathew,

    In the above mensioned clauses the first one and second one are in favour of the missionary only. From outside they were safe for the malankara church. But from behind there was some trouble.
    1. Actually during the time the principal of the cemenary was the protestents. If a deacon has to be ordained as a priest then he should get the certificate from these protestent principal which is not easy since their theological view and our theological view are different . So there are chances that only a person who is studying and practicing their doctorine only will get such a certificate. That means we have to compromise our doctorine in their foot, this may lead that our church will gradually converted to anglican or it will be like marthoma churches. Also we have the practice of sending peoples to various malpans for learning the church practices , syriac language and chants and bible. Those who were successfully complete their studies will ordain as a priest. If we accepted this creed then the other priests who were ordained in this manner will be declared unauthorised.
    2. The church was not ready to give the copy of the accounts to the british resident, because as everybody knows that each church in kerala were at diiferent levels in the matter of earning and property. Actually this clause was not only to show the account details but also to show the property details to the british resident and also they will control the churches property. May be the our bishops thought that this will lead to a complete control over the church by the missionaries.

    Anyhow the missionaries made the clauses very cleaverelly. From out side there is no harm but from inside a lote are there.

    Eventhough the church has rejected the proposal of the missionaries through mavelikkara padiyola, the church implied most of their proposals. Like fixing the salary for the priest, starting schools with adjacent to church, reading and popularising malayalam bible instead of syriac bible or peshitta, etc. They asked us to change our liturgy into malayalam which was not acceptable by us. But later we translated most of the qurbana parts into malayalam so normal people can understand, only the parts the priests has to chant is in the syriac.

    Anyhow it is very difficult to believe that the protestent missionaries approached us to help us.

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  98. Dear John Mathew,

    The Bishop John was not from malabar… He was from persia and a syrian christine from the church of the east. I mentioned his name here to show that we have connections with persia or church of the east before the nicean synode in 325 and also we have persian bishops. But we dont have a single bishop from kerala because we reffuced it saying that we have arkadeakons.. For kerala nasranis the arkadeakons were like kings of nasranis and they never wanted any bishops above the arkadeakons..

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  99. Attn: Varghese Mani

    That’s a very interesting perspective, though I do not think they made it semi-cylindrical foreseeing this! But what is Zakevus? Never heard of it before.

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  100. Dear Johncy,

    To keep you informed, Kerala is aflame with knowledge that Bishop John had represented the Malabar Nazerenes at the Nicene Synod. We hear it spoken from the pulpit, in tea rooms and elsewhere. Unless some ‘respected’ scholar addresses this issue, I am afraid this very possible myth will be ‘real’ in the minds and hearts of our people.

    Simply because New York has a population of over 8 million does not mean that in AD 325, there was a sizable Nazerene group in Malabar with a Bishop. We do not even have reasonable evidence that the Jathi Moopans were present in Malabar in AD 325. However, DNA evidences mention that Cohens may have arrived in Malabar roughly between AD 350 to AD 500.

    Reference about ‘Bishop John from India’ persists and I would advise to take it at it’s face value. That is, Bishop John would have been from Parthia/Afghanistan, Taxilla, Pakistan etc.. which were all called India at some time or other and not from Malabar. This is what commensence/evidences speak. Correct me if I am wrong.

    It was not John Mathew who put the query to you, but me George Mathew, though we are both from Canada.

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  101. Dear Johncy Panicker,
    You have told that the suggestions of the missionaries were accepted later means that they were good suggestions. The suggestions got rejected only because that will stop the bribery of Chepat and the false accounts of priests. There is no point to believe that the aim of missionaries was wrong. Even the British had power and even SNDPs approached to join with missionaries, they rejected only. I think the church of Kerala headed to problems like today only because they broke their relations with the missionaries.

    Thanks for your comments.

    In Christ,

    Aji Matthew

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  102. Dear Varghese Mani,
    You seemed to be second Menesis. Your argument that destruction was an excuse shows nothing but the job of Menesis. Kindly go and study what goon Menesis did against Christians and Kerala. Your argument that you destroyed only 84 out of 112 parishes, shows that you like to destroy everything. When Joseph Methran wanted to catch and kill Marthoma, he did not get Marthoma. When Joseph understood that they were at Mulanthuruty, he sent military to kill him but cleverly Marthoma escaped. Metran got only the vehicle of Marthoma. He burnt it and said I could burn Marthoma like this! Pope is going to all countries and pleading sorry for heinous crimes Catholics did against christians and other religions. If he comes to Kerala, I will demand him to do it. The academic council of Bangalore Dharmaram college decided not to celebrate the 400 year centenary Synod of Diamper was because it was not legitimate. So please don’t justify what happened. We can’t change history but can accept the truth.
    Aji Mathew

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  103. Dear Mathew T,

    I meant ‘Zakeus’ (Luk 19:1-10)

    Zakevus may have been the brother of Copernicus.

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  104. Aji ,
    I am in total agreement with your sentiment that the Pope should apologize for all the ills that the then Portuguese RC church and Menezes did to the Nazrani community. If a Pope can go to Israel and pray at the Holocaust memorial and offer apologies to the Jews then this is also quite legitimate and most appropriate. I would also like to suggest that historians should look at the Koonen oath incident and decide whether it qualifies to be considered as a struggle for independence.
    B.George

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  105. Dear Aji,

    Thank you for your comments and criticism.
    But you havent demonstrated how the Catholicism destroyed ‘us’. You havent shown me why, if any of my points are invalid. Why are you silent on ‘what happend to the 28 parishes that opposed the decrees ‘. What happend to those traditionalists (who supposedly stood up for the traditions). Would I be confessing to an untruth if I say ‘The split away faction were the worst when it came to preserving the traditions they stood up for’?.
    After reading your other posts (Konat Malpan, …etc ) now I understand that you are a Jacobite/Orthodox Nasrani who is having a conviction that ‘Our forefathers were all saints, following the true Margam and the bloody Catholics came and destroyed us all’. That is not quiet true. How can you say that the Catholicism destroyed us all when you dont belong to Catholic Church and the Portuguese inquisition was limited to the Kingdom of Cochin only (it was far less intense to the south) ? If you have the excuse that the use of violence forced us to embrace Antiochian Orthodoxy, I would suggest you to go through the Armenian Genocide and the Assyrian Genocide and whether these communities have any of their heritage and traditions preserved or not.

    All you are saying here is ‘the Portuguese inquisition that followed the Synod of Diamper’ wasnt good for the Nasranis as a community. Presumably you are not a catholic. So let me ask you “Matthew 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?”

    If all your criticism is about the Portuguese(ordered by the Catholic Church) inquisition, then what is your opinion about the Jacobite inquisition and the Orthodox counter insurgency that continues even till this date ? What about Malakara Varghese ? See, I did not deny the brutal religious persecution that the Portuguese did here in the name of god.
    I did not deny the fact that the persecutors were Catholic. I had clearly stated why the did that (infallibility of Rome).
    Please do remember that it was the world order during those times. If you think that the Syro Malabar Church is culpable of the atrocities during the Portuguese, Please find time to read Ezekiel 18:2 (Fathers had sour grape…..)

    Pope is going around the world apologizing for the past sins. Thats is a good sign. But sadly I havent seen any of the Orthox/Jacobite Metropolitans doing that but instead they are upping the ante ?

    If you were to say that the Synod was illegitimate, I would have to say that you could prove it legitimate if you wants to (I dont anyway). Portuguese inquisition was a result of the split that followed the Synod. That is very natural outcome, I would say. You know why? Aggression is the Mother of Order.
    Remember that the Catholic Church had some say in Nasrani affairs since our Mother Church was in communion with her (So Catholic Church was our aunt). So they felt that they had some I am not trying to justify the use of force and violence by the Portuguese. and Since the Portuguese, by Virtue of the treaty with the King of Cochin had command over the Nasrani subjects and the Catholic Church was the the superior church to the Nasrani. No body likes Schism or rebellion.

    Personally I dont feel responsible for the crimes committed by Catholics/Christians/Nasranis/Mallus worldwide. I need to feel guilty and be held responsible if and only if they were committed by me. As per your logic if the Catholic Church/members have committed crimes in the name of God then the responsibility falls on Catholicism. So ultimately it falls up on the Christ himself. Am I right ? Catholicism isnt that bad as you think. There are teachings based on human thought, not founded up on or backed by the word (purgutery, limbo..). But all is not bad. Church may be bad but the ism isnt.

    If 84/112 parishes agreed to the decrees of the Synod, then what does that imply ? (from a democratic view).
    You could argue that those who aligned with the forign power were cowards. I have no problems with that. Now, looking at the decrees imposed in the Synod, I believe that the decision taken by my ancestors was the right one.
    Probably the most damaging ones may have been (possibly causing the revolt)
    Session VII, Decree XVI: Ecclesiastics forbidden to marry
    Session VII, Decree XIII: Forbids polygamy

    Decree XIII should have been opposed by a large section of the population. If I lived around back then I would have gone tooth and nail against it as it is against my percieved human rights. (See why the Muslims are against unified civil code – “It is inhuman to ban polygamy and a grave viloation of our human rights” – Kanthapuram Abubacker Musaliar.). Even if there wasnt a Synod of Diamper, I wouldnt have enjoyed such privilages today. The british would have banned it anyway. But why didnt the community revolt when the British introduced the Civil Code ? (Meesayulla appane pediyundu)

    Many of the traditions prevalent those days are a taboo now.Would any one among us be happy to marry off their children at very young say 15, or even as young as 10-12 ? Would you like to practice polygamy ? Then be not afraid. Go back to the heavenly practices of 1598.

    shamefully,
    Alexis Don Meneses II (aka Varghese Mani).
    Defender of faith (my own)

    Sorry if my language is offensive. No offence meant,. I am in defence ,.

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  106. To: Varghese Mani

    Of course, Zakkayi! The man on the sycamore tree. True, I have seen so many people walking over graves during funerals.

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  107. Dear Johncy Panicker,

    Many info you had given above are so informative.

    Can you describe the historical reasons behind the split of Syrian Christians into Orthodox and Jacobite???

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  108. Varghese: What is wrong with Syro Malabar Church if you compare with any of the Indian Christian communities. There are not many problems inside the Church now . It is much better than the other sister churches which struggles to keep themselves together even being very small in size. Syro Malabar Church is also doing good missionary activities. I was told that now there are more than 100,000 believers who are converts in different states of Kerala. Even the New elected Major Archbishop was the Bishop of a missionary diocese, which definitely says the direction church is going in future.

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  109. Aji Mathews comments are driven by ignorance and hatred. He has no sense of time. He is talking about Sixteenth century and then Nineteenth century and then mixing the events. The most funny part is his imagination to blame Catholics for the problems Anglicans created among the Puthencore.

    The nasranis existed with out the help of any royal crowns, which is including the very mighty Anglican crown. It is the Anglicans which is the root cause of many problems in Puthencore !! This happened in Nineteenth century and has nothing to do with Catholics. The root causes of the many problems between Jacobite and Orthodox today lies with the Anglican courting and the events which lead to the creation of Malankara Marthoma Church.

    Claudius Buchanan is only known in the Protestant side of Nasranis and may be among some section of the Puthencore too. The Protestant Nasranis may be less than 5 % of the Nasrani population. There is only one pre Portuguese Church which joined the Protestant side fully in twentieth century. Out of the 116 pre Portuguese churches, 84 churches and those communities stood with the Catholics in Seventeenth century. 32 churches stood with Puthencore ( todays Orthodox and Jacobite) in Seventeenth century. From these 32 churches, Only one, the Chenganoor Church joined the Protestants side in twentieth century. Claudius Buchanan have not been even to many of the churches. What is the point in blaming Catholics for the Protestants created problems ?

    Anglican low church missionaries were not the first missionaries. They came here after many centuries the Catholic missionaries were here. There were many Catholic missionaries including the Portuguese, Jesuit, Franscian, Dominican etc from 13th century onward in Kerala and in other parts of the India. They did make good contributions to Nasranis and other Christians they formed here. In fact they built the churches of Nasranis !! The Christians here welcomed the Portuguese and got their help for their existence. The social order Nasranis achieved is also accomplished with Portuguese help.

    Even Anglican Bishops like Leslie Brown has said that the intention of the Anglican missionaries and the British in dealings with the Christians here was to support the British crown.

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  110. Have you heard about Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III ?

    Before the Udayamperoor Sunahados, the bishops in Malabar were Catholic Chaldeans. We were under Church of East before the Chaldeans.

    After the division in fifth century some of the Church of East Patriarch did had cordial relations with Rome and some of them joined Rome as well.

    Let me share an interesting document from the Vatican Secret Archives. I am sure some of you might have heard about the great Patriarch of Church of East, Mar Yahballaha III (1245–1317).

    Before elected as the Patriarch, he was known as Monk Morqous bar Turkaye ( Son of turk). His origins were Mongol and Chinese on mothers side and turk on father side. In 1281 he was elected as the Patriarch of Church of East with the name of Mar Yahballaha III.

    In 1287, Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III send his profession of faith to Pope Nicholas IV. In 1302, the Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III send another document to Pope Bonafice VIII.

    Please see the second document in the following link :

    http://www.2shared.com/photo/eEfp0e-m/Pallium_of_Mar_Yahballah.html

    Here is my translation:

    The letter is written in black vegetable ink. On the lower part is the symbol of Church of East “ the universal cross”. First five lines are written in Syriac. Following is the translation. “ In the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit. Amen. To our most holy father and lord Bonafice: the unworthy and humble Yahballaha, who by the grace of our lord Jesus Christ has been elected Catholicos and Patriarch of Orient, ask your holiness to bless him. The rest of the document is written in Arabic except the last line

    There is certainly a difference between hatred driven rambling and physical evidences.

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  111. dear all,
    In case of Syrian christians there was strong evasion from both portugese and English crown, lots of books, documents and valuebles are destroyed even a lot have to sacrifise their lifes. Like spreading their polictical dominance over region they also tried to dominate over religion. But a lot of contributions are also from their side like schools, other educational institutions, hospitals etc. There is nothing benefit in digging in the past and blamming others the result is creating hatred among us, we all are believing in same god and he taught us the message of love and unity. Let us stand in our own faith and let him deciede who was rite and who was wrong.

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  112. Dear Varghese Mani,
    Thanks for your long reply. We can agree to disagree. I can see the ardent Catholic in you. I am not against what you believe but I stand for what I believe. It is happy that you accept the sins committed by Catholicism in India. So I request you to tell Pope to denounce ‘infallibility’ theory. You put a clever idea that before the Synod of Diamper there was polygamy among priests and Menesis stopped it. Haven’t you read that some popes got married and had many children? The sad death of Abhaya can tell what happens at convents. I plead you to make a truthful survey among the priests and catholic nuns about their holy life. I am not going to support Jacobites or Marthomites or Protestants. I was a communist. Later when communism collapsed I watned to be Sanyasi like Swami Vicekananda. While his reading “Vivekananda Sahithya Sangram” his lecture about Jesus Christ captivated me to know our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. He forgave my sins, healed my sicknesses, delivered from every bondage and blessed. I am nobody, telling everybody about somebody (Jesus Christ) who can save anybody. Let me put the gist of what I believe.
    1. By God’s grace there were Christians in Kerala from the very beginning of Gospel.
    2. A Thomas or two Thomas might have come to Kerala but Apostle Thomas did not come.
    3. There were immigrations from Persia, Syria and missionaries and priests of other churches.
    4. Kerala Christians in general were not under any dominion. There were bishops and priests came as migrants or missionaries but but they could not influence us.
    5. Kerala Christians did not follow any priest hood till the coming of Vasco Da Gama.
    5. Catholics got root only after Vaso Da Gama’s visit to Kerala. All other stories they tell are simply lies.
    6. Antioch got place in Kerala only after the Synod of Diamper.
    7. The Missionaries helped much to the growth of Kerala Christians. At least we got education and Bible in our hands.
    8. There are faithful followers of our Lord in all congregations. All the churches we see today are started by priests, for priests and of priests.
    Jesus was against priests and I too as his disciple.
    This is what I believe. I have no other intention but to stand with truth. But if any one comes against it, I am not going to argue but will stand for Christ.

    In Christ,

    Aji Matthew

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  113. Georgekutty,
    Let me quote your own words “There were many Catholic missionaries including the Portuguese, Jesuit, Franscian, Dominican etc from 13th century onward in Kerala and in other parts of the India. ” So there were NO Catholics in Kerala before 13th century. You agreed the point. This is what we historians say – the catholics did not have anything to do with christians of Kerala. When your “Portuguese, Jesuit, Franscian, Dominican” etc failed to make much importance in Kerala, you brought goon Menesis for the mafia work. Even Catholic historians do not justify the vandalism of Menesis. Why did he do it? It is because your Portuguese, Jesuit, Franscian, Dominican etc could not attract Kerala Christians. If Christians of Kerala were attracted to missionaries, it was not of any force but because of the love toward the word of God and the heritage of true gospel that ran in their blood.

    In Christ,

    Aji Matthew

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  114. Dear Aji Mathew You have too much hatred of catholic church. If you read Jornada you will understand that it is the Portuguese padroado rule and the unauthorised activities of Dr Menesis that caused the problems in the church of St thomas christians. St Thomas christians of kerala rejected the padroado rule by the koonan cross oath. From then on they (both pazhayakoor and puthiyakoor) have never been under the padroado rule. When mar thoma was elected by 12 priests as methran he started acting as a Bishop invalidly since he was not consecrated as a Bishop canonically by laying hands of other bishops. He continued to claim himself as a Bishop and wore the clothes of a Bishop at the same time he demanded Bishop Joseph to consecrate him as a bishop. . Bishop Joseph told him first he should say that he is not a bishop then only he can consecrate him as a Bishop but he refused. Then to fool the people priest Ittithomman kathanar stole a letter written by Pope (written in latin) from Thodupuzha church and read it in many churches as if it is a letter written by Pope to ordain mar thoma as a Bishop (actually it was not such a letter) to convince the people, since the people regarded Pope as the head of the Universal church (Catholic church). Later this plot was understood by all. All these activities caused the loss of credibility of marthoma. Bishop causing lot of people to defect him. Joseph was ready to ordain mar thoma as a Bishop but he was not ready to say he is not a bishop. Then by by missionaries that Aji means the CMS missionaries I guess. They are protestants. St thomas christians of kerala have nothing to do with protestants since they reject all traditions of church and other so many reasons. What a name is this Protestant church? what does it mean? . The pazhayakoor was under carmelite missionaries from 1653 to 1896. From then on indegenous Bishops took charge. Now the Pazhayakoor is an autonomous church in catholic fold. It has reinstated the COE qurbana in malayalam. Instead of fighting each other we should try to unite under a common church. Johny Kuriakose

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  115. Aji Mathew is a fake who acts in disguise. He is a Protestant and when got caught in his true colors, he is trying another disguise to mislead people. He is all nonsense and have no knowledge of history. These Anglican Protestants have hatred against Orthodox and Jacobite as well. Since its helps in disguise they sometimes acts like Orthodox and Jacobite. Their strategy is infiltration. They spread by hatred and in order to be successful they mostly try Catholic hatred to attract people to their heresy. These kind of people penetrate in to Orthodox and Jacobite sect and spread hatred against Catholics. To some extent they are successful there but these type of Protestant infiltration is unsuccessful among Catholics. Hence they have so much hatred to Catholics. It is Kukiri Sayyip who thought them this hatred in Nineteenth century !!!

    This guy is talking about destruction by Catholics ! What a funny criticism is that. Before Menezes came the Christians of Kerala were under Catholic Chaldeans. Menezis was here in Kerala for few months. He was not a phenomena which was spread in some centuries as this fake Anglican Protestant is trying to picturise. 116 Churches stood with Catholics- That is All the Christians of Kerala —for some sixty years under Jesuits when Menezis was no where in picture. The split happened only after some 60 years.

    After the split, the Churches 84 of them stood in Catholic side and it is today’s Syro Malabar Church. It was some 70 % of the total Christians in 17th century and still it is. It exist as ONE single church, with a bonafide east syriac liturgy, traditions and practice. There is no destruction.

    It was the Puthencore side which got destructed . That was not by Portuguese. It was by Anglicans. Catholics did not destruct anything among the Puthencore. The 32 Churches which stood with Arkadiyakon did exist with out trouble when Portuguese presence was there in India. They ie, only the Puthencore underwent destruction and that is at the hands of Anglicans. The destruction was done by Anglicans. They left the protestant nasranis who joined them with nothing even the liturgy was destroyed beyond repair.

    Why don’t you go and ask the Angilcan lesbian and bi sexual bishops to apologize ?

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  116. The 32 churches which where with the Arkadiyakon in Seventeenth century did exist as ONE Church and stayed together with out much trouble until the arrival of British. It was not the Portuguese who destroyed them. It was the British. Under the Anglican British missionaries influence and strategy they are now split in to many : Orthodox, Jacobite, Independent, Marthoma etc. Marthoma was even split in to Evangelical in its over 100 years of existence. Each one of them being so small is still having very difficulty to keep their people together. All these are thanks to the Anglican missionaries. It is utmost foolishness that still this fake protestant wants to criticize Catholics for the satisfaction of his inferiority complex on something Catholics has no role.

    He is talking about Abhaya case, priests etc. What has that to do here ? It sounds as if people are not aware of the scandalous practice among the Protestants. ? Are you nuts ?

    I know you don’t understand history. What I have posted earlier is a profession of faith by Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III of Church of East.

    It is the Proestants who have no role in Kerala Christian history. I don’t think I need to take any lesson from a 21st century exported Protestant who still cherishes the stories told by Kukiri Sayipp to infiltrate in the Puthencore. Dont you have any scholarship ? Why do you still need the Kukiri Sayipp ?

    Catholics makes up some 75% of the Indian Christians. In Kerala also they are more or less 75 % of the total Christian population. This is just because the Portuguese, Jesuit, Franscian, Dominican etc converted the people and made good contributions for the survival of existing Christians here. Look at you, you still need the infiltration strategy employed by Anglicans. You still need the fake stories told by Kukiri sayyip to mislead the people.

    Menezis was just in Kerala for a couple of months and all the Christians of Kerala was not so fragile to be under Jesuit missionaries for some sixty years if they did not want. The 84 Churches which makes some 70% of the Christians of Kerala in Seventeenth century still exist as a Single Church with their old liturgy, traditions and practices. I know fakes like you talk about Menezis for your infiltration and diminish the Catholic contribution. At the same time I know this is coming out of your inferiority complex. Anyways what you deserve is an apology from Anglicans. It has nothing to do with Catholics .

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  117. Dear Johny Kuriakose,
    Thanks for your comments. I have no hatred toward Catholics. Being a teacher, I do appreciate the great contributions Catholics provided all over India. More than that the sincere obedience you show toward your authority is highly appreciable. But the truth will be truth always. You have mentioned in your comment.
    “Then to fool the people priest Ittithomman kathanar stole a letter written by Pope (written in latin) from Thodupuzha church and read it in many churches as if it is a letter written by Pope to ordain mar thoma as a Bishop (actually it was not such a letter) to convince the people, since the people regarded Pope as the head of the Universal church (Catholic church). ”

    Could you please provide the details from where you are quoting it? I would like to get the details regarding it.

    Have you read the wordings of Coonan cross? Please read it, if you have not read it. You can see what was the attitude of Kerala Christians from their words to the Universal church (Catholic church).

    In Christ,
    Aji Matthew

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  118. Dear Varghese Mani

    I agree with you to some extent. “The streets of any great world city now throng with an extra ordinary diversity of ethnic types. Yet research suggests that every one of them- indeed, everybody on the planet- has inherited a small piece of genetic material (mitochondrial DNA), from one women who lived over 190,000 years ago in Africa.” That means we can trace our ancestry to Eve not Adam.

    Bible says we all are like Adam born of flesh living for the sole purpose of responding to our five senses without any consideration for the neighbor. The tree on the middle represents that. (If you live selfishly you will die.) The tree of life represents that you can have everything but always consider your neighbor also. When you feel hungry you can eat but not the food stole from your neighbor but by working for it. You can have sex but only with your wife, not with your neighbor’s wife or mother or daughter or sister, and so on. This will give you eternal life. God’s will is always “love your neighbor as thyself”.

    Our flesh is always selfish. Paul says, for what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

    Jesus says, John 3-5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be bon again.’

    Kingdome of god is within you. It is not beyond the Universe but it is a state of mind that enable you to love your neighbor, love your enemy, and so on. Jesus came to the world to propagate the gospel of the kingdom of heaven which He says is within you.

    He explained it in His Sermon on the Mount, many parables and discourses. Yes you must have a change of Heart. Baptism also mean a change. It represents a change of heart. The act of baptism or any other sacraments alone will not do but real change will be necessary.

    When I was talking about Jesus’ Gospel to a Hindu friendin north India,he told me ‘It is a way of life and not a religion”. Very true.

    Christianity is a way of life and not a religion. But Church leaders made it a religion.

    A senior friend of mine told me “ had jesus be born in a Brahmin family he would have worn a poonool, follow all the customs of Brahmins, but at the same time he would have reprimanded them of their hypocrisy, and propagate the gospel of the Kingdom of God/heaven. He would have stressed Love your enemy. (Sthyagraham only.)

    Mahathma Read Tolstoy’ s book Kingdom of God is within you’ that helped him follow Jesus. To inherit heaven you need not follow sacraments of Christian church. But follow Jesus. Dr. Stanly johns once spoke in Maramon Convention “ Heaven without Mahathma is poor. I heard it.

    The Kingdom of Good is within you, in your heart. Not in your DNA. Cohen or otherwise.

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  119. I am totally confused now. Totally. Can someone help me?

    1. If all Nasranis in Kerala were Chaldean Catholics from the days of Mar Yahballaha, why did Archbishop Alexis Menezes want to set the house in order? A Catholic Archbishop was trying to Catholicise people who were already Catholics?

    2. Where can I read up on Mar Yahballaha?

    And, someone said Vellala chettys are sudras. In Tamil Nadu, they go by the surname Pillai and are a thriving and much respected community. A well-educated community, they have produced quite a few great names. My principal at the Madras Christian College, Dr Alexander Mantramurthi, was a Vellala, I think.

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  120. “Varghese: What is wrong with Syro Malabar Church if you compare with any of the Indian Christian communities.”

    I agree, but only when you compare with other Nasrani Churches. But we should be better. We are an independent reeth (sui iuris) under Catholic Church, but we are not using that freedom. We should preserve our identity. Catholicism is undeniably Apastolic, ancient and one of the most traditional (truely orthodox in practices), but we have some fundamental flaws in the theology, most importantly we dont use the 10 commandments as they were originally. We have well evolved theology, but that has led to practices/beliefs like limbo, purgatory, not allowing full burial rights for sinners, etc . Also traditionally we Nasranis never allowed any idols in churches, except the Cherubims. Now people are more often turning to idolatry. Idols shouldnt be allowed, at least in the sanctuary.

    Winning converts isnt great when the Church fails to lead the existing followers in the true MARGAM.
    See nasranifoundation.org for some known issues with in the church about latinization, not having permission to setup parishes outside kerala etc..

    thanks

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  121. Dear Aji,

    I dont know what to say. You seems to be heavily indoctrinated, probably by someone. I am not blaming anyone as a persons views can be influenced by his past and you yourself mentions about being a communist.

    Yes! We can agree or disagree, but agreeably. As you thinks I am not an ardent fan of Catholicism or any ism. What I believe is a little bit different, my own theology which is mostly self developed (I was lucky not to have/take any formal catechism which leaves me to be unbiased), but my theology is mostly Catholic ( i dont have any exposure to orthodox/Jacobite theology anyway). To be honest I believe Catholicism is the best religious platform for a Christian. (Also to me Christianity isnt a religion). I had in my previous posts criticized the catholic church, so I dont know why you see a hardcore catholic in me.
    Also I havent been to a church for almost 2months I believe. So you knows what sort of a Catholic I am.

    Now about your opinion that I should tell the pope to apologize, definitely I dont have any problems in taking that opportunity if I would ever have it. And I am pretty confident that the Pope would be more than willing to do that as he is a man of humility and understanding. He hasnt done it till date, may be he isnt aware of it. But I am just a house rat (Nocheli), and how would I get to such a position to have such a discussion ? I didnt say that the priests were polygamists before the Synod of Diamper. You have unfortunately merged two decrees. Polygamy was practised by the laity and and the priests werent celibate.

    I am happy that you yourself has explained why celibacy is better for the priests with reference to different cases. (Chepat/Konat malpans, Popes being married, Sr.Abhaya).

    Now, you have every right to standby what you believe. But if you are wrong somewhere, let me correct you. 1. I dont know what happens in a convent. I had never been to one, except to visit my Nursery school teacher who is leading a retirement life. How did you arrive in to such a conviction ? Why did you stereotype people ?. Sad that you dont know about Mother Theresa, another nun who also lived (and setup many) convents. Even more saddened that you forgot about Sr. Rani Maria. What is your opinion about these people ?

    Now about the survey you wants me to conduct, let me ask you why would I take such a survey ? What is my profit from that ? Have you ever taken such a survey ? then with what authority do you speak like this? How do you judge people from outside ?

    Have you ever heard about Fr. Benedict ? Madatharuvi Murder Case ? A Catholic priest who spent 12 years behind the bars for a crime he didnt commit ? 4-5 Movies were produced in kerala about this case. If you dont know about it, then ask some one and depolarize your brain. The Syro Malabar Church has some 15000 clergy, which is a great multitude. Just as in every community, there could be people who are bad. But to stereotype the entire community for one or two persons deeds is bad. Understand that these are also men, alive and having all organs and glands as we do.

    As an Ex-Communist, you are better placed to reach God. Pray to him for wisdom and understanding (or atleast one). Vivekananda was a great soul, with wisdom and understanding. Be prudent in what you speak and what you perceive. “Nothing that goes in to the mouth makes a man unclean, but what goes out of the mouth does”. This is what Christ said about being prudent in what you speak. Not surprising that many here see you as an imposter, a fake.

    “He forgave my sins, healed my sicknesses, delivered from every bondage and blessed”.
    Aji, I have to ask you why are you still in bondage ? I am asking you about the polarization in your view of this world. You seems to make a lot of assumptions about people whom you dont know personally and goes on to criticize others. You finishes by ‘in christ’ but what you said before is definitely not that. I believe you are a good soul, but needs to be a polished. Please find time to read Matthew 7:4.
    Please understand that you dont have the power to judge people. “Judge you not, lest you be judged” is what the Christ says to us. Read John 8:7 “Let him who is without sin among you ibe the first to throw a stone at her”

    Now about what you believe, I am not going to correct you on any of those except “Christ was against Priests” – That is not true. Priesthood was set by the God. Christ criticized their corrupt practices.

    Aji, be wise like the three wise monkeys . “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil”

    Take heed that no one decieve you. – Mathew 24:4
    Be wise like serpants and innocent as doves – Mathew 10:16

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  122. “Even Catholic historians do not justify the vandalism of Menesis”

    Aji, Can we not forgive this man ? Unfortunately we cant go back to the past to correct him. Time machines are are just fictional only. He lived nearly 5 centuries ago. Let him be judged by the Christ. Not good that you carry a lot of unwanted old luggage. Throw some out of your ship for a smooth sail. I apologize for him.

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  123. “Instead of fighting each other we should try to unite under a common church”

    Dear Johny,

    This seems to be possible in the near future. (only about the non-protestant Churches – Catholic & Orthodox). Orthodox Churches are already in communion with each other. The problem with the catholic-orthodox union is the higher-achy with in the union, between the Inheritors of the Roman Empire – Rome and Russian Orthodox(Eastern Roman Empire – Byzentium).

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  124. “I am totally confused now. Totally. Can someone help me?”

    Of course. I do apologize for putting you on such a misery. It was me who put the Vellalla Chetty thesis on board. I am afraid the Knas would arrange a lynch mob to send me back to Mars.

    Please read “http://www.sishri.org/velir.html”. This clearly states who the vellalars are. They are just like the Nair/Pillais, A community of those who were Born out of wedlock( from the 3rd century onwards eventually becoming the power brokers by the12 century). Vellalars are today some 20 Million in numbers, not surprising if they have managed to produce quite a few great people. (We Nasranis are just 38-42 Lakhs only. So we arent second to anyone.

    The above mentioned paper is much informative. Would give you a good idea of the Tamil History.
    Also wiki vellallar.

    Now about your question #1,
    Even though the Church of East was in communion with the Holy See, It was an orthodox church. Now the Nasranis were overseen by the COE, but they allowed us to keep all our unorthodox practices, which were on the other hand limited to our Civil life. (Our Liturgy was almost the same as that of COE – I may be wrong here). Since the COE never corrected us, we had many practices which were unacceptable to the Portuguese and the Catholic Church in general. See that Churches in communion with the Holy See are given independence in many matters even though we aren’t aware of/using that.

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  125. Dear Georgekutty,

    Thank you for posting about Mar Yahballaha. Can I assume that you are a Clergyman ?
    I have a question about this association b/w COE-Catholic Church. I knows that the Orthodoxy and Catholicism split for ever in the 10th century after some controversial events inside the Haggia Sophia. So why did the COE got back in to communion with the Catholic Church ? Did it split with the Byzantium ?

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  126. Dear all,

    Now I know from where the word Achan came from and why the Hindus (Nairs & Ezhavas) use it address their Dads. Achan is from Tamil – meaning “preceptors of martial arts”.

    Ref: http://www.sishri.org/velir.html

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  127. Aji Mathew: What wordings of Coonan Cross Oath are you talking about ? Can you post it ? I hope it has some source and that’s not Kukiri Sayippu. Provide the source and if possible a copy so that readers can evaluate. If you have some stories told by Kurkiri Sayippu don’t waste time on that.

    Most of your posting are nonsense. I don’t care on what you believe. Its up to you. But do not throw stones while sitting in a glass house. You seem to have really enjoyed blaming Catholics for all the problems Anglicans created among the Puthencore. Most of your Anglican missionaries preached in Puthencore churches which were either reconstructed or constructed by Portuguese !!

    If 84 Churches and Communities can stay together in Catholic Church why the 32 Churches which were under Arkadiyakon could not stay united after the help ( What a help ?) of British ?

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  128. Dear Varghese

    In case of Syro Malabar the comparison has to be made with other Indian Christian communities or other Eastern Churches . There is nothing wrong with Syro Malabar. Catholic theology is not Orthodox, it has evolved over time.It will be in future also. I don’t think any one can say Catholics don’t practice 10 commandments. Purgatory, Statutes are all part of the Catholic evolution and that’s not idolatry . There is some difference between latin rite churches and other eastern catholic churches in their views of Purgatory and Statutes. So its essentially up to the independent individual churches to have their own view based on their theology and tradition. I don’t think there is much point in complaining being a Catholic, as its up to the individual churches to have their own views.

    I dont think there is anything wrong with the Margam, Syro Malabar leads its faithful. A church is meaning less if it can t spread the gospel. Syro Malabar is doing good in that aspect. It should be the ideal way to measure a church.

    COE was split with universal church ( catholic-orthodox) in fifth century. The great schism of 11th century was between Catholic and Orthodox Church. Even though there have been not much continuous formal communion after the split in 5th century there have been communion with Catholic Church and Church of East in between. Patriarch Mar Yahballaha’s palium I posted is proof for one of those communions. I am not any clergy. I am just one who reads here and make occasional comments.

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  129. Regarding Post : 53056

    Dear Aji,

    1. It is true that there were christines inmkerala from the very beginning of the christine erra.
    2. There is no solid evidence except the claims of nasranis that they are christines converted by thoma sliha. This is not a new claiming but its a very old and centuries back claiming. You can see that the arkadeakon said the same thing during the synode of diamper that ” Njangal Mar Thomayude chollum vazhipadum anusarichu jeevikkunnavar anu”. And atleast from the 3rd centuries onwards the world wide christine communities agreeing that St. Thomas came and preached gospel in India. Ok it is true that there is no solid proof to say that he came to kerala but only some possibilities that there are jews in the 1st century AD in kerala and there existed a strong spice rout between kerala and the other world. Also we can assume that there were several christian jews also migrated to kerala from persia and other semitic areas and lived happily here in kerala. Also one more important thing which everybody are forgotten to mention. There was a strong migrations to kerala from the north india also. It was not only the brahmins but other communities also. So it is possible that the north indian christines who were also called as st. thomas christines also migrated to kerala. I said only possibilities. Also as we know that there was jews in the early centuries AD in kerala it is also possible that St. Thomas came to kerala to preach the good news between these jews. But the story of st. thomas converting brahmins is some what confusing since the brahmins came to picture in kerala during the chola invansion and the second chera invansion inmkerala (ie, 6th to 8th century). But there the hystorians also mesure that there was a migration of brahmins individually and they lived in full communion with the then existed social situations. They says it is only in 6th and 8th century AD that a vast migration of brahmins took place and they classed people vranas.
    3. It is true that kerala christines stood as an independent church under the arkadeakons from pakalomattom familly atleast from the 6th-7th century AD onwards. The kerala nasranis were not under any external church but only kept an eccumenical relationship with the church of the east . This eccumenism was only in the case of ordaining a new priest, giving Mammodisa, and to do the mooron abhishekam of a new church. When ever the necessity comes a letter will send to the church of east and they will send a bishop to do these things and we used to give some present ( encient terms ” Kandu Kazhcha”) to them. Thats it.
    4. It is your wrong idea that there was no priestlyhood in kerala until Vascodagama. It was there. I am not saying that st. thomas came and ordained priests in 1 century AD. But there was priests in kerala in later centuries. Yes, there was a lack of bishops or localite bishops in nasranis since the arrival of portuguees. We never wanted a native bishop post here. But we also welcomed the bishops coming from the other shore of the see and honoured them. But it doesnot means that we were under them. Till the arrival of portuguees we used to read the gospel of Mathew mostly. we dont have the complete bible in earlly times .
    and whatever is there it was in syriac known as Peshitta( syriac Bible) so that normal people cannt read it. The bible became common in a houses after the protestent missionaries only.
    5. It is true that catholics got root only after the portuguees. It is clearilly mensioned in the letter send by the then ruled visroyee to the King Manual of portugal that ” we found a group of christines claims to be converted by st. thomas and were enjoys the various rights given by the ruling hindu caste and they were accepted as a part of the hindu cast. The head of these christines is an archdeacon. ” This shows the portuguees were unaware about a christine group here in india. The catholic church of rom may,maynot be knows this thing, but it is fact that the portuguees were unaware about it.
    6. It is true that the church of antioch got root in kerala only after the synod of diamper. It was since then when there existed a situation that the portuguees didnot allowed any bishops from church of the east to reach here in kerala. But this relationship with church of antioch is also doesnot means that we were under them. It was only after the synod of mulanthuruthi inwhich the orthodox christines( both jacobyte and orthodox) accepted the patriarch of antioch as the supreme head which was held in the 19th century.
    Till then it was like a friendly relationship and the syrian orthodox church of antioch was always happy to help us.

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  130. Dear goergekutty,

    By the presence of the chaldean catholic bishops in kerala during the synode of udayamperoor ( synod of diamper) is not showing that the kerala nasranis are under the catholic church or under the chaldean catholic church. We used to accept bishops from the other shore of the sea without regarding the church or faith they are following. There were many bishops from Church of the east, syria, etc. There also evolved situations that our priest got ordained by a bishop who was not from church of the east and the church of the east disqualified the ordination since the bishop was not from persia. So it was our mentality that we accepted any bishop who crosses the sea and comes here in kerala. But we always stood as the independent church even from the church of the east. With the church of the east we had only maintained eccumenical relationships not we were under them. Whenever any necessity like ordaining a priest or giving mommodeesa to a believer ( in ancient times only bishops are allowed to give mammodeesa), etc. and the appostolic church will respond. We will give kandukazhcha to the bishop who comes from the church of the east and send him happily. Apart from that we never allowed them to control us. It was after the portuguees only there evolved a situation for the part of the nasranis known as arkadeakons party to ordain a bishop and they ordained the then arkadeakon as marthoma 1st by the laying hands of 12 priests which was not canonical. It was due to this problem only we went to the syriac orthodox church of antioch .
    Also nobody cannt say that the portuguees didnot harm the kerala christines and it was the protestent tried to harm them. Because both used different tactics in making the kerala nasranis under their bishops. The portuguees used a brudal way while the protestents tried to approach the situation wisely by first making friendship and by eat it completelly as they were supposed to help us. But towards both the situations the nasranis stood up which ended in the coonen cross oath against portuguees and rom ( eventhough they succeded in making a part of the nasranis as their part) , and through the mavlikkara padiyola against the protestents or the anglican church.

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  131. Dear Abrubs…

    You made a good point. It is true that the persian culture ia somewhat like north indian brahminical culture.
    Because the ariyans are also from iran province. There are relations between the zorashtriyan religion believes and the vedic believes and the mithra believes. You can see some gods are common in both zorastriyan and vedic hindu religions like indra, agni, varuna, etc. Hystorians also says that there was the migration of brahmins to kerala happened in the 6th-8th century AD and after that only the vedic caste seperation started in kerala. They also says that there was individual and independent migrations that took place even in the ending of the BC erra but they lived in communion with the local people. So it is possible that vegetarianism came to christins in this way also. Another important point to notice is that christines, means syrian christines of kerala were allowed to come near to barhmin and the sudhamakkal function took place within brahmins and christine only. If christines were non-vegetarians in the ancient times the namboodiris known as the most orthodox brahminical caste who strictly practices vegetarianism will not allow christines to come near them…

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  132. Dear Mathew T george,

    The church of the east went in communion with the catholic church doesnot means that the kerala church or karala nasranis also go under the catholicsm since we have only an eccumenical relationship with the Church of the East. I dont know why all forgets/ skip the word eccumenical relationship or no one clearlly studies about our relationship with Church of the East. It was purelly eccumenical and we were not completelly under them. It was arkadeakon who was like a prince for the nasranis like azhvancheri thambrakkal for the kerala brahmins. We request the COE for help whenever a neccessity like ordaining of a priest, giving mamodeesa, koodasha of the church,etc. occures and we go to them only to learn the biblical parts and other practices we should perform while qurbana. Apart from that we dont have any much relationships with them. Yes, its true that there was several bishops who migrated to malabar from the holy sees and we welcomed them and honoured them. The bishops represented India or kerala doesnot mean that they can take care of our internal matters or they can control our lives. No, for the internal issues there was arkadeakon whome we believed to take proper decisions.

    Also Mr. Georgekuty mentioned about Mor Yabhallaha who declare complete union with rom, then why the church split in to two on later centuries, Chaldean Catholic church which is completely in union with rom and Assyrian Church of the east which is not…

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  133. Dear Mr. Goergekutty…

    You are cleaverilly trying to state that the kerala nasranis were catholics even before the portuguees …
    As Mr. Mathew T George asked I am also asking you what was the necessity for the portuguees to convert the nasranis in to catholicsm who were already catholics?

    If the church of the east was completelly went in communion with the rom then why it split into two: chaldean catholic church and assyrian church of the east. The split shows that even though Mar yahballaha appealed the COEs communion with rom, there existed rebels also which in turn split the church into two. You also mensioned about the presence of chaldean catholic bishops in kerala before the synode of diamper. I believe you are speaking about Mar John Sulagha under whome the catholic communion church got splited from the COE and became known as the chaldean catholic church in AD 1551. The presence of Mar Sulagha doesnot means that the nasranis were catholic…

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  134. Dear Varghese Mani,
    Thanks for your comments.
    Let me state my views which you have commented. Your words are given first and then my response.
    You consider To be honest I believe Catholicism is the best religious platform for a Christian. (Also to me Christianity isn’t a religion). I have the difficulty to believe because of the crimes they did against other Christians and religions from fourth century to sixteenth century.
    I am happy that you yourself have explained why celibacy is better for the priests with reference to different cases. (Chepat/Konat malpans, Popes being married, Sr.Abhaya). Please do not interpret my words wrongly. I have the view that as the LORD says, those who have the gift can be celibacy otherwise forcing or banning marriage is of the doctrine of spirit. Regarding Sr.Abhaya, why don’t you suggest as “Catholicism is the best religious platform” to say the truth behind the cold blood murder of a poor girl? If Catholics are really honest, please tell who killed Sr.Abhaya, so we can avoid all the cases in the court.
    But if you are wrong somewhere, let me correct you. 1. I dont know what happens in a convent. But I know what happens in the convent. The nuns have all kinds of films the other films in their possessions. They have boy friends. I am stating it with clear proof, not accusing.
    But to stereotype the entire community for one or two persons deeds is bad. I have not portrayed the community but mentioned of the hypocrisy catholics are doing in the name of celibacy. There are many who practice celibacy without becoming priests in all communists. We are not condemning.
    Not surprising that many here see you as an imposter, a fake. This is what the Pharisees and Saducees told about Jesus. I get what Jesus got for telling the truth. Father, forgive them for they do not know what they do.
    Aji, I have to ask you why are you still in bondage ? I am very thankful to God who delivered me from the bondage of priesthood which you are under.
    Please understand that you dont have the power to judge people. I do not judge people. But as long as the government of India gave me freedom to express my view, I can say. Let God, the righteous judge, judge me and everyone.
    I am not going to correct you on any of those except “Christ was against Priests” Please, read Matthews gospel Chapter 23. Can’t you find the similarities between your priests and Pharisees and Sad u sees?
    You finishes by ‘in Christ’ I am using in Christ because20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.John 5:20
    Thanks a lot.
    In Christ,
    Aji Matthew

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  135. Aji Mathew: The objective of this forum is explained in the About section. Many of your posts do not contribute anything towards the objectives of this forum. This forum is not a venue to make untruthful accusations against any Church. We do not want to degrade the forum by allowing these kinds of posts. If you have any details on the Abhaya case, please contact the investigative agency or the Kottayam Knanaya Catholic Diocese. If there are any complaints about any of the hundred thousand Syro Malabar institutions, please contact the particular institutions complaint section. These kind of defamation are not encouraged here.

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  136. Really sad that many among us are still stuck in the 16th Century. Many have extreme hatred towards the Catholic Church and the Portuguese. We should be thankful to the Portuguese for the prosperity that our state, especially our community is enjoying today – the Rubber, Cashew and Nutmeg all were brought to our land by the Portuguese, not to mention our favourite dish – Kappa.
    So if you thinks that your spiritual life was compromised because of the Portuguese inquisition, relax. They have made at least some material contribution to your lives (a lasting & lifting one).

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  137. Dear Philip Mathai,

    Thank you for your post. You have made some good observations. Now, a few more points
    Tree of life – It has multiple meanings (these verses are multi dimensional ).
    God brought out Eve as a companion for Adam. The tree of life is also the tree of Wisdom (as in the Vedas – Bhavishya Purana). There was no death then. But the serpent says ‘If you eat this your eyes will be opened and you will be like God’. See that God made Adam in his own likeliness. “Let us make man in OUR OWN IMAGE”

    Now read Psalm 51 “In sin did my mother conceive me”. The psalmist here is David.
    So the natural Question here is what sin did Jesse’s wife did ? Was not David the son of Jesse ? Of course. No question about it. Now see that Mariam and Yohannan (John the Baptist) were all born in a sinless manner – They were all born when their parents were too old (not from human strength, but by the Grace of God).

    Now go back to what the serpent said “Your eyes will be opened. You will be like God”. Today Man is continuing the act of creation (from what God had already made), but with in the limits set by the creator. “Seek and You shall find”. God made Adam in his own image and expected obedience from him and his companion.

    This is probably the Catholic Church is asking the Ecclesiastes to be celibate. (Can the blind lead the blind. Shall they not both fall in to the pit). Christ was man in fullness, but never married. Few apostles were married by Christ says “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God”. None among them had any of their family with them when they went for preaching the Kingdom of heaven. These are the ones who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Paul says ‘It is better to be married if the lusts in you are keeping you aflame”. How ever it is to be noted that Procreation is not sinful, but Gods gift. It is your attitude that can be sinful.

    Also on your observations about ‘Baptism’, I have similar views. Again ‘born of Water and Spirit’ is not about the Physical (symbolic) baptism that we take. When you take the baptism of spirit, you will have the gifts of the Holy spirit. “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they..”. Those who says they are born again, they dont understand what it means. But the baptism of spirit need not be receiving of the Holy spirit alone. God gave 7 commandments to Noah, applicable to all his generations. These are the fundamental laws, written on to every human heart. If you live by it, no matter whether you are a believer or not you will enter the kingdom of heaven. This covers the entire humanity. (except those who deny the act of Holy spirit {Crucification}, purposefully ). God is graceful and accepting us in what we are. The sinner who was crucified at the right is the symbol of our hope. Salvation is only by grace. You have no claims to it.

    And there is nothing more divine on this planet than our souls and body. Samuel 2 says about this. The Holiest of the Holies – the Arc of the Covenant was taken away by the Phillistians when God wasnt in it. (when the people had no place for God in their hearts)

    “Heaven without Mahathma is poor. I heard it.” – not just a a catching quote, but very truthful. Christianity is in your heart. A Christian is one who follows the path of Christ. Seemingly Gandhi was one.
    Gandhi even said ‘Christ I like you, but not these Christians” (those who says they are).

    And in my observation (actually my experience) you can even be an atheist but still be saved – I have a senior colleague who has the powers of spirits. He says he dont know whether God exists, but the Mantra is the same – humility, compassion, being true to your heart, no greed for any material substance, and the rest of the laws as we know them. He says he knows 6 people of the kind, Christians and Buddhists. And I personally knows 6 such persons. 2 priests, 3 laity (a doctor, a retired Govt servant and a farmer), all are Catholics + this Atheist man.

    Sorry if I am preaching too much.

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  138. Dear Varghese

    The 32 churches which where with the Arkadiyakon in Seventeenth century did exist as ONE Church and stayed together with out much trouble until the arrival of British. It was not the Portuguese who destroyed them. It was the British. The Puthecore is still living in lies. Under the Anglican British missionaries influence and strategy they are now split in to many : Orthodox, Jacobite, Independent, Marthoma etc.

    Marthoma Church was even split in to Evangelical in its over 100 years of existence. Whom do they blame for this ? The Catholics or the Anglican Protestants ?

    Each one of them being so small is still having very difficulty to keep their people together. It is Kukiri Sayipp who destructed them and still they propagate the lies told by Kukiri Sayipp. What right they have to critize and blame Catholics for the destruction done by Anglicans ?

    Portuguese spread the gospel in India. 2 % of the Indian population are Christians thanks to the Portuguese. The very big Syro Malabar Church ( 84 of the 116 pre Portuguese churches) is small in front of the latin Church in India. There are no divisions, no splits in latin church in India which has an existence of at least six centuries.

    Look at the Anglican created churches in India ( the different Protestant Groups). I cant even count how many times they split in their decades of existence. The problem in Puthencore is the lies told as history and the extreme protestantisation and it has nothing to do with Catholics.

    The Lebaneese example may be repeated in Kerala in future. At that time none of these stories are going to help the Christians of Kerala to survive. There is nothing one can achieve by these fighting and trying to steal others believers. If there are real missionaries, either Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, they should be ready to suffer and evangelize than taking short cuts of nonsense bashings.

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  139. Dear Mathew T George

    Regarding Patriarch Mar Yahballaha communion with Catholic Church:

    In 1287, Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III send his profession of faith to Pope Nicholas IV. In 1302, the Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III send another document to Pope Bonafice VIII.

    Please see the second document in the following link :

    http://www.2shared.com/photo/eEfp0e-m/Pallium_of_Mar_Yahballah.html

    Here is my translation:

    The letter is written in black vegetable ink. On the lower part is the symbol of Church of East “ the universal cross”. First five lines are written in Syriac. Following is the translation. “ In the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit. Amen. To our most holy father and lord Bonafice: the unworthy and humble Yahballaha, who by the grace of our lord Jesus Christ has been elected Catholicos and Patriarch of Orient, ask your holiness to bless him. The rest of the document is written in Arabic except the last line.

    What is the confusion in this ?

    The Church of East split with the universal Catholic – Orthodox Church in fifth century due to political reasons ( political reasons of the kings). But there were a number of Patriarchs who were in communion with Rome in Church of East. There were also a number of Catholics in Mesapotomia following the East Syriac liturgy. There were even Popes from those communities.

    St. Isaac was Bishop of Ninaveth in 593. Sahaduna Bishop of Garmea, of the Church of East was received in the communion With the Catholic Church in 630 . There was a Union of Church of East Bishops of Capadocia, Media,

    Persia and both Armenia in the year 945. The Catholic Union of Church of East and Armenians took place in 1145.

    Patriarch Mar Yahballaha III was in communion with Rome and hence his Church and the Thomas Christians who were hierarchically subordinated to the Church of East were Catholics.

    The Chaldean Catholic Church was formed in 1552 with Patriarch John Sulacca as the Catholic Chaldean Patriarchof Babylon. What I posted is before that. As the documents prove that before Patriarch John Sulacca, Patriarchs of Church of East entered in to communion with Rome.

    The documents as yet discovered in the Vatican Archives prove at least that Mar Sabar – Jesu Mar Makika and Mar Yahballaha III, ALL Church of East Patriarchs where in communion with Rome. Mar Timotheus, the Church of East Archbishop of Cyprus was received into the communion of Rome by Pope Eugene IV, in 1445.

    These are not Kukiri Sayipp stories. These are simple truth with documentary proof.

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  140. Dear Johnsy

    What nonsense is this ecumenical relationship ? History need to studied keeping in my mind of the situations of the past. The Second Vatican Council did not happen in fifth century. The world council of churches did not even exist some decades earlier. Does the Syro Malabar believers say they have an ecumenical relationship with their head Major Arch Bishop Mar Alenchery ? Does the Kottayam and Kollam diocese in Indian Orthodox Church say they have an ecumenical relationship with Baselios Mar Thoma Paulose II ? What they say is there is a hierarchical relationship as the head has authority to ordain priests and other things.

    Ecumenical relationship and hierarchical relationship are different. The Jacobites and Catholics have very good ecumenical relationship. It doesnot mean that Jacobite can ordain Catholic priests or vice versa . Jacobites has is no authority on Catholic priests or parishes. Hence it is only an ecumenical relationship with each other.

    Saint Thomas Christians had hierarchical relationship with Church of East and later on with Chaldean Catholic Church. This is simple fact.

    When the Portuguese arrived in India in 1504, the hierarchy of Church of Saint Thomas Christians consists of a Metropolitan and three suffragan Bishops. Mar Yahballaha (Jaballaha) was the metropolitan. Mar Denah, Mar Jacob and Mar John were the Bishops. They were here in Malabar send by their Patriarch, the Patriarch of the Church of East.

    In 1565, Angamaly was made a Metropolitan See. The first Synod at Angamaly was convoked in 1583 by Mar Abraham. Mar Abraham was the last Chaldean Metropolitan ( He was a Chaldean Catholic Metropolitan) who ruled the undivided Church of Saint Thomas Christians. He died in 1597 AD. Syond of Diamper was convoked after his death. So the Saint Thomas Christians were under Catholic Chaldeans before the Synod of Diamper. So they were Catholics. There is no scope of any discussion in this. All the Bishops in Malabar whom we have documentary proof such as those of 13th century and 15th and 16th century are only from the Church of East and later on the Catholic Chaldean Church.

    After the Syond of Diamper also for some sixty years all the Christians of Kerala were Catholics. Then only one third of the total Christians that is only 32 churches of the 116 Churches went in communion with the Antioch Syriac Orthodox Church. They were broken down in to different churches under the British destruction in later centuries.

    If some of the Thomas Christians denominations are living in lies having no courage to correct the lies they have spread, it is their problem. These ecumenical crap is a Protestant lie. Protestants where no where in picture and hence they don’t have any documents or any details about any of these things. They may be confusing themselves by looking at history with current set up of their World Council of Churches. I don’t care if the Protestants or any others have problem in accepting history.

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  141. There is nothing clever in stating that the Thomas Christians were Catholics before the Syond of Diamper. Protestants as well as Puthencore have to forgot about Kurkiri Sayippu stories if they have any real interest in history. Even the profession of faith of Mar Abraham, the last Chaldean Catholic Archbishop is available in Vatican Secret Archives. If Admin or anyone is interested in getting a copy let me know.

    Following are 19 documents which proves beyond doubt about the relationship in Malabar before 1600 AD ie, before the Syond of Diamper or before Menezis came to Malabar. Are there any questions ? I don’t care about those who still wants to live with their Kukiri Sayipp stories.

    1) A letter of Pope Pius IV dated 23 Feb. 1565, to Mar Abedjesus, Patriarch of Babylon, makes mention of Mar Abraham, the Chaldean Archbishop of the Syrians in Malabar, of his arrival, viz. in Rome, diligently warms him to divide the Malabar See and to assign this Mar Abraham a diocese and another to Mar Joseph giving each a definite residence that each one may thus recognize his own flock without interfering one with the other. This selfsame letter recommends to the Patriarch the Nuncio of the Apostolic See, lately sent hither with the view of reforming some ecclesiastical disciplinary points

    2) A letter of the same Pope Pius IV dated 28th. Feb. 1565, to the Archbishop of Goa written in praise of the aforesaid Mar Abraham heaps on him merits for his great reverence towards the Apostolic See, for his orthodox belief and integrity of life. The Pope again makes mention of the division of the Malabar See between Mar Joseph and Mar Abraham himself, and exhorts him (the Archbishop of Goa) to stick closely to what the Patriarch of Babylon shall ordain in respect of both, and see that his orders are carried out.

    3) Again Pope Pius IV in a letter dated 28 Feb. 1565, addressed to the Bishop of Cochin, strongly exhorts him to see that Mar Abraham is molested by nobody that he may safely and without any irksomeness live where his Patriarch has placed him, and that he may be enabled to administer the diocese assigned to him by his Patriarch free from all annoyance and obstacle.

    4) An exposition or proposal written in Italian and brought before the Holy See asks for the sacred Pallium for Mar Abraham, Archbishop of Angamale.

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  142. 5) The King of Cochin, writing to Pope Gregory XIII a letter dated Cochin 2 Jan. 1576 meant for recommending the Christians of St. Thomas to him, especially informed the Pope the oppressions that Mar Abraham suffered from the Portuguese. The King suppliantly beseeched the Pope to concede indulgences to the Church dedicated to Blessed Virgin Mary and erected by George the Archdeacon of Angamale

    6) A letter of Pope Gregory XIII sent to the King of Cochin by way of a reply under date 21st. December 1576 in which the Pope praises the King’s benevolence regarding the Christians and assures him that he would in no way tolerate the Portuguese to oppress Mar Abraham, and informs him that he has ordered to grant the indulgences requested by the Archdeacon George.

    7) Another letter of Pope Gregory XIII dated 21st Dec. 1576, to the Legate of the King of Cochin in which the Pope again praises the King’s benevolence regarding the Christians and he says that he has ordered the requested indulgences.

    8) A letter of the King of Cochin dated 6th January 1579 sent in reply to the one of Pope Gregory XIII in which the King expresses his joy on receiving the Pope’s reply and he assures the Pope that he would always favour the Christians as his Holiness commands.

    9) A petition (the author of the petition is supposed to be a Jesuit missionary) sent over to the Roman Pontiff in which the petitioner highly commends to the Pope the Archbishop, Mar Abraham and George the Archdeacon of Angamale earnestly beseeching him to recommend the above mentioned Prelates to the Kings of Portugal and Cochin and the Viceroy of Goa as well as to the ordinaries of the Latin Rite residing in India. The petitioner would moreover wish very much that the Holy Father grants a plenary indulgence to those who visit the Church of St. Hormisdas Abbot, recently constructed at Angamale by the said Mar Abraham and that Mar Abraham would be highly gratified if some spiritual consolation were given him according to the cravings of his heart.

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  143. Attn: Georgekutty

    This is way too complex for a simpleton like me.

    For the life of me, I can’t understand what Dom Menezes was doing here if we were already Catholics. My understanding is that Nasranis did not measure up to the brand of Christianity that he knew, and hence his attempt to ‘discipline’ us.

    if we were already Catholics, why the ‘disciplining’?

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  144. Attn: Varghese Mani

    Thanks so much. What you said makes perfect sense. That we were in communion with Rome, but autonomous with freedom to choose our way of worship. And Dom Menezes wanted to ‘purify’ us. That is logical.

    So, we were not actually Catholics like Mr Georgekutty says, correct?

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  145. My other posts did not come through. Posting the remaining part again…..

    10) The profession of faith drawn up by the same Mar Abraham when in Malabar in the year 1577, afterwards sent to the Sovereign Pontiff Gregory XIII.

    11) The chief men among the Syro-Malabar Christians in 1578, petitioning the Roman Pontiff, Gregory XIII, say that they from the primordial ages of the Christian era had their liturgical prayers from the Apostle St. Thomas in Syro-Chaldaic, that they were wont to receive their Bishops and Archbishops from the Assyrians of the East and that they had the orders of priesthood and deaconate from the same. On that account imploring the mercy of the Holy Father they pray that they may not be left orphans, but he may vouchsafe to give the necessary orders to the Patriarch of the Assyrians or Chaldeans, that he may without further delay send out Bishops according to the ancient custom. The petitioners make mention that Patriarch Abedjesus had sent them Mar Elia and Mar Joseph of whom the latter was kept in prison by the Portuguese. Therefore the Syrians requesting to the Patriarch Abedjesus, Mar Abraham was sent to them by the same Abedjesus who also was captured by the Portuguese at Goa

    12) Pope Gregory XIII by virtue of an indult under date 1st Dec. 1579, grants Mar Abraham the Archbishop of Angamale the faculty for dispensing with the obligation of restitution resulting from filthy lucre.

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  146. 13) A conjoined letter of the Chaldean Prelates sent in 1580, to Pope Gregory XIII, on the occasion of the election of Mar Simon Denaha as their Patriarch, contains many honorific titles for the Supreme Pontiff, whom they style openly as the Father and Head of all Christendom, Successor to Blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles and the Vicar of Christ upon earth. They moreover implore with deep respect and submission for themselves and for their faithful the blessings and prayers of the Holy Father

    14) Mar Elia, the Archbishop of Amida in the year 1580 had taken an account both of the Chaldean Church in Assyria and of the state of the Church in Malabar which he presented to the Holy Father, and the same year he had come to Rome as a representative of the Chaldeans for getting Mar Simon Denaha confirmed as their Patriarch and receiving the sacred Pallium for him

    15) Mar Abraham, Archbishop of Angamale, in his letter sent on the 13th Jan. 1584 to Pope Gregory XIII. informs him of the Synod convened by him, of the pride his subjects took of being in the Catholic faith, of the necessity of establishing there a new Seminary for the training up of youth for the sacred ministry, and of the necessity of increasing the number of the Jesuit fathers in that province. Lastly he left no stone unturned in order to have Mar Simeon, on whose account many disturbances had arisen among both clergy and laity, expelled as soon as possible from this country, which he actually executed with the advice and help of the Franciscan fathers. And Mar Abraham asks for the Pope’s confirmation to the election of the Archdeacon, George of Christ, as Bishop of Palur, Coadjutor and successor to him. This election was made by the power granted him (Mar Abraham) by the Assyrian Patriarch

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  147. 16) The letter of Pope Gregory XIII. dated 20th Nov. 1578, to the Archbishop of Goa is another one containing commends for Mar Abraham, Archbishop of Angamale, and the Pope commands the Archbishop of Goa that he might receive Mar Abraham in the Provincial Council of Goa with necessary fraternal charity and humanity.

    17) Another letter of Pope Gregory XIII. dated 29th Nov. 1578, to Mar Abraham, Archbishop of Angamale, in which the Pope exhorts Mar Abraham to work for the conversion of heathens with the help of Jesuit Fathers and not to be contented with the Faithful alone, and tells him to be present at the Provincial Council at Goa without any fear of oppression, injury or molestation by the Portuguese. The Pope assures him that he has ordered the Portuguese Prelates in India to receive him kindly and honorably: and the Pope expects them to do it justly.

    18)A letter by the same Pontiff Gregory XIII. dated 3rd Dec. 1578, to Henry, king of Portugal, is again in commendation of the Catholics living on the Malabar Coast as a whole and especially of the said Mar Abraham Archbishop of Angamale

    19) The same Pope Gregory XIII. directs a letter dated 5th March 1580, to the clergy and laity of the Christians of St. Thomas in Malabar admonishing them to guard themselves against a certain Simeon, who feigns himself to be lawful Bishop and exhorting to be obedient to their Prelates Mar Abraham the Archbishop of Angamale and George of Christ the Bishop of Palur.

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  148. Dear Georgekutty,

    In your Post : 53885 You qouted the letter of Mar Yaballah III to state that the church of the east was in fully communion with Rom and became the chaldean catholic church and so the malabar nasranis were catholics even before the Portuguees. You also gave the translation of the letter written by Mar Yaballaha III to Pop Benedict XI.

    Check out this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahballaha_III

    This states that yaballaha III send letter to rom addressing pop Benedict XI for the communion between both the churches. But this union was not took place . It was the Bishops (ie, Nestorian Bishops) refuted this union.

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  149. http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Chaldeans-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

    This site shows the efforts made by various patriarchs of church of the east. It shows each time the communion lasted for only a few years. It was during the time of Mar Sulaqa the Catholic supporting part of church of east officially took birth and named as Chaldean Church of the east.

    From this site we can clearlly se that there was always bishops which supported the union and bishops who were against it. So by the letter of Mar Yaballaha it is not necessary that the church of east was with full communion with rome before 1550 or it became chaldean catholic church before 1550. So we cannt say that the malabar nasranis were catholics before the portuguees. Also the letters to the pope or the repply from the pope doesnot shows that we were catholics before portuguees. It just shows that pope recognised us and was ready to help us.

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  150. Dear Varghese Mani,
    Thanks for the information. In fact I had seen those Google photos of Cochin Jewish cemetery before I wrote that post. I am truly amazed that the architectural similarities were not critically analysed earlier. I intend to post more comments on this in a future Post. Thanks once again.
    B.George.

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  151. When our delegation met the Hon’ble Chief Minister of Kerala Sri Oommen Chandy at his residence in Trivandrum with the humble request to grant a Hody Land Pilgrimage subsidy to Christians of all denominations and Churches from Kerala on the pattern of such subsidies given by other States like Andhra Pradesh he had asked us for greater details of those schemes which we were unable to provide at that time. Recently the various AP Govt. Depts.kindly placed at my disposal, during my stay in Hyderabad, the original GOs of the Ap Govt. , its Minorities Development Finance Corporation’s schemes, and the schemes of the AP Govt. Minorities’ Welfare Dept., in addition to the High Court’s Verdict vacating all stays to the implementation of the Pilgrimage subsidy scheme, which it would be useful to be studied by all interested in promoting the spiritual revival of our people by visiting the Holy land and environs.

    From
    Chev. Prof. George Menachery
    Chief Editor St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India
    Member Archdiocesan Pastoral Council
    Member Of the Governing Body Christian Chair, Calicut University
    Pallinada
    Ollur Kerala 680306
    09846033713, 04872352468, 04872354398
    [email protected],[email protected]
    http://www.indianchristianity.com, http://www.nazraney.com, http://www.menachery.org

    To
    Sri Oommen Chandy
    Honb’le Chief Minister of Kerala
    Thiruvananthapuram

    Respected Sir,

    We the representatives of the Nazraney Maha Kudumbayogam (Myself as President) had visited you at your residence and submitted a petition signed by the President, Secretary, Office Secretary, and Fr. K. M. George of the Pazhaya Seminary humbly requesting you to kindly grant a State subsidy to the Holy Land pilgrims from Kerala. At that time you had kindly consented to consider the the also the desire for setting up a St. Thomas University, to make arrangements for the protection and conservation of ancient Christian monuments, and to consider the Holy LandPilgrimage subsidy. However when you asked for details of such subsidies granted by other South Indian States we were unable to provide the details during such a short interview.

    I am herewith sending the copy of the AP Government Order granting Holy Land Pilgrimage Subsidy to the tune of Rs. 20,000/- per pilgrim.The detailed GO also lays down conditions for tour operators and parameters for the aselection of pilgrims. In the first year AP Govt. had set aside an amount of Rs. Two Crores for the purpose to subsidise the pilgrimage of 1000 pilgrims.

    This and the other exemplary schemes of the AP Minorities Development Finance Department are also enclosed.whichcould perhaps be followed by your honourable Goverment also.

    Also enclosed is the Court Judgement of the AP High Court setting aside all objections raised by interested parties against the granting of the said subsidy.

    We had also met in Trivandrum other ministers and legislators, including Sarvasri K. M. Mani, T.M. Jacob, P.J.Joseph, K.C. Joseph, Abdl Rabb, and the MLAs C.F.Thomas, Mons Joseph, Ravindranath, M. P. Vincent and C. who all expressed their support and goodwill for all these efforts, and many had also asked for copies of the AP GO which I was able to procure from the AP Ministry in Hyderabad recently.

    Awaiting your government,s kind and favorable response and action,

    Yours faithfully,
    Prof. George Menachery.

    Copy to: Hon’bleMinister Sri K. M. Mani
    Sri Abdul Rubb
    Sri. T. M. Jacob
    Sri P. J. Joseph
    Sri K. C. Joseph

    Copies also to Sri P. C.George
    C. F. Thomas
    Mons Joseph
    Prof. Ravindranath
    M. P. Vincent
    & Other Hon’ble Minsters and Legislators we could not meet on that occasion.

    Copy of letters recd. From AP with copies of AP GO on Subsidy to Holy Land Pilgrims and High Court Order setting aside all objections to proceeding with the Holy Land Pilgrimage Subsidies and also Summary of Schemes of the AP Govt. Minorities Welfare Finance Corporation and AP Govt Minorities Welfare Department.

    Dear Prof.George Menachary,

    Just a short note to send you the attached GO concerning the Holy Land
    Pilgrimage for Christians of Andhra Pradesh.

    All the best for your efforts to get similar benefits to the
    Christians in Kerala.

    With warmest regards,

    Dr.Jetti A.Oliver

    JAO/kbm

    Dear Prof. George Menachery,

    Hope you had a safe travel back home. This note is to send you the
    attached copy of the judgment of the AP High Court lifting the ban on
    pilgrimage of Christians to the Holy Land duly sponsored by the
    Minority Welfare Department of the Govt. of A.P0. Attached also are
    a few paper clippings as desired.

    With warmest regards,

    Dr.Jetti A.Oliver

    JAO/kbm

    Copy of the petition personally handed over to your good selves at the Chief Minister’s residence, Trivandrum by the Mar Thoma Nazraney Maha Kudumbayogam:

    Petition made by the delegates empowered by the extraordinary conference of the St. Thomas Maha Kudumbayogam and invited scholars held at Kuruvilangad on 3rd July, 2011 to the Hon’bleChief Minister of Kerala Sri Oommen Chandy Esq.:, Thiruvananthapuram.

    Hon’ble Chief Minister, Sir,

    We the delegates of the St. Thomas Maha Kudumbayogam and representatives of the scholars and cultural activists of the various Nazraney Christian Denominations take this opportunity to bring to your attention the incomparable record of service rendered by these Thomas Christian Communities to the people of Kerala in the fields of culture, education, and social service and to request you and your respected Government to kindly take the initiative to implement and realise the following :

    1. To establish a University in the name of St. Thomas the Apostle of Christ who was the founder of the Christian Faith adhered to by the lakhs and lakhs of members of the Syro Malabar Church, the Syrian Orthodox Church, the Jacobite Syrian Church, the Mar Thoma Church, the Syro Malankara Church, the Chaldean Church and many other Churches and denominations of Kerala, on the pattern of the Sri Sankara Sanskrit University of Kalady or the Mahathma Gandhi University of Kottayam.

    2. To allow a pilgrim grant and/or subsidy to all Christians of Kerala, irrespective of sect or denomination or rite desirous of making a Pilgrimage to the places associated with Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament and the Venerable Fathers of the Old Testament in the Holy Land to promote spirituality and true religious fervour.

    3. To instruct the Departments of Archaeology and Tourism to protect, conserve, and popularise all the different Jewish and Christian Monuments in the State, including the Megalithic monuments..

    Yours faithfully,
    1. Rev. Dr. K.M. George., Old Seminary, Kottayam
    2. Chev. Prof. George Menachery, Historian, Trhrissur, President
    3.Abram Ben Hur, General Secretary, St. Thomas Maha Kudumba Yogam, Archadeacon Centre, Pakalomattom P. O., Kuruvilangad, Kottayam.
    4.Jacob Thomas Edassery, Kuravilangad.
    5.Prof. Dr. Tarsis Joseph, Kuravilangad.

    DOCUMENTS

    Affidavit – High Court Hyderabad
    Abstract Govt of Andhrapradesh: Guidelines for Assistance to Christian Pilgrimage Order
    News paper reports

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  152. Dear Varghese Mani

    Yours is not Adhikaprasangam. Very good observation. But I have some reservation about Sex is sin or not etc.

    The bible is written during several hundreds of years. The purpose of the books was not to teach you science or history or any other science of modern time. It is written by people inspired by God (or who thought about their creator). What was their style of writing? It was in the style of Mythology. Mythology of nearby communities in Iraq, Egypt etc. has the same mythology like the creation and the flood etc. Moses might have borrowed it from them. Adam does not mean the individual (may be Adam means mankind—Homosapiens)

    So we do not have to learn it as a true fact of history or Science. Purpose of the book is to know God as known (revealed) at that time. The relation between God and man. Man’s nature etc. Later on More writings followed for the same purpose.

    You will find that God ordering Israelites to kill all the old and young men and women and children in thousands and keep the virgins for them to rape. Once I asked a Syro- Malabar catholic father, who was my friend, whether it is the father of Jesus, who is full of love and mercy and who gave the 10 commandments who ordered these crime?. He has given a good answer. It was humanities infancy. If one of your young child quarreled with a friend and got a bloody nose and come to you with complaint what will you say. Don’t come to me crying, go and hit him back so that he never forgets it. When you are grown up he will not say that.

    When humanity is matured Jesus come here and revealed God fully. He is Love only. Love your enemy. So we cannot take creation story or other writings separately and make our comments.

    There was nothing in Bible that say there was no death before the fall. Death denotes spiritual death and not physical death.

    In Genesis chapter 1, God created man and woman at once and asked them to be fruitful and multiply themselves even before the fall. In chapter 2, man was made first and then woman made afterwards from man. In chapter 1 Vegetation was created on third day. But in chapter two it was not there even after the man was created. We cannot argue that you should not remain unmarried as that is not God’s desire. Same way Paul’s view is that it is better not to marry. It is also his view that God chose him from infinity. Calvin and other made the doctrines from Paul’s writing that god created some for hell and some for heaven from time infinity. It is against the Bible point of view as a whole.

    1. The observation that if a person is born when their parents are in youth is sinful and if one is born when his parents are in old age is sinless, and that sex is sinful – is not based on bible but based on human imagination. Actually if you read Chapter 1 of Genesis, you will see that god created Adam and Eve simultaneously, not separately, And asked them to be fruitful and multiply. That is before the fall of Adam. God would have surely asked them not to have children in their youth if it was sinful.
    2. Isaac, Ismail and Samuel were also born in old age .
    3. The first Pope (Peter) was married. Junia was a woman who was also an apostle. So women can also be pope. Romans 16-7

    You can understand bible only if you read it humbly to know what God wants to talk to you what you want to know. God will talk to each according to his capacity if you humble before Him. Born again (rebirth) is an act of Holy Spirit. A change of heart take place when you respond to the Holy spirit call through your conscience to Believe in Jesus ( Meaning Jesus way, Margam or love your neighbor as thyself). The so called Born again need not necessarily really change to Jesus margam – But only changed their doctrines.

    God will not ask you whether you have the doctrines of Catholic or Orthodox or Pentecost. He will look at your heart. He will tell you at judgment day:- I was hungry, you feed me, I was thirsty You gave me drink….. so on. To God all are equal, whether t hey follows any religion or denomination. He will not ask you what your doctrines are. He will look at your hearts.

    That is what Mother Teresa was doing.

    Jesus was Son of MAN. No one in the world could say he is a son of MAN. SON OF MAN is son of God. Not because he is born of Virgin Mary.

    Philip
    (Potha become Philip, Philipose in Greek means lover of horses)

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  153. Dear Philip Mathai,

    /thank you for your post. I agree with most of your observations, especially
    1. You can understand bible only if you read it humbly to know what God wants to talk to you what you want to know. God will talk to each according to his capacity if you humble before Him
    <>
    2. To God all are equal, whether t hey follows any religion or denomination. He will not ask you what your doctrines. He will look in to your heart.
    3. Bible is not to be viewed as a book of Science or a Book of History, but only from a theological point of view.

    Agrees that there could be some fiction in the book of genesis.
    Peter2:3: 5 & 10 describes Act of creation and end of the world which is probably closer to the views of modern science.

    *Humanity’s infancy* is a good observation and explanation. But to god his laws are the same for ever. Unchanged as long as the earth and the heaven exists. Jesus explains that many of the Laws of Levi were written by Moses to satisfy the people. So I still doubt whether *My God* would have ordered those killings. Even more surprising to see that David had gone after and destroyed entire enemy communities, with out sparing even the babies.

    Also why was it allowed for the Kings to have multiple wives – David had many (not to mention Solomon) where as we cant have more than one ? That is unfair. Reason may be we may not be able to treat them equal. I dont know. There is an Israeli community (Black American community) which practices polygamy and they explain it like this “If you have some thing good would you share it with some one else ? So if you have a husband and you know he is a good man then why wont you let another woman to be in your household. ”

    The observation that if a person is born when their parents are in youth is sinful and if one is born when is parents are in old age is sinless, and that sex is sinful
    >> I am not saying procreation is sinful nor is sexuality which is the basic requirement for the sustainment of the human race. But only view it being the ORIGINAL SIN, and that your *attittude* makes it wrong – ie. when it is from *desire of flesh*. Not denying that it is gods gift for humanity.
    Also I didnt mean parents being old etc. What I meant is *attitude – procreation or pleasure* and ‘John was rebirth of Elijah by the power of spirit and so was Mary’. But Ismail was from flesh as stated in the bible.

    *Jesus was Son of MAN. No one in the world could say he is a son of MAN. SON OF MAN is son of God. Not because he is born of Virgin Mary. * – That is a good point. I take that as mine.

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  154. Quite a lively, interesting discussion. But since this thread is a few years old, some of the participants may not be following it any more. I was led here by a search for the Jewish/Nasrani link. Dr. Mini Kariappa’s work on DNA mentioned by Prof. Menachery sounded promising but when I read the paper, it was disappointing. Sure, the scientific jargon may be impressive to someone who has no idea what it means but there wasn’t a concise executive summary of the findings. It isn’t just a lack of presentation skills but, as someone here pointed out, they appear scatter-brained and there are a lot of contradictions. Dr. Menachery mentions that “Chitpavan Brahmins, the Tulu Brahmins, the Namboothiris and the Nazranies” all share the same DNA as the Jews. The paper doesn’t mention Namboothiri or Brahmin but the connection may have been mentioned in a private conversation that Prof. Menachery had with his niece (I thought Dr. Kariappa was Coorgi, but perhaps she is married to one).

    This emphasis on being descended from Jews or high caste priests may be similar to British Israelism which claims that the lost tribes ended up in England. The theory has been discredited and was inspired by the desire for ordinary people to have a glorious ancestral past.

    Namboodiris were Aryan, so how could they have semitic genes? Besides, they were very racist and had to have a ritual bath if they even saw an untouchable and after their sambandham unions. My guess is many of the Syrian Xians were offspring of these sambandham unions and claimed Namboodiri ancestry to avoid the rigors of the caste system.

    It is possible and probable that Nasranis are descended from Cochin Jews and from 1st century Jewish Brahmins (and Namboodiri Brahmins after the 7th century) but we need a more convincing proof. There is a book out there by Abraham Benhur titled “The Jewish Background of Indian People” which may fill the gap. This book claims that Sankarapuri, Pakalomattam, et al were Jewish. I haven’t read the book but the summary sounds very interesting.

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