Familytree – Syrian Christians DNA Project Information

I think people are a little quick to claim Jewish ancestry. While I think it would be interesting if this is the case, the Haplogroup J2 (M172) that many of us Syrian Christians have simply points to West Asia and not necessarily to the Jews. That we have west asian ancestry is no surprise due to immigration to Kerala from West Asian–as the article indicates.

But I think what’s happening is people are amplifying one small fact (the presence of the J2 Haplogroup in our blood) into a gigantic story of how the Syrian Christians of Kerala were Jews, and how the Persian Crosses are actually “Nasrani Menorahs”. Since when is the cross of the Church of the East a menorah? It is a cross. Its interesting pattern is a common motif of the Church of the East. Take a look at pictures of the old Assyrian churches in Iraq, and the Nestorian stele in China — they have a similar design.

There is a syrian christian project at family tree dna (www.ftdna.com) which has some interesting results. Lets get one thing straight, we might have some brahmin descent, but we shouldn’t crow and make that our whole identity as we should identify more with the dravidian culture we are from. Plus lets get rid of this high caste, low caste mentality, we are christians, in Christ there is no difference and becoming christian should uplift anyone who wants to do so. O.k. now the results of the ftdna are very enlightening. So far of the participants paternal ancenstry haplogroup; a quarter have R1A which is a Indo-european marker, a quarter have J2 which is possilby jewish or middle easter, and a quarter have L(1 or 2) which is a dravidian marker, while the rest were a variety of other markers. Our ancestry is very mixed and shows indigenous dravidian converts, local jewish or immigrant middle eastern descent, and brahmin converts or possibly armenian or persian and/or greek descents. These are the possiblities, but one thing is for certain, many people came to christ from many sections of society and many parts of the world, lets keep that heritage proud by treating others like we treat ourselves, and be peacemakers in the world, like our Christ told us to.

Dear John Mathew,

The co-relation between the unique ‘Cohen’ gene sequence or signature and its relation to the Hebrew Priestly class male have been establishes by research which started long back. This has proven to be more than a fiction wherein Jewish males claiming and in fact of Priestly oral traditions were tested and confirmed to carry this common set of genetic signature that sets them apart from the rest of the Jewish population.

Why this sequence is so unique ? Well as we know the Aaronite (Cohens) and non-aaronite Levites were Priestly Hebrew class with common distant ancestor(s)… whoever He may be. This commonality passed on to their sons which we call the ‘Cohen sequence’ or Cohen Modal Haplotype, CMH found in J1 and J2 groups or Levite Modal Haplotype, LMH found almost in R1a group and also few others.

How can such a sequence of markers be found in common in such a high percentage of Priestly class Jews (or Israelites) unless it actually was passed on and preserved without major mutations ! Genes dont lie and research has established. There are plenty of papers out there which describe the findings and substantiate with evidence, tradition-wise and scientifically. These are the two inseparable parts of genealogy studies.

So what the Bible all along describes that only Aharon’s sons were given High Priestly duties and other Levites to be their “assistants” is not just fables but as u see scientifically true !

So its not a mere co-incidence that most of the J2 and R1a samples in our database are matches to the Modal Haplotypes carrying the signatures or their variants. Had it been a sample or two with a little vague similarity I would have been sceptical. But thats not the case as I have been describing all along this forum.

A very high proportion of our samples are either perfect or close matches to the CMH and LMH as the case may be and that too inter-related, though familialy they may be different. That speaks volumes if u read well. It shows there are few and common contributors to our paternal gene pool and we may not be that genetically distinct from each other as we thought we are. As I said we need more samples for any conclusion but the trends are surely establishing.

Dear SV,

I just thought of replying to ur comments individually….

“As a naive observer, I am just skeptical about our West Asian Origin.”

Well you are one of the many. No worries, u will learn. Thats good actually if you are positively sceptical. Go around this forum and threads wherein I have posted much info on the DNA test results.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-

“So far all the DNA results have yielded R1a, R2, J2, H and L , all of which are found commonly in South Indian populations. No samples are found of E3b, R1b, and G, which are common across the Middle East. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/archaeogenetics/1547718128/) We could say that these were a result of Late migration to those areas (i.e, after Nasranis emigrated). Then the earlier stock of Nasranis would have consisted of only J2, R1a (and probably L and H if you take Iran)”

Yeah haplorgoups AS SUCH are found across the globe. But thats not genealogy genetics comments and predicts on ancestries. We have things like haplotypes, marker values, matches, etc… And after having done all this the concerned research persons are opinionating that the Nasrani samples are nowhere near nor related to the other Indian populations, paternally. Yes the only exceptions are the H and few of the L samples which are indeed indicative of local origins for the corresponding families.

R1b, E3b and G are NOT so very “common” across the middle-east ! R1b is almost absent there and is concentrated around western european, the british isles, etc. E3b is originally from North African ancestry and also is afro-semitic in origin and common in Jews as it entered the Hebrew population after the Exodus period from Egypt. It is genetically come from outside into the original Hebrew race though it doesnt matter religion-wise. And its frequency decreases eastwards this region into middle-east.

G is also NOT of middle-eastern “origin”. Its highest frequency and therefore u can say its possible origin is around Turkey and Caucasia (Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc.) and the Russian steppes. Yes, many Jews also have the G haplogroup and if Im not wrong as far as I have read and know its specifically G2c which is found in Jews.

WHy all the above admixtures ? Because Jews and Hebrews were never a endogamous people and Judaism was a highly proselytizing religion in ancient times. Therefore the Jews have developed a common set of genetic markers after having come together from varied original inputs and formed what we have a mosaic yet unique and distinct set today. Because after they joined in they were endogamous within the community and preserved paternal lines.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-

“But that would be a kind of coincidence. Also, if J2 Cohen is claimed to be unique to Nasranis among South Indians, we should find out whether there are any J2 Cohens in other populations of South india.”

Yeah they are already finding out and have found out. J2 Cohens are absent in the other populations from the research work done so far by different scientists. Actually it was the so-called other populations that had been studied earlier while our community hadnt gone into scientific search. Now even that has started and results are coming out. The paternal lineage/origin results say we are distinct from the others around. You may believe it or not. I have commented on the few exceptions. Also read my reply to Mr. John Mathew which also is relevant for you.

“Maybe we should wait for still more samples, however, looking at the current sample(with the possible exception of J2 Cohen), the first hypothesis would be of an Indian upper/middle caste population.”

You may hypothesize as u like but thats not acceptable as far as the results say. And yes, sample size is low to conclude anything which is already stated on the project homepage as u must have definitely read. And I dont understand what u mean by “upper-caste” still. That tag is difficult to leave behind I know. No worries again.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-

“As for mtDNA, I guess there are almost no doubts that M* and R* are native to India from the Paleolithic.”

Now u sound like a person who knows some genetics or atleast has read something. Yes, true, M*type of mtDNA is Asian/Indian/Indo-Persian or whatever u may call it. R* type mtDNA is not local Indian. It is of course common in the so-called upper-caste Indians (North and South) but has been originated from the Near East and Persia, outside India. It has further subsets again. R* is a parent haplogroup of more sub-sets in mtDNA types. So it “could be” again from the Indian maternal pool as u said.

Well one of R* type mtDNA in our database is of a west asian type. Its not Indian anyway for sure. But exactly what needs confirmation since the project is now concentrating on Y-DNA results.

But maternal ancestry more or less is local in origin from the huge trend seen, whatever caste is not the point of genetic studies.
———————————————————————————————————————————————-

“Do the ‘red’ haplogroups indicate that they are not at all tested? Are they predicted fully on family tree?
In any case, I think we should be looking for one sample from each patrilineal family line rather than individuals, and count the no of samples, if we are interested in the haplo % of our topmost ancestors. In that case, N = 39 -19(red haplo) = 20.”

For the red marked haplogroups u can read on the project results page. It is a tested result. Well I couldnt understand or digest your “formula/equation”. Sorry, I have no idea what it means. Is that from a established source or your own thought ? You urself said we should wait for more samples then why do u come up with such equations and % ratios now ? Well those results displayed are for individual distinct paternal families. And a Y-DNA result speaks for an entire male lineage of a paternal side family not just the tested individual. There is one sample exception, you may minus it in the total.

Finally u can contact the project admin for more details and doubts if any. Also read the reply to John Mathew on R1a and J2, etc.

Thanks

Jackson

Dear John Mathew,

Well regarding Persian ancestry I am still not sure because Persians were/are the most varied people in the world genetic database as u said correctly.

No one is still sure who are the actual ethnic and original “Persians”. Some say the Zoroastrians. Persia was a place where many cultures confluenced. So its difficult to predict and there are many hypothesis out there.

But yes the Zoroastrians and any community connected to Persia even vaguely have the occurence of R2 haplogroup in them. Almost 50% of the Parsis/Zoroastrians tested are said to be R2 as per one paper. And even Armenians (who are related to Persians as Armenia was a part of the Persian empire) have a high frequency of R2. Also the Ashkenazi Jews in and around Persia have good frequency of R2 haplogroup. So its like a mystery for this haplogroup. Its also rarely seen in India. So its origins are taken to be Persia.

In the Nasrani database we have 5 samples that are R2 which is significant but they do not match the other R2 samples found in other Indian communities. Few of our R2’s are closer to the Armenian and Ashkenzai Jewish R2 types in marker values. Others have no matches with any other community anywhere ! Thats because R2 is a scattered group.

But our R2 samples might have something to do with migrants “from” the Assyrian/Persian empire considering the notable frequency in our database, whose original ancestry/ethnicity cannot be guessed now.

Dear Jackson

Thanks for your detailed replies.

I’ll just clarify my sources and understanding. It’s not to contradict anything. Correct me If I am wrong.

E3b, G, R1b and I:
These two links gave conflicting info (maybe due to difference in their sample size)
1. http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf and
2. http://www.flickr.com/photos/archaeogenetics/1547718128/

E3b is around 15% in Persians and Arabs.
R1b at 5%
I is present around 25% in Persians as per (1)
G is present at 12% in Persians as per (2)

I agree regarding the origins, i.e G is from Caucasses and E3b from North Africa. Apart from that, ‘I’ from Europe, R1b from Europe. However, the question is when did they come to Middle East/Persia? After 1st century? Upper Paleolithic? Islamic conquest of Persia? These are difficult questions for us.

Note that the historicity of Exodus is doubted even by Rabbis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wolpe#Historicity_of_the_Exodus

As for J2 Cohen, I think, there were 6 Nasrani matches in Ysearch. 4 of them where from the same family. So, effectively 3. But the samples from India on ysearch are very few, maybe around 100-200, and J2 at 25, and the samples from Kerala scanty; Only one sample-from the Nair project I guess.

But still, I agree that a 12 marker Cohen haplotype match is remarkable, considering that it is not yet found in the Middle East, and other Indian samples.

Is there any y-haplogroup testing done on Cochin Jews?

I tried matching some of the Nasrani sounding R1a1 samples found on ysearch. None of them gave any ‘0’ distance matches. And anyway, I’ve seen on some pages that this is said to be of Ashkenazi origin, not from the early centuries.

My doubt related to ‘red’ haplogroups is because of what they’ve mentioned on the results page:

“Haplogroups in red have been predicted by Family Tree DNA based on unambiguous results in the individual’s personal page. This has been placed on this GAP page for your ease and convenience. Please note that for any predicted results we see no reason for ordering a SNP test to confirm the Haplogroup”

So it sounded like they were not tested.

mtDNA R,M:

I understand your point regarding mtDNA. I felt from the haplogroup maps that mtDNA migrations across natural geographic boundaries are limited when compared to y-DNA.

Table 6 of this paper: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Metspalu2004.pdf doesn’t give any major caste based differentiation on mtDNA. They used relatively larger no of samples, than others which claimed caste based linkages.

However there is a region based differentiation. Western states like Gujarat and Kashmir show more West Eurasian mixture, decreasing as we go south along the west coast of Maharashtra, Karnataka and finally Kerala. Interestingly, Rajasthan shows less West admixture due to the Thar natural barrier I guess. Similarly across the Chinese border you can see Eust Eurasian mixture.

The sample taken for Kerala was almost entirely from Cochin Jews. It showed little presence of any West Eurasian haplogroups (which were also probably locally inherited, considering the West Eurasian % on the Indian West coast)

I used the term ‘caste’ as this is what most genetic study papers on India concentrate on, apart from region. This had nothing to do with the Namboothiri origin myth.

Though the origin of the R is in the Middle East, looking at Figure 5 of the above study, I thought most of the subclades of R, apart from the one named by other letters and the East Eurasian R*, are found in the Indian Sub Continent.

By West Asian R* did you mean that R* may get resolved into HV, U or the like?

y-dna R2:

The Wikipedia page says,
“At least 90% of R2 individuals are located in the Indian sub-continent”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2_(Y-DNA)#Distribution
http://www.ethnoancestry.com/index_files/index_data/Haplogroup_R2_Manoukian.pdf
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1380230&rendertype=figure&id=FG4

Thanks
SV

Dear SV,

On R2 I said it has still to be determined what it’s exact origin is because it is a scattered haplogroup with no specific haplotypes. It is concentrated in and around Persia, Armenia and also in few communities in eastern parts of India. I dont know what link Nasranis might have to eastern Indian states and related migrations. Therefore the paper on ethnoancestry also says the same it does a pan-Indian “sub-continent” presence but not necessarily originated in India.

To see if our R2 samples are of Indian or foreign origin we look for matches as I said. Unfortunately due to the constricted data available for R2 it is not be determined. But it also does not match the existing Indian R2 samples. It is much closer to the Armenian and Ashkenazi Jewish R2. So we cannot conclude anything for now.

For R1a1 Nasranis R1a1 (most of them) are either perfect or close matches to the Ashkenzai Levite Modals (LMH). 3 of our R1a1 samples are exact LMH matches, so that says it. The others are varying in a couple of markers but closer, mutations cud be the reason. As long as the genetic distance is 3 or less the DNAs are related and having common origins. The lesser the distance the more clearer the conclusion. The Indian R1a1 and J2 samples are far from the Nasrani R1a1 and J2. The project admin himself has commented on this. I have also personally checked on ysearch and seen it.

And as far as the Nasrani Cohen samples in our database go they are around 5-6 and from DISTINCT paternal families. I dont know who told u they are from the same family. If they are from the same paternal family they should all be perfect matches “to each other” and its logic ! Firstly u wouldnt get male members from a single family tested… u are wasting money coz they will give same results and thats understood ! Thats not the case here. Get your confusin resolved from the project admin please.

On the mtDNA, R* can again be resolved further as u said if tested further. And one of our R* is just a generation away by one step from mtDNA haplogroup H which is of west asian maternal lineage (also found in people from europe).

Finally, get in touch with the project admin Mr. Manakalathil. He will be the best person for first-hand info. Do not rely completely on wikipedia and websites or already done research. Research opens up new things almost daily ! So it updates itself.

Thanks

To add to Deepak’s comment: another possibility is via our intercourse with Syriac Christians (not “Jewish Christians”) from West Asia.

I believe it is also documented that the Jewish Christians in the Eastern Roman Empire and the Persian Empire merged with the Gentile Syriac Christians, for various reasons. So I don’t think it would be surprising if the same J2/Cohen markers in our community were found in the general Syriac Christian communities — the Syriac Orthodox/Catholics, the CoE, the Chaldeans — in the Middle East. Has anyone looked into this?

Perhaps when members of those communities came to Kerala and intermarried with our ancestors (e.g., (1) there are families in Kollam who trace their ancestry the Persian/Syrian colonists of the Mar Sabor/Mar Aphroth era, (2) Mar Andrews’—Kallada Bawa—brother married into a Kerala family, and his descendants include Mor Gregorios of Parumala, and the early bishops of the Malabar Indep. Syriac Church of Thozhiyur, (3) Mar Yuhakim Coorilos came and his brother married into a Kerala family; ironically his descendant is a Protestant bishop — ironic because Mor Coorilos came to stop the spread of Protestant heterodoxy in Kerala, (4) someone on this board claimed his ancestor “Tolani” as a Syriac immigrant) they brought along their J2 DNA. That is — perhaps these J2 Cohens came to Kerala not as Jews but as bonafide Orthodox/Catholic Christians.

I have recently been in couple of Syrian orthodox baptism and marriage and what I could see these Syrian/ west Asian traditions. Open your eyes and look at those people we can easily conclude that these west Asian people with Indian influence on them. then consider how we got our j2 r1a1 r2 in our dna samples. i even feel that we don’t even need a dna result to say these concepts. u need to know how complicated these traditions exist today and continue to go on and where we can find a spot to put these huge Hindu converts in it? and unknowingly westasian blood are distributing through marriages in different denominations and the generations are still go on. but i would say there can be few Hindu converts but they should be melt in these Syrian Christian populations. Debates going on beetween jacobites and orthodox that jacobites want their administration from west Asian bishops because they strongly believe that they are connected to west Asia. people who are just easy commenting something go and stand for an orthodox Syrian church and watch and participated a ceremony and u will see that it not a joke and u will feel the seriousness in it

Hi all,
I am a foundling in this DNA studies and I really dont want to browse net to understand how testing is done etc etc..
I have a question and dont call me stupid!

About this paternal DNA test, does it test only father’s father’s father’s and so on or does it include father’s mother’s father or mother. Similarly for the maternal DNA test. I hope u got my point. I find this very confusing. For all I know inheritance can be from any side of the family. My son looks like my hubby and daughter looks like my father (I look like my mother)..
If you guys Kezhakken/SV/George Mathew/jackson can answer me it will be nice.

Dear Annie, I would say heritage can be comes to a Syrian Christian member from mother’s father or mother’s mother’ father family and none of them cannot be trace it clearly through DNA test except Y. DNA. if we get a sample from the male side from these families we can know their paternal heritage. What we looking is that if we believe St Thomas came to Malabar it most probably looking for Jewish Israelites in Malabar coast because there was an ancient trade exist in Malabar towards West Asian places and that is tell we have these jewish israelites presences. Our forefathers most probably Jewish, Israelites, Assyrians, Persians and then there can be a chance or some namboothris , nairs among our community. but we know that we all together and we all sharing these blood by having marriage in families. Again let me say probable chance that among Marthoma Christians are the decedents of St Thomas converted people who can be Jewish or Israelites encourage to do a paternal test so that we can know some one specifically showing Jewish ancestry but some samples did it. But that doesn’t mean that others are not sharing these heritage. I would say almost everybody is sharing these heritage but it may not stays in the paternal side and let me say my ydna says r2 which i dont yet found much info on that and my mother’s family ydna r1a1 have plenty of askennaze levites matches. Please wait for Jackson to give you a clear answer regarding Annie’s question

Dear RP,
Thanks.
I didnt exactly understand what u meant by this ” Marthoma Christians are the decedents of St Thomas converted people who can be Jewish or Israelites encourage to do a paternal test so that we can know some one specifically showing Jewish ancestry but some samples did it.” Did u mean Marthoma denomination or Marthoma christians as in St Thomas christians.

Any way I am Orthodox with my paternal side being orthodox for the last 8 generations. My maternal side is a mixture of Orthodox and Marthoma. My maternal grandfather was Orthodox and maternal grandmother is marthoma. From what I have seen, there is lot of interdenominational marriage amongst christians of Tiruvalla side,be it Orthodox or Marthoma or CSI.

I guess, I will not learn anything much by testing my DNA as what I gathered from this site is that maternal DNA of those who has tested resulted in an Indian origin.

Annie,

To exactly learn about your family’s heritage/ancestry you need to get your direct brother or father tested. The results will also apply to you and speak of your paternal ancestry as well.

Genetic studies have nothing to do with denominational barriers which are outwards. The results speak for the entire community as a whole. I hope atleast here people wont be biased and agree that all Thomasine Christians are (were) one community till 16 cent. AD. Down the line and within our genes and DNA we are all one!

Dear Annie,
What i meant Marthoma Christians is that not Marthomites or Marthoma denomination and that is different. But what Marthoma means in general doesn’t matter which denomination it is, it means in suryani saint thomas( mar=saint, thoma=thomas) . More clearly it means the people who converted by St Thomas. We need to know all we all are Syrian Christian or suryani Christani that I think we all rooted someway to the west Asian land may be from palatine Israel Syria, Jewish Christians from Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq which St Thomas evangelize these places same as well as in India. But we may not original in these sense but mixed with few Indians like when Namboothirs, Nair Dravidians, locals converted compared to many immigrants in our Christian community
Again we used to be one before Portuguese arrived in 15th century and Portuguese let all the Syrian Christian converted to Catholics by force and destroyed lot of Syrian Christian ancient documents. Therefore we don’t have any proof regarding our history instead some oral information. After coon kurusu sathyam, our forefather came out from these Portuguese traditions and started to rebuilt the original Aramaic worship except some group and that is the roman catholic and Latin catholic denomination. Then different denominations originated i think Orthodox and Marthoma were right after coonon kurusu sathaym Therefore we are Syrian Christians that people just say first it was catholic. then orthodox or may be Jacobite , Marthoma , CSI , Evangelical, Reeth but nobody has any information what it was 1st century to 15 th century. These I write from my knowledge but Jackson , and few others are best in these to answer annie’s questions

I just saw the E3b entry in our ftdna. I guess that adds more weight to the West Asian hypothesis. Well let’s even wait for more samples, Jackson 😉

Dear Varghese Paul,

Are you the E3b tested person with family name Kuttikadan ? Just curious as this is one of my relatives family name from Thrissur dist.

Hi Jackson

As a newcomer, I see from the postings that you have a sound understanding of the genograph.
As most enquiring minds do, I myself have a healthy sense of curiosity about my own ethnic origins in relation to (and despite) my (Knanaya) community’s claims.

I have the following data to share with you for your academic evaluations. The DNA analysis was done through National Geographic’s Genographic Project in March 2008:
Name: Cyril Abraham/House name: Thathamkulam/From: Neezhoor (Kaduthuruthy, Kottayam)
Y-chromosome DNA testing confirms that I belong to: Haplogroup J2 (M172)

The report further elucidates:
The M172 marker defines a major subset of haplogroup J, which arose from the M89 lineage. It is found today in North Africa, the Middle East, and southern Europe. In southern Italy it occurs at frequencies of 20 percent, and in southern Spain 10 percent of the population carries this marker. Both haplogroup J and its subgroup J2 are found at a combined frequency of around 30 percent in Jewish individuals.

And, as to my genetic journey, the report states:
Your ancestors left a physical footprint that matches their genetic journey. Artifacts from ancient towns such as Jericho, also known as Tell el-Sultan, a site close to present day Jerusalem, provide evidence of permanent human settlements to around 8500 BC. The sites also suggest the transition from hunter-gatherer to settled life occurred relatively suddenly. This is where your genetic trail, as we know today, ends.

Furthermore, the Project has provided a map showing the start of the genetic journey: from a point closer to the mid-eastern section of Africa with the title, “Eurasian Adam”, 31,000-79,000 years ago.

Feel free to quote my name and the data as given if it is helpful for your on evaluations and the ongoing discussions. Like I said in my initial posting, I’m open-minded, with an acute enquiring mind, and would not matter one way or the other whatever story my genetic markers may have to say. It is what it is! If you need more info, please do not hesitate to let me know.

Dear Cyril Abraham,

And yes, what about your matches ? How many markers did u test for ? What are the DYS values (marker values) ? Please read the above post too.

Jackson

Cyril:

I dont know if u have already done the following, but I fed in your STR marker values on ‘ysearch’ (the most popular search site for genetic matches and genetically related people to u or any1 tested, based on STR marker values) and got around 101 matches though at a genetic distance of 2 and more. A genetic distance of 0 or 1 is worth considering, 2 and 3 is somewhat distantly related (depends on community and migration history too) and beyond that the unrelatedness increases and is irrelevant beyond 4.

Almost all of these matches at GD of 2 and 3 are Europeans. There is no middle-eastern or jewish person in the list matching ur results, not even an indication. Most of these are J2b or J2b2. So ur J2 type may be if further tested be classified as J2b, which only a test can say. Also, since u have no matches to existing middle-eastern or jewish people in the ysearch database (where the project results results are pooled), its probably not a Jewish J2 or atleast doesnt match existing and known jewish J2 samples, but could be of a different origin. If ur lineage is unique due to unique STR values, then u might not get any matches, as u havent got any now, so dont worry. Dont conclude it as european either, as 12 marker values are not sufficient to conclude such things, if results are ambiguous. But that J2 is generally speaking “‘semitic” in origin is the only fact u can hold for now.

U might contact the Syrian Christian project admin at [email protected] and ask for his advice if u wish to further dig more details as to what ur J2 says. U might be advised to join the project and transfer the results to the project. Then u might have to take more marker tests which alone will clear the doubts. I cant say on this. You two need to work this out.

Hope that helped.

Jackson

In history we can see that people in low ladder of the social structure was trying to imitate the higher section by accepting their culture and copying their customs.( Eg. Last centuries the Muslim land lords of Pakistan Punjab claimed rajputs ancestry and now they are claiming Arabic /sayyid ancestry. And in kerala now all the low cast Hindus are doing rituals like sradham etc ) christens of kerala also no exception now a days they are imitating a lot of hindu customs ,now all most all of the claiming namputhiri or savarna ancestry . it is not true( it’s pathetic that the followers of Jesus Christ born in a family of artisan claiming the high cast birth). Now every body now that the first century AD there were no namputhiri or nair or the present cast system that existed today . these stories are based on margam kali pattu ( another imitation of mohiniyattam and panamkali) that written much later ( the Malayalam and the vattazhuth used in that songs are not earlier than 16th or 17th century. We know that Malayalam and the present cast system come’s around 7-9th century AD, regarding the song if you sang that song in public there will be communal riot sure it is saying that nairs are cremating the dead like “mean chudunathu pole etc and some other words also highly objectionable . Regarding the Jews ancestry among some suriyanis and the haplogroup present in suriyanis. That is true that the kannayi thoma and the converted jews in first century may contributed that. And the middle east origin and haplogroup like M17,M172,M173 etc present in namputhiris and nairs also. My cousin (a namputhiri) his test result is like this R1ai M168>M89>M9>M45>M207>M173>M17 and one another cousin (a nair) also M17 but one of my friend nair is M172.

Hello
I have been researching into the syrian chrisitan history, online and through books, for the past few years, during my free time.
I belong to a syrian christian family called Malayil [Punnakadu].We have been a family that has given many priests ad pastors to our scociety for a long time.My mother comes from a marthomite family,

Even in this discussion forum, no one seems to have come to a conclusion about our origins.
None of the information in the websites and books regarding our history and origin are conclusive or without dispute.i would be most interested in knowing about the thorough conclusions reached through this project, based on genetic investigations,I feel our past is important and our heritage shouldnt be ignored or belittled.Our unique culture should not disappear as we progress into the post-modern era.

ravivarman thampi,

Many people on this forum has already beyond the attitude you have mentioned. There are also many who aren’t. However, your point has been made a no of times on this forum. It’s redundant now.

Hari Das,

I have major doubts regarding this.
– Are there any oral traditions for the castes to trace their ancestry to PPPK? I mean, how do they know the correct castes?
– It’s surprising that for each tribe, samples belong to only one haplogroup. Such homegenity is rarely possible. Or have you misquoted the study?
– All the tribes should have a single ancestor according to the fable. This is not consistent with the y-DNA results. Anyway as I said, the point regarding homgenity should apply here too.
– It’s difficult to say what this study implies. Does it show the distribution of Brahmins (since the fabled male ancestor is a Brahmin) or does it show the distribution for the castes.?
– “Akavoor Chevakar successors have 1b1b “. Did you mean R1b1? That would be most interesting since the haplogroup is rare in the Indian sub continent.
– Most importantly, do you have any references or links to the study?

Jackson,

I have some comments related to the hypothesis we have made so far.

Following is the current status of the Nasrani ftdna Database

y-DNA (N=48)
—————
H: 4 (8.3%)
J2:13 (27.1%)
L :12 (25.0%)
Q: 1 (2.1%)
R1a: 12 (25.0%)
R2 : 6 (12.5%)

There’s a doubtful G(Stivadoros is not a Nasrani sounding name at all)

mt-DNA (N=23)
————-
M: 23 (78.4%)
R: 4 (17.4%)
U: 1 (4.4%)

The E3b entry has turned out to be an H entry. It seems that the Ftdna site probably calculates haplogroup based on the haplotype proababilities first, and maybe defer actual tests later. Or, is it that haplogroup tests are not fully reliable? Just a doubt.

My hypothesis so far.
– At first look the y-DNA distribution is somewhat ‘Indian’
– The mtDNA distribution is clearly ‘Indian’

Why?

H is Indian. It is true that H is found in lesser proportions in central asia, and even in lesser amount in south eastern europe, but rarely in other places. It should also be noted that the H of Europe is present mostly in Roma, a group with Indian origins. Of course the origin of H could be Middle East/Central Asia, however when I say ‘Indian’ it means haplogroups arriving to India before the early centuries AD. I’ll say non-Vedic/Vedic or Indus valley/Pre Indus when we need to differntiate along those timelines. I’m also isolating North East India who have unique mongloid haplogroups apart from common haplogroups with the rest of us.

Now, H is also found across all castes, with a lesser proportion as we move north.

J2 is Indian, but not exclusively. Found across all castes, but mostly in South Indian upper castes, West Indians and Pakistan. Now what seems to be unique with Nasrani J2 is the Cohen marker, which is the only genetic evidence so far. I suspect that J2 could very well be an Indus valley marker as far as India is concerned

L is more Indian than J2, haplogroups like L3 being found outside India too, but India and Pakistan have the highest proportions of L. L is found across all castes, in proportions which only give vague conclusions.

Q is not exclusively Indian, and is scarce in the sub-continent, however, there seems to be no much caste based differentiation. So Q cannot be judged as indicative of Jewish or Brahmin ancestry.

R1a is a very widespread haplogroup streching from Scandinavia and Siberia across Iran/Central Asia till South India. A very controversial one, because of its possible and apparent links with the Aryan Invasion(Migration??) Theory associated with the Vedic civilization. From the studies of Sengupta, it is present in the highest amount in the North Indian Upper caste (45%), however, it is significant among south Indian upper castes (28%), and lower castes (24%). It could be quite possible that it was not exclusively brought to India by late migrations alone, but was also present with previous paleolitihic migrations. The presence of R1a need not be representative of Jewish or Brahmin ancestries. However, the R1a Levite connection is the counter evidence. But the Levite theory as I find it is muddled, not as clear as the J2 Cohen. If we didn’t suspect Levite ancestry, then R1a is quite Indian; Brahmin/not is a different question.

R2 has a slightly similar story as R1a, with the exception that most of R2 is in the subcontinent, and is almost absent in Europe. Again there seems to be some scanty haplotype evidence for the foreign origin of Nasrani-R2s.

– The combination (H,L,J2,Q,R1a,R2) is very much Indian and could be expected of a typical Indian sample, that is not to say that all of these haploroups are Indian but when you see all of them in a group, it is more possibly Indian than anything else. (Not considering J1 Muslims or O North East Indians)

– It could be said that more research needs to be done in analysing Indian samples, however, certain things are conclusive even from the present research, like you would hardly find an H in an English population or that you will hardly find an R1b or I in an Indian population.

– There should be some uniqueness for Nasrani population from the rest of the population, to have foriegn links , as far as haplogroups are concerned it doesn’t exist so far, but as far as haplotypes go it does, in the form of J2 Cohen. But I don’t see any other indian group with a large number of J2s to check whether it is exclusive to us. As you said earlier I’ll check with the project admin, but just speaking my mind.

– Partially, repeating the previous point, at least one unique haplogroup should exist if we have to confirm some foreign ancestry. The E3b seemed to be one, but it now seems to be a case of false analysis.

– I also want to make sure that we are not by any chance fleeced by FTDNA. These are captitalist companies; they might try to generate an artificial interest to get more tests done. FTDNA could be honest and fair, but just stating a possibility.

It could be the case where our samples are not enough. But unless we are too diverse, they speak something about our ancestry. IMO, If we are waiting for testing a foreign ancestry that could possibly be less than 2% or something, it’d be a good idea to get tests done for families known to have unique phenotypes.

Speaking of mtDNA, the combination (M,R,U) is very very Indian. My best guess is that we have little or no foreign ancestry on the maternal sides, otherwise we should see some unique middle eastern haplogroups here. I don’t think R will resolve to any of its descendants considering the high frequency of M (found in Indian and not in MidEast, true that M is there in China too, however, the subclades are unique to India)

I’m sure that you will have objections here. But just putting arguments forward.

Just think of this: How much is the probability that a haplogroup present in the Middle East, but not in the Indian Subcontinent, wouldn’t be present in an Indian population suspecting Middle Eastern ancestry.

One of my assumptions for the above hypothesis is that
– The genetics of Indan subcontinent would be largely determined by its natural boundaries (The himalayas, the Hindu Kush and the seas). (especially for the paleolitihic, before chariots were invented)

Just one more argument, according to DNAPrint genomics India is 60% European, 25% Asian(Mongoloid-A), 9% Native American(Mongoloid-B) and 6% Sub Saharan. They do the analysis per person based on ‘autosomal markers’ (I don’t really knwo what that is; however, it seems the proportion of ancestry per person can be found using this)

In my analysis this is somewhat consistent with the haplogroup proportions of India

mt-DNA
M: 60% (Mostly proto Mongoloid)
R+U: 25% (Mostly Caucooid))
East Eurasian haplogroups: 5% (proto Mongoloid-A/Mongoloid B)
West Eurasian haplogroups: 10% (Caucosoid)

y-DNA
F and its descendants except Q and O: 95% (Mostly Caucasoid)
Rest: Q, O and C 5% (proto Mongoloid-A/Mongoloid B))

Just to say that the vaguie consistencies b/n the results could be an indication of at least a vague consistency of the researches on Indian samples done so far.

If you have any links to new research papers related to my previous posts please give links.

Thanks

Its quet true that lot of westasian immigrants had inculturation that many taken local or dravidian wives hence their generation mtdna can comes different . that does not mean their westasian influences is not on them , though these they did not mean to keep their orginality but they wanted to be like that. Or some west asian tried to maintiain their identity . and those families members might have selected to become bishops .Hence we the syrian christians have more dravidian influences than any thing. i dont think that there was nairs and namboothris at the first century because i believe the term namboothri is recent. but there can be some vedic brahimn converted or few such families converted , but that does not mean that syrian chrisitan identity is all about nairs and namboothris converted. this is pretty much the facts that i believe. if there was such a mass populations of brahimns converted it should have been reflected in many ways. looking deep in to the dna facts are confusing and it does not get you anywhere.

Dear Jackson,

the idea of kerala syriac-christians is okay,as many thought of it before.but we should also see that the chithpavan brahmins for sure and the kokanastha brahmins
also are of west asian orgin.

\”chitpavan brahmin demonstrates younger maternal component and substantial paternal gene flow from west asia, thus giving credence to their recent irano-scythian ancestry from mediterranean or turkey, which correlated well with european-looking features of this caste. this also explains their untraceable ethno-history before 1000 years, brahminization event and later amalgamation by maratha….. for y-chromosomal polymorphisms, the frequency distribution of 10 y-haplogroups: h, r1a1, r1a, r2, l, j2, c, k2, p* and f* was determined. r1a had very high frequency (32%) in chitpavan-brahmin from “konkan” as compared to <=5% in other castes. indianspecific r2 and l accounts for 29.4% dhangar and 17% chitpavan-brahmin chromosomes respectively......mitochondrial dna diversity in 77 individuals as one haplotype each was shared within maratha and chitpavan brahmin respectively. m lineages had frequency of 67% in chitpavan-brahmin. the other south-asian specific diverse sub-clusters of r and u were also frequent in chitpavan-brahmin (84%). neolithic migration and very recent western influence was seen more (14-15%) in chitpavan-brahmin and desasth-brahmin than the other two castes (maratha and dhangar)........ haplotype diversities were highest (1.000 ± 0.017) in dhangar and desasth-brahmin while haplotypes were shared within maratha and chitpavan-brahmin. the studied groups did not share haplotypes among them....." the researchers give following conclusion "chitpavan-brahmin and desasth-brahmin constitutes just 10% of entire populace (~80 million) of western india. their different marriage rules, varied customs, different local dialects (southern branch of indo-aryan language) illustrated distinct origins. our extensive comparative analyses support their different ethno-histories. the y-chromosomes of marathi speaking desasth-brahmin carried r1a1 lineage in high frequency, which reflected their considerable affinity with central asian giving credence to their “scythic” descent (admixture, pc plot, amova analysis). their intermediate mtdna diversity comprise of low frequency west-eurasian clades and significant paleolithic gene pool (m) indicating south-asian ancestry, which provide evidence of their tribal origin due to upward social mobility of females as shown by study of baig et al. (2004). these brahmin subjects presented highest number of biparental alleles, heterozygosity and genetic affinity with central asians. these analyses provide evidence of “scytho-dravidian” genesis of desasthbrahmin. they are the ancient upper-caste comprising of 50 sub-divisions or “gotra” because the considerable time-depth as inferred from tau value, helped them to consolidate their predominance in different administrative jobs besides traditional priesthood. conversely, non-recombining uniparental contributions in chitpavan-brahmin mediterranean or east european type as shown by 20% (hv, u3) mtdna lineages and highly frequent (r1a and l) y-haplogroups. the admixture and pc analyses reflected genetic association of chitpavan-brahmin with iranian, ashkenazi-jews (turkey), greeks (east europe) and to some extent with central asian turkish populations elucidating their distinct nordic, “scytho-iranian” ancestry. the caucasian link of chitpavanbrahmin has also been inferred from biparental microsatellites variations. the observed genomic analyses asserted the ethnographical fact that chitpavan-brahmin share ancestry with conspicuously european-looking pagan or alpine group, who under religious pressure had migrated from anatolian turkey or east europe to gujarat coast probably via sea-vessel. besides, their documented history is untraceable beyond 1000 years, further indicating that they were not part of the original vedic migrations (early indo-european) on the west coast. therefore, the present genome analyses provide conclusive evidence of their recent migration, genesis, and expansion after they migrated from “sopara” (india’s western trade zone) to geographically isolated konkan-region, where they adopted “konkani” language, and cultivated cash crop. their considerable genetic affinity with maratha caste further corroborated the prevalent norm that few of the dynamic and intelligent chitpavans were “brahmanized” for performing religious rituals in king shivaji’s court. we observed 15% similar hvs -1 sequence motif (m4 lineage) between chitpavan-brahmin and bene-israeli (or indian jews), probably suggesting similar indigenous paleolithic contribution. compared to desasth-brahmin, kokanasth-brahmin showed lowest biparental diversity, younger age of population based upon tau value, larger genetic affinity with west asians plus east europeans suggesting their recent descent, in absence of bottleneck effect. however, recent marriages between desasth-brahmin boy and chitpavan girl have contributed towards their genetic affinity" other research in genetics of chitpavan brahmins state as follows "the origins on the maternal side (mt-dna) are equally surprising. unlike most other indians whose maternal origins can be almost exclusively traced to the single macro-haplogroup m (mt-dna), studies (kivisild et al. 2003, gaikwad et al. 2005) indicate that the chitpavan gene-pool shows the presence of various other central asian and european mt-dna haplogroups, in particular, the u (mt-dna), h (mt-dna), hv (mt-dna), x (mt-dna), r* (mt-dna), and n1 (mt-dna) haplgroups. on the paternal side (y-dna), r1a (y-dna) is the most frequently found haplogroup. incidentally, this haplogroup is also commonly found amongst north indians (sahoo et al. 2006), central asians, and east europeans. the rate of r1a is also high among south indian castes such as pallars, kallars, yadavas and sourashtrians as well as among tribals such as badagas. the origin of r1a or haplogroup m17 is debatable as either southern central asia or south asia or western caucasus or eastern europe. oxford university geneticist stephen oppenheimer has come to the conclusion through his genetic findings that "south asia is logically the ultimate origin of m17 and his ancestors", and that "one estimate for the age of this line in india is as much as 36,000 years old" (see haplogroup r1a (y-dna) ). the presence of a deep common ancestry between these regions remains a puzzle to this day. haplogroup j2 (y-dna) is another frequently found haplogroup considered to be of middle-eastern origins and found in a lot of higher-caste indians. there is also a significant presence of haplogroups r2 (y-dna), l (y-dna), and h1 (y-dna) which are believed to be of indian origin and dominantly found in western and south indians (sahoo et al. 2006). based on the current evidence therefore, it does seem then that the aforementioned racial characteristics can be most likely traced to their maternal side." so even the namboothiri caste have come from maharastra and gujrat.the name nambootiri were given to them by perumal kings by 9 century denoting that they came by nayambu=boat/row boat and thiri-which is an official suffix for thirumeni or extreme lordship. as a small community with just the senior male marrying they never intermingled with other brahmin or priestly communities to keep the wealth given to them.which have eventually destroyed them. also the iyengar/iyer brahmin community has south asian and south east asian dna,does that make them low caste.certainly not.as when the brahmin caste were made up many were initiated and given priestly class.see,world was not made as or in the caste structure as we see today.the chera dynasty were vellars/vellalars meaning people/lord of the spear.they were an ancient khsatriya class in kerala.buut as namboothiri came in and they brought the present nairs from ahichatra-an ancient town near rampur in u.p.they made up the royal and ruling class of kerala.they plundered buddhism and brought in brahmincal hinduism,with advent of shankaracharya thus was in the pinnacle form. so let us see as an aryan dynasty people mixed up with dravidian people.

Dear Jackson and all,

Let me take this time to thank all of you for a great debate like this.The dna does not prove anything as of such in the present way.but more into dna classification.as of now none of st.thomas christians that have cohen or j2 are not jewish.sorry,live with it.latest findings.

The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH)
Haplogroup J is a subdivision of F and is part of a grouping that includes haplogroups G, H, I, J and is prominent in the Caucasian Mountains, in the Balkans (hg G), amongst Middle East Peoples (hg J), some Indians (hg H), a portion of the Scandinavians, Germans, Bosnians, and Sardinians (hg I).
About 40% of Jews are haplogroup J.
The CMH is a subgroup of haplogroup J.
Even though J accounts only for 40% of the Jews as a whole it reaches more than 80% amongst the Cohanim.

The Jewish population is divided into Cohens, Levites, and ordinary Israelites who amongst the Jews are mostly from Judah and Benjamin.
<>

The Cohens are descended from Aaron the brother of Moses. They are the Priestly Caste. They were originally part of Levi but today they are perhaps more numerous than the Levites are. They also have an entirely different genetic structure from the Levites.

There are “Ashkenazic” (European) Jews and “Sephardic” (Mediterranean and Eastern) Jews.

Haplogroup J consists of an ancestral form (J*) and two subgroups J1 and J2.
<>

<>
<>

The CMH is a subgroup of haplogroup J.
Although you can have the CMH in either J1 or J2, it is the genetic signature in J1 that is considered the Jewish priestly signature.

<>
48% of Ashkenazi Cohanim and 58% of Sephardic Cohanim have the J1 Cohen Modal Haplotype (Skorecki et al. 1997).

To sum up, about 40% of the the Jews are hg J (both J1 and J2) whereas for Cohanim the figure is ca. 80% out of which about half (ca. 40%) have the CMH whereas for Jews who are not Cohens only ca. 3% have the CMH. Most Cohens who are J1 are also CMH wheas most non-Cohen J1 Jews are not.
Does CMH Define the Cohens?
No.
About half the Cohens do not have CMH and CMH is also found in other peoples.

CMH Amongst Non-Jews
Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin
“Are today’s Jewish priests descended from the old ones?”
HOMO: Journal of Comparative Human Biology – Zeitschrift fuer
vergleichende Biologie des Menschen
51:2-3 (Urban & Fischer Verlag, 2000): 156-162.
Zoossmann explains that:

* The Cohen modal haplotype is the most common haplotype among
Southern Italians*1, Central Italians*2, Hungarians*3, and Iraqi
Kurds*4, and is also found among many Armenians*5 and South African Lembas*6. .

cf. J.E. Elkins
<> An Updated World-Wide Characterization of the Cohen Modal Haplotype. J.E. Ekins et al.

Is the CMH the result of a one-time only mutation (UEP, Unique Event Polymorphism) as conventionally explained?

The CMH CANNOT BE the result of a single event but can only be explained as a recurring phenomenon effecting a change that after taking place is passed on by hereditry. It mainly takes place within haplogroup J but in 3% of the cases has also been recorded outside of it.
To explain how this could be so we must clarify the difference between haplogroup and haplotype.
Haplogroups are determined by SNP (pronounced “snip”) while haplotypes are defined by STP.
<>.

In principle STPs have a faster rate of change than SNPs which are considered more stable. Different STPs may therefore be found on the one SNP. Different STPs define Haplotypes whereas differences in the SNP define the Haplogroup. Haplotypes should therefore be considered the same as subdivisions of Haplogroups. The problem is that the same Haplotype is found frequently in more than one Haplogroup. Haplotypes are transmitted by hereditry but they are an example of a typical REP (Repeat Event Polymorphism) that can occur more than once and in more than one context. They are an example of Identical Genetic Change that occurs in more than one place in more than one subject amd then are inherited and can be used to trace ancestry. Since the same changes however occur in other bodies their applicability is limited. If we knew what influences the occurence of the changes we could use the hereditry aspects. If for instance we were aware that groups within a certain area at a certain time were liable to have undergone the said changes when we later find these changes in other places we could assume that their ancestors had formerly sojourned in the affected regions at the time in question. This however would not be enough to determine hereditry though it could lead in that direction.
The CMH is a haplotype that occurs in J1, J2, and elsewhere:

<>
An Updated World-Wide Characterization of the Cohen Modal Haplotype.
J.E. Ekins et al.

Placing the occurrence of CMH outside of J to the side for the moment and concentrating on its occurrence only in J1 and J2 Giacomi made a proposal that superficially could explain the occurrence of CMH in both J1 and J2.

<>

Giacomi says that the CMH gave rise to J1. If this were so it would explain perhaps how CMH could be found in both J1 and J2. The explanation could be explained as saying that originally there was J2. CMH emerged as a haplotype in J2. From the CMH variety of J2 emerged J1. Originally all J1 would have had CMH but something happened, J1 changed and produced varieties mostly without CMH. Nevertheless CMH remained as a sub-group in J1 and also as a sub-group in J2 from which it had originally emerged. This scenario is a bit far-fetched and even Giacomi probably would not agree with it. It is however the only way the presence of CMH in both J1 and J2 can be explained while preserving the principle of it being the result of a one-time only event. The problem however is that CMH is considered YOUNGER than both J2 and J1 and therefore could not have fathered “J1”.

From: Dienekes Pontikos
The CMH can arise on a J1 and a J2 background independently. In addition to the CMH, there are numerous other haplotypes shared by both J1 and J2, and there is no reason to believe that the CMH in particular was the ancestral haplotype of haplogroup J. Actually, it was almost certainly not, because the CMH has a long DYS388-16, and ancestral J almost certainly had a short DYS388.
What Does the CMH Really Tell Us?
Question: We have seen from the above that CMH does occur at a much higher frequency amongst Cohans than amongst others. You have shown that CMH is also found in non-Jewish people. You have also shown that not all bearers of CMH are necessarily related to each other in anyway.
What is then is significance of CMH concerning Jews or people who think they may be Jewish?

Answer: CMH is more likely to appear in hg J (especially J1?) than in other haplogroups. Once CMH appears it is transmitted by hereditry. Since Cohens are the most likely to have CMH when CMH is found amongst Jews there is a higher than average chance that the Jew is a Cohen.

Assuming that our figures are correct if ca. 6% of Jews are Cohens and half of them are CMH then ca.3% of the Jews are CMH Cohens. We also understand that 3% of Jews who are not Cohens are CMH. If therefore we come across a Jew with CMH there is a probability factor of one out of two that he is a Cohan against a chance of 3 out of 100 when we do not know if he is CMH or not. In other words, half the Jews with CMH are Cohens and a Jew with CMH is ca.17 times more likely to be a Cohen than a Jew without CMH.
We can go further than this. Half the Cohens have CMH. Jews who are Cohens are aware of the fact because they have a family tradition that they are Cohens. There are however numerous reasons why this tradition would not always have been kept. We can exprect to find Jews who are Cohens and not aware of it. The number of Jews who are not Cohens (as far as they know) with CMH equals the numbers of Cohens who have it. It could be that many of these non-Cohen CMH Jews actually had a Cohan ancestor. Within Jews we can assume that CMH is particular to Cohens or almost so. Since twice as many Cohens as “Israelite-Jews” are hg J and half of these are CMH we are justified in regarding the CMH in Cohens as emerging amongst the Cohanim some time after the designation of their forefather Aaron the first Cohen! This explains why about half the Cohens are not CMH.

CMH is a haplotype that emerges spontaneously and after emerging remains to be transmitted by hereditry. This means that all Cohens who have CMH could be related to each other but CMH in non-Jewish peoples in most cases could be an independent phenomenon.
When CMH is found amongst non-Jews it does not indicate that the person has Jewish ancestry. If however additional evidence is available the presence of CMH may have some supportive value.

By analogy if ca. 14% of Irishmen have red hair versus only ca.7% for the non-Irish inhabitants of Glasgow, Scotland, and 10%(?) of Glasgow is Irish when we find a red-haired person in Glasgow there is (all other factors being the same) one chance in five (instead of one chance in ten) that the person is an Irishmen. This does not mean that all red-haired people are related to the Irish since not all red-hairs are kinfolk to each other even though red-hair is often an inherited trait.
Conclusion:
We see from the above that DNA changes take place spontaneously and repeatedly under certain conditions.
DNA haplogroups therefore have only LIMITED APPLICABILITY in determining common ancestry. They do however have some pertinence since once the DNA changes take place they are transmitted by hereditry. DNA may be able to tell us which groups of people were in the same areas at the same time and subject to the same influences even though they were not necessarily related to each other. More study on these matters is required.
The Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) demonstrates the use of DNA by possibly helping us to trace who is a Cohen within the Jewish Community. On the other hand the CMH also exemplfies the limitations of DNA studies when we find it appearing independently amongst other peoples and with no ancestral connection to Israel.

LET US BE PROUD IN WHAT WE ARE NOW IN LORDS NAME.

Dr. Saj Pakalomattom,

“LET US BE PROUD IN WHAT WE ARE NOW IN LORDS NAME.”

And what are we according to you ? Syrian Christians ? Agreed ! So…. from Syria ? Not exactly. Then what ? Brahmins ? Namboothiris ? Nairs ? etc etc ? Not entirely, not even close. I am not an adherant of “brahmin stories” nor of “jewish stories” or any puritarian claims. We are a multi-ethnic community and this is a historical and now a scientific fact !! Accept it or reject it, your choice. Because none of them as puritarian claims, cater to my logic or senses. So I’m over it. And I dont think I have to be “proud”, unless I contribute something towards the community’s betterment. Being “proud” about one’s ‘ancestry’ is something not fitting for the 21st century society. That era is gone. Nor do I say be ashamed of anything. Just lets not overdo it. Now the debate…….

CMH (Cohen Modal Haplotype) is NOT the same as actual Cohen haplotype. Lets get this clear first.

I did say earlier, what I had to comment has been commented in great detail. They are unfortunately scattered on various other threads becoz of questions being posed there and this thread being relatively new. Please read up. No repitition, no corrections on what I had been commenting on NSC wrt the DNA project outcome for almost a year now. Some of the earlier bloggers here might be well aware of what I was talking and still am.

Finally, I see you are “Pakalomattom”. Probably thats a reason for your strong objection to known facts and proposition of some other “hypothesized facts” supplied by “Namboothiri stories”. Im not against these stories. They are simply good to hear and makes my head swell for a minute and thats all it does for me. And I simply dont understand ur descriptions by quoting from various papers. Fortunately they support what the project also says as of now. Sorry for my lack of understanding.

And since you are from the Pakalomattom family, your best option to get “your facts” aligned with facts now known in research circles, is to contact the DNA project administrator Mr. Jacob Manakalathil who also is of Pakalomattom heritage and has undoubtedly proved to be a J2a4h Cohen (for heaven’s sake, NOT CMH). His email id is up on this page. Go ahead and propose your theories to him and let us all then know if that convinces you at all.

For additional information, this “fact” (which is not convincing to u) that (a percentage of) Nasranis have got the actual J2 Cohens among them and NOT just the so-called CMH (which is just a 12-marker modal as u elaborately described) has been verified, tested and confirmed by the existing Jewish (Cohen) researchers and related project persons and Family Tree DNA institute. This is not a hypothesis any longer nor awaits anymore confirmation. It is well known now to the above described people. So its not something coming as stories from someone or from some books. So people dont need to sound frustrated.

Go ahead, hear it yourself. And if all this sounds rubbish to you still, we have got many other topics on NSC to discuss and debate. Leave the genetics part to the persons concerned. You have the democratic liberty to dismiss it as nonsense. Many Thanks and Good Luck with your quest.

Jackson

(@ All, P.S.: KIndly read the various threads and comments on NSC related to any particular topic, esp. this topic of DNA and stuff, to see if the answers to your questions are already out there. It isnt very pleasant to repeat the same thing discussed and stated many times, and waste everyone’s time and NSC’s space, here. Then, if still not convincing, contacts are provided for verification. If nothing convinces, then there is no point of debate. Thanks.)

Actually haplogroup R is believed to have originated in India according to newer genetic studies. So is R1a, if anything ancient Indians migrated to Europe.

From my point of understanding, the Jews arrived in Kerala well after the demolition of their second temple around 70AD or even latter in the 4th century. Trade was flourishing between India and the middle east even before Christ. Unlike today, the trend was reverse, there was shortage of professionals in Kerala /India. Labour was brought from the middle east. St. Thomas was hired as a carpenter to work for the kings.

During the time of Christ even Afghanisthan was part of India. Taxila and kandhahar mentioned in Hindu epics are in today’s Afghanisthan which was ruled by the vedic Kushan kings then. King Vasudeva 1 was the prominent among them. St Thomas is said to have visited the Kushan courts and that of “almost lost from history” king Gandhoporous, now in Punjab. Recent excavation of some coins proved his existence.

The seat of the brahmanism was today’s Afghanisthan and parts of Persia. The fire worshipping parsi community was based in todays Iran. The brahmins were inspired by some of the customs of Parsees like wearing of the sacred thread, marrying with the fire as the witness,etc. The brahmins/Afghanis are thought to be the lost sheeps of Israel by some. After the inquisition of Islam, the brahmins and the parsees were forced to flee to India and south India in the eighth/ ninth century. so the chances that St. Thomas would have converted some brahmins in Kerala is a remote chance unless some brahmins who have come to Kerala for trade. The chances are that he could have converted some Jains and Buddhists. There were plenty of Jain temples at that time. Suthan Battery, Waynad Dt. boasts of one such old Jain temple if I am right. Fish was the symbol of Christians at that time may be because some of the followers were fishermen. The St. Mary’s church Niranam had a Jain temple in the vicinity it seems.

Yuz Asaf or St. Josaphat a catholic saint of the first century hails from today’s Afghanisthan/Pakisthan and is laid to rest in Roz Bal, Srinagar. His guru is Barlaam who is said to have converted him. Barleem and Josaphat can be found in famous literary works. Some Ahmedi Muslim believe that St. Josaphat is none other than Christ himself who survived crucifixtion and preached in India before dying in Srinagar. The Ahmedis are not accepted by other Muslims. At that time the Syriac christians had reached Kashmir, Leh, Laddakh, China and even Mongolia. The Catholic church dates St Josaphat to 4th century. You can find the Syriac Christian community in Tankse village, Ladakh even today. St Thomas could have made mutiple visits to India. St. Bartholomew had also preached in India.

Syriac language is not from Syria like most people think. The actual word is Syriac. Thereby Syriac Christians. Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke and Armaic is not a dead language, it is still spoken in some parts of northern Iraq and Syria. The land between the Tigris and the Euphrates is Mesopotamia, the land of the Babylonians, Assyrians and the Chaldeans. They are all related to each other. There was a great kingdom of Assyrians starting somewhere around 600 BC and reined until the beginging of Islam. The Kingdom covered the mediterranean regions starting from Libya to Persia. The Assyrians are mediterranean caucasoids. They were good in trade and commerce. It was these Assyrians who traded with Kerala, migrated and settled in Kerala around 200BC . So we are Assyrians not Syrians. Assyrians are fair skinned. Gee Varghese spelt Giwargis is a famous name among Assyrians.

Nineveh was the capital of Assyria. St.Thomas’s remains were taken to Edessa near here by a merchant. You can find Nineveh in the old testament. Assyrians are devout christians even today. They are persecuted every day in Iraq. Of the 1.4 million population 50% have already migrated to the west.

Once Islam spread along with Arabic, Syriac lost ground. St. Thomas spoke Syriac and is believed to be Assyrian. When christ was preaching in and around Jordan word spread in Kerala of a messiah who had come and were eager to meet him or to know more about the message he was preaching from God. Jesus died early and went to heaven. So the apostle came to Kerala on an invitation, he converted his own people first and not the Jews. Along with him came about 72 families comprising about 400 people.

The early churches had the synogogue like appearence inside the church and the people were half Jewish by nature which the Portuguese disliked and wanted to convert them to the western rite. (They suspected the worship of other spirits with similarities to the Holy Spirit ). This happened at the Synod of Diamper 1699 in Udayamperoor near Tripunithura, Ernakulam Dt. The church was divided into the Jacobite church (from which the Marthomites and Indian orthodox were derived) and the Syro Malabar church. The Syriac Christians filled the gap of Vysias in Kerala. After the Namboodiris came to Kerala, came the Nairs from Ahichaitra near todays Nainital/UP. The Chera Kings lost their supremacy. The Namboodiris or Kerala brahmins took the chance to fill the void. The remaining Nairs or serpent worshippers migrated to Bengal and to today’s Nagaland, the land of serpents. Today 91% of Nagas are christians. Some Nairs and Namboodiris may have converted duely after many centuries but defintely not in the first century.

Conclusively, a DNA test of the Syriac Christians shall be matched with the Assyrians to prove the link. Most of the Syriac christians married among fellow Syriac Christians so not much dilution can be felt. The Assyrians do not claim us one among them but they suspect some ancient link. We are St. Thomas Christians to them.

Comments and objections are welcome for my blog.

Actually Syrian Christians seem to be a mix of J2, L, H, R1 and R2 mainly. However the sample size might be too small to make a judgement. Here are the family tree dna results. More dna tests will have to be conducted to see if there is a influence from middle east. There appears to be considering the high amount of J’s compared to the local population. Lot of the J’s that have a detail test done seemed to be grouped in J2a4 which seem to be at a higher concentration in middle east. Nonetheless more detailed tests will have to be done with a huge sample size or more people will have to sign up for tests in family tree dna.

R1 – 25%, L – 25 %, J2 – 25% , R2 + H – 25 %

Dear joseph parecattil
There are plenty of confusions in these immigration matter. i m just sharing those which knaya thommen brought people from syria and many of them were from jerusalem too. some say there was another armeanian immigration to kerala. mar sabor iso and mar afroth mass immigation to qulion believed to be assyrian babloyanian..some say these were actuallly persian nazranes( jewish exile in babalyon) migrated. yes sometimes say knaya thommen was an armenian merchant. also people talk about the jacobite recent immigration from syria that we laterly got the west syric liturgy and in the past we been using east syric nestorian syles. so when jacobites arrive recently then actually we have a chance of arab christians or syrian people got malabar… and i think from that connections of these forefatheres had some extra contacts of marriages the knanaya orginated which i m only thinking for myself and i m not saying this as a clear history. so on that way we cannot think we had west syic liturgy and syian people got kerala and knanaya thommen connected to that seems not quiet true. knanaya people think any of these that they we people from juduea and they r from the south of isreal something which all we hear the stoies in different times. and i think few brahimns families might have joined to nasranis and i was thinking these brahimsn mixed in to these semitics and yet we all have dravidian influences. it believe to be many forefather were from populated mixed keralites jews joined to nasranis also at early times. the dna r joined to the assyrian project mr alexander exactly matches to me and ours family history says brahimns converted from kalliankavu and the branches spreaded out. but i believe many elders in my hometown ranny look like persians may be assyrians but not quite syrians or arab christians. but my mother family looks like they are more arab christians or sryians.

Mr. Kizakken you are right! M is there most parts of the world. L can be found in Ethiopia and the Arabian Peninsula as well. The reason it is found in the Malaya Peninsula is the trade that was between Arabia and the Malacca straits. It is also found in India. H is noble and royal. H is found in Europe also. M is also found among Dravidians because the Dravidians took the sea route to come to India. The ancient tamil texts silpathigaram and manimehalai quotes about a place called Thenmadurai which consisted of 12,000 streets now sunk under the Indian ocean between Somalia and the Kerala coasts. No one knows how old Tamil is. It is but the oldest living language today. Dravidians are no ordinary people. They are very practical people. May be due to the suppression they look ordinary now. The haplotype L 385a is also found around the arabian gulf.

I think the Armenian settlement in Kerala is none other than Ranni. (Only I think!) The next nearest settlement is Chennapattana or Chennai. Though the number of Armenians has reduced to a handful in Chennai, they are still there in Chennai. The Armenian Church still functions at Armenian Street near Parry’s in the port area. The Armenians were the much sought after business men by the nawab of Arcot which is also near Chennai. The Armenians could be the care takers of the grave of St. Thomas. The grave was in not so far away Mylapore. The famed San Thome church stands on the grave site. The Portuguese were stunned to find the tomb of St. Thomas in Mylapore. The Portuguese is said to have built the San Thome Church. They also bullt the old Velankanni Church after the aparition of St. Mary near Velankanni. The Amenians and the Assyrians were all in touch. The remains of St.Thomas were taken to Edessa by a merchant. Hardly 10 family names exist in India.

Knaya means merchant, Knayaya may be for merchant community. Knayas are like our Vysyas. The church worship of Armenians along with their cousins Assyrians, Nestorians, Chaldeans, Jacobites, etc were Jewish in nature. Like the icon of burning bush of the Jews, the twelve tribes icon were part of their church settings. The Nestorian belief was different. They believed that Jesus was born human and became divine after the baptism. He died on the cross and never rose again!?. His soul alone went to heaven!.

The dropping of surnames by Knanaya community and taking Malayalam surnames made it difficult for identification. Definetely their looks are stunning. If a DNA database of the Armenians are available it is worth comparing with the Knanayas to identify their actual surnames. “If not we can strike out this possibility”. The thekkumbars and vadakkumbars are references for south and north of Kerala and not south and north of Judea. The vadakkumbars may be the Trichur nasranis and businesmen who do not mix business with charity. The Trichur nasranis also look different in a different way. Both are fair skinned. Some say there was also a wave of warrior class Nair conversion in the 10th century mostly in parts of Central Travancore. It may be the reason for the fair skin of some native nasranis. Later to increase the numbers there was plenty of conversion from the native Indians. This mix brought about a super breed of Kottayam nasranees. The rift among the churches today is attributed to the warrior blood in them reported a newspaper in 2005.

Look at the trail of the Aryans starting from India to Germany. You will not find even a single remarkable historic monument. There was war everywhere. They were at each other’s throat and dynasties were destroyed. They couldn’t build a stable government anywhere. I do not take any pride in saying that I belong to the Indo- Aryans even if I was an Aryan convert to which most of the upper caste in India belongs. Hitler, the Aryan wanted to build a world empire for Aryans, the third Reich. He wanted to achieve what the Romans, Greeks & Egyptians achieved. The subject of racism was started by the Aryans. They cannot live in harmony with themselves and with the other ethnic groups. Millions of people died in the Second World War. They were not as brainy as the Anglo- Saxon even though the Anglo- Saxons hail from Germania. The majority of the Indian Aryan descent is from the Asia minor or Turkey. The Swastika was the symbol of the Hittites of Asia Minor. Today the Brahmins are different; they eat and drink what they are not supposed to do. They do jobs which are not improper to their clan. The Brahmins do not wish to stay among Brahmins and would rather like to mingle. Some Brahmins even do not wish to give their identities as Brahmins. Definitely I too do not wish to say I was converted from Brahmins if at all I were. Some people in Kerala take pride in it.

The Assyrians were powerful people until they worshipped their Lord Ashur. The crescent and star symbol which is being used today by Islam once belonged to the Assyrians. The persecution they are suffering is never ending some say they wish to go back to their old lord.

The Armenians came to India well before Christianity. The passing army of Alexander gathered troops in Armenia on their way to India. If an army can travel well over thousands of mile it would have been a superhighway of that time. No trouble in Armenians coming to India. Surat was a gateway harbour for the Armenians who came by ship from Persian and Chaldean ports. The first visit of St.Thomas was by ship to an utraceable city called Andrapolis. Andrapolis may be on the mouths of the River Godavari or near Guntur, Andhra Pradesh because there was a surprise find of Telugu Jews in Andhra Pradesh. They spoke Judeo Telugu like our Cochin Jews who spoke Judeo- Malayalam. Judeo Malayalam had more Tamil words than Malayalam because Tamil was the lingua franca of Kerala then. The Tamil used was ‘Vengala’ Tamil or SenTamil. Likewise St. Thomas could have travelled through the Persia- Baluchisthan route taken by the Alexander Army to Punjab. Even today there exists a Greek Village in Malana in Himachal Pradesh with its own autonomous government called the Republic of Malana or Little Greece. They have a president and a prime minister too. They were left behind by Alexander’s Army. So the westerners coming to India and having settled in India is no great news and that they have settled in Kerala is a not miracle. India was a land of asylum seekers and there are plenty of asylum seekers among syriac christians.

The family Tree DNA project should be made very lucrative and easily accesable in India. When more people join the rates may come down. Hope it can have a center in Kerala. People of Kerala are very proud to say they are from the family of St. Thomas or the first converts. Looks like there will be lots of takers for the project.

Mr. John Mathew,

In 2005 when there were lots of trouble in the orthodox churches, The Indian Express had come out with an article and cited the reason for the indifferences. If you have access to the archives of Indian Express somewhere between June 2005 and September 2005 you are likely to find in one of their supplementary pages. The Ezhavas also belong to the warrior class. They were experts in Kalari. It is said that some Ezhavas converted to Christianity, Buddhism and even Sikhism to avoid suppression Later the Buddhists and the Sikhs returned to Hinduism. The Ezhavas also share their occupation with Gounders of Tamilnadu, Gouds of Andhra pradesh and Gowdas of Karnataka. Plenty of Nairs have dual faith today and do not wish a conversion. Many believe that Jesus is an avatar of Viswanathan, the Almighty.

Now about the Aryans. As an author to the blog I cannot desparage anybody. I should tred the middle lane and shouldn’t be racial/fanatic. The First World War defeat of Germany was the reason for the Second World War. Germany was ridiculed with the technological advantage of the British, the Battle tanks were introduced then. Hitler felt that Aryans did not make a mark in the world and believd that he can achieve militarily and technologically. But could n’t. Because he was in a hurry. The Atom Bomb was still on the drawing boards. The Americans finished completed them early. Many of the techniological changes we notice today is German. The Americans and the Russians shared the German scientists after the war. The Jet Engine was invented by Germans. Now where is the desparage? One should look at the final outcome. Did they rule the world? No! They lost the war and the allies became more powerful with their inventions. The Americans police the world today. There is a gypsy clan in Germany today called the ‘Sindhis’. They speak Sindhi! Certainly there was a migration of Aryans between Asia and Europe. They are big losers. The other word for Aryan is Iran! But the Britishers are mean. They have a reason to be proud and they are proud people. They even call their own country GREAT as in GREAT BRITAIN! The German Aryans invented all except the RADAR during II world war. Today I am an arduant admirer of Germany and I use plenty of German products. The Germans came a long way in a short time from the time they were called Barbarians to the technological advanced Germans today. The majority of scientific publications are in German today. There was migration from all directions. There are caucausian lineages even in the P*r*iah and P*ll*n communities of Tamilnadu and Kerala. They share about 10% lineages with the Iyers and Iyengars of Tamilnadu!!!! Definietely some threads lie within Syriac Christians also because of mixed marriages. The Assyrians were no match to the Europeans.

More interesting facts about Assyrians/Syriac speaking people come from Kuruvilangad in Kottayan Dist from the church of Martha Mariam Catholic church. There stands a second century cross. These are the inscriptions on the base of the cross;

In punishment by the cross (was) the suffering of this one;
He who is the true God, and God above and Guide ever pure.”
My Lord Christ, have mercy upon Afras son of Chaharbukht the Syrian, who caused this cross to be cut.”
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

More interesting wordings come from the cross at Kadamuttom church in Ernakulam district from where tha famed “kadmuttathu katthanar” hails from.

I, the beautiful bird of Nineveh has come to this land. , who was saved by the Holy Messiah from misery.” Written by me Shapper.

Nineveh was the capital of Assyria.

The church belongs to the Oriental orthodox. There are plenty of proof that the Assyrians/Armenians were the original people who settled in Kerala before christ. and not Jews or Jewish converts or Brahmins. The Brahmins if at all they were converted they could have been converted after the ninth century after their arrival in Kerala. St. Thomas had been to today’s Afghanisthan/Pakisthan as well as Kerala, Tamil Nadu( Chennai) and Andhra Pradesh (Andhrapolis!). A cross similar to the kadamottom and Kuruvilangad was found in Taxila (Thakshashila), Afghanisthan.

So we have the Assyrians/ Armenians, Persians, Indo Aryans and Dravidians among Syrians christian churches today. When the British left India, the WASP churches or the White Angle – Saxon Protestant churches were handed over to the Native Indian caretakers of the church like the chefs,gardeners, bell tollers, etc. who formed later the CSI church and their north Indian counter parts formed the CNI church. (No harm intended). The natives can never become the members of the WASP churches because they were highly racial. The Marthoma Church is an Indian protestant church formed by the grace of the British taking advantage of the quarrel among the various orthodox factions. Due to this similarity as protestants, there are plenty of marriages taking place between the Marthoma and CSI church members. But I do not understand how the Othodox and Jacobites also marry the CSI and the Marthomites. The Jacobites and Orthodox are not protestants. If the Jacobites-Orthodox marry the Marthomites it can be termed at least as blood brothers and sisters since the Marthomites had broken away from the Jacobites/Orthodox. So we have the main source of mix from the native Indians to form a super breed. There is one more king of Super breeds- The Pentecosts. They have members drawn from all churches. The Catholics, Knanaya. Jacobites, CSI, Hindus and who ever can be termed Keralites. I met a person who boasted himself as “Syrian Pentecost” Now how can we term the Syriac Christians by Ethinicity – It is a “Couldron full of Ethinicities”. An Assyro-Aryo-Dravidian commuinty. In more perfect words “An Avial” That’s the reason why Keralites may be a super breed of smart and efficient people. In more ways “over smart”.

Sir,

Your statement in earlier post ‘..H is noble and royal…’

Where are you from? Are you in kintergarten?

tamil iyengars also have j2a as the predominant haplotype.does that have any relation with j2 found in syrian chrisitians

I agree, it makes no sense for St. Thomas to come to India to convert Indians and teach them Aramaic. His mission was to spread the word of Christ to the Jews first and then to the gentiles. St. Thomas went from the Middle East to India. My hometown of Niranam was visited by St. Thomas and is where he founded one of seven and a half churches. We know that he went to the locations where there were large Jewish communities. Niranam did have a Jewish trading community back then. My dad also told me that we have Jewish ancestry after asked him. It makes a lot sense considering the fact my dad looks Middle Eastern. I also wanted to know where the name Kourth comes from because it’s a very rare name in Kerala. Kourth is a common name in Greece and my dad’s family has that name. I know that Kerala traded with Greece back in ancient times and there were Greek settlements in Kerala. Can someone help me out with finding the origin of the name Kourth? I don’t know if I had any Greek ancestors in the family tree. The more history unfolds, the more complicated genetics will be.

@Michael Varghese

Kourth and Kourti are Greek last names or surnames. They are NOT first names among the greeks. It is not uncommon to have Greek names among Nasranis. Its the influence of Greek and Greek Christianity on Eastern Christianity in general if I’m not wrong. Even the Jews had Greek names like Paul, Peter, Andrew, Stephen etc. Doesnt neccesarily mean there were Greek ancestors in the family. Most probably a cultural influence on Syriac Christianity, as Greek Christianity is also Eastern Christianity. It may also be a rare name which many Nasranis are not using anymore. Changing times.

So names like Paulose, Kurialose, Pathrose, Sebastianose, Kuriakose, etc are purely Greek. I couldnt find the meaning of the surname Kourth/Kourti though. As we know, many last names have no meanings if they have abstract origins or derived from place names, etc! Cant help more on this for now.

Thanks

RE: Kourth, etc.

I don’t know if they might have butchered another name, but I know that people in Kerala have misspelled names in the past. My great grandfather’s name was Kourth Varghese, my grandfather’s name was Geevarghese Kourth, and my dad’s name is Geevarghese Kourth Varghese. The name Kourth has been passed down, but I don’t know anything before my great grandfather. I asked my dad about the name and he said that it wasn’t a common name. He also told me that another family also has the same name as well. Can this mean that it used to be a common name until recent centuries just like the Persian names? I don’t think I have that many priests in the family, most people are doctors, engineers, businessmen, or nurses. I did a lot of research on this name and it always went back to Greece. I have no clue what this name means unless I ask someone from Greece.

The name is spelled Kourth not Koruth. I don’t know if it ended up being used as a Christian name, because it’s not a common name. Yes, the pattern does show that it has been given to the eldest son in each generation. I know that names like these question peoples minds more and think more about history because it definitely did for me.

In post 17255, Cyril Abraham had posted his test results. (http://nasrani.net/2007/02/18/familytree-syrian-christians-dna-project/?cid=17255).

393/12, 19/16, 391/10, 439/12, 389-1/12, 389-2/18, 388/15, 390/24, 426/11, 385a/14, 385b/17, 392/11

Cyril, can you please confirm if the value of 389-2 is 18 or 28?

thanks,
Kezhakken

Michael: Interesting; I guess you need to now establish that “Kourth” (your family name) is a Greek name. Yes, it sounds like a Greek name with the defn that you just discovered, but is it actually Greek? Do you have any traditions that suggest this (that it is Greek) or the definition (that your ancestors were assistants to Greek kings).

It seems like stretch to me because I don’t think this is likely, unless one of your ancestors was a Greek who came to India in the last four hundred years (some Greeks were reported to have come along with the various West Syriac bishops, though I don’t know how accurate the term “Greek” is in those reports, since there is a giant divide between West Syriacs and Byzantine/Catholic bonafide Greeks).

Perhaps you should also investigate whether the name has a Syriac parallel. The Syriacs (especially the West Syriacs) have a large number of Greek loan words, as well as Greco-Roman names in their culture. Assuming Korth isn’t a mangling of Korah/Koruth/etc., and assuming that it is a foreign name, I’d put my money on it being of Syriac origin as opposed to direct Greek.

Good luck in your search … please update us when you find something more.

John Mathew, thanks for the insight. It would be nearly impossible for me to find evidence that Kourth came from a Greek ancestor. I’m very positive that the name Kourth didn’t come from any recent family members. My family is just like any typical Malayalee family, so I don’t think we do anything differently. Besides, I think there is no way to trace more than two thousand years of history unless a genetic testing is done. Do these genetic testings actually tell a person anything about their ancestry? There is this article on this website called “Early references about the Apostolate of Saint Thomas in India, Records about the Indian tradition, Saint Thomas Christians & Statements by Indian”, it is a very interesting read, but I don’t know how much of it is true. There is a quote from this article about Greeks being in Kerala, “It is therefore quite possible that when driven away by the invaders, Habban, the kings merchant and his friend Saint Thomas chose as a place of safety one of those harbors of South India, Muziris for example, where there were many Jews, Syrians, Greeks etc.” Let me know what you think about this.

Sure, Malabar had trade relations with everyone; Romans, Greeks, Persians, Assyrians, Jews, Chinese, etc.

But I don’t think any trace of that exists in our names, apart from the obvious Jewish/Christian/Greek names that we possess: but that merely indicates our Christian *religion*, and not our ancestry. For example, many Kerala Christians, including converts, have the name Alex, George, Cyril, Stephan, Mark, etc. Those are bonafide Greek names: they’re not even Christian names, strictly speaking, they are pure Greek names. Does that mean that those people are of Greek extraction? No. How about those that use the Syriacized Greek names “Kurian” or “Gewargis”? No they are not necessarily of Syriac ancestry. And same with people using the names “Mathai”, “John”, “Korah/Koruthu” etc: they are not of Jewish ancestry, necessarily.

Names mean nothing. Even last names mean nothing because our last names are just the first names of our ancestors, which are just assigned on some basis (e.g., due to religion, we may take a Judeo-Christian name, or a Greek name with Christian precedents).

I think the best course of action is to take one of those geneological DNA tests. That would at least give you your father’s father’s father’s … ancestor. As others have reported here, there is evidence of various interesting, diverse origins that can be found from those tests.

My point: just researching a name doesn’t necessarily give one any evidence of what your ancestral origins were. Unless, of course, you have recent Greek ancestors (like I said, from one of those monks and their families that came over in the last four hundred years; St Gregorios of Parumala is a descendant of a Syriac priest/monks brother, for example). Then Korth as a Greek name would make sense.

As far as I can see, a major immigration of Persians came in the 8/9th century to Kollam. There are several families that claim descend from this around Kollam/Kallada/Thevelakkara. Yet do the ancient names of their ancestors remain? Nope. I haven’t seen any people named Isodat or SabrIsho or Aphrahat in our community, have you?

Names get introduced, removed, appropriated, borrowed, discontinued, adapted, etc. They are unreliable for tracking ancestry.

Unless your name is Ezra or Eliayah or something like that and possess a cut foreskin. Then perhaps you’d have enough evidence to claim bonafide Hebrew ancestry!

Dear all
Ftdna family finder is only $99 till 26th july . instrested poeple can use this offer

Results of DNA tests done on excavations in Pattanam:
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/another-bit-of-pattanam-puzzle-found/article5005335.ece

Genetically Kerala Christians are a Mostly a mix of Brahmin/Nairs probably contributing about 70 – 80%, 20 – 30 % from Lower Castes and 0 – 10 % (Assyrians from Turkey plus Jews). There is lot of variation within the christians itself. I have listed a sample below. He is simliar to a rajput or brahmin with some middle eastern genes – probably about 5 %. If Anyone is interested please go to familytreedna.com or 23andme.com to get dna analysis done and further analysis can be done in GEDMATCH.COM like below

1 S-Indian 46
2 Baloch 35
3 Caucasian 8
4 NE-Euro 3.3
5 SW-Asian 3
6 SE-Asian 2
7 Siberian 1
8 NE-Asian 1
9 American 1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.06
2 rajasthani (harappa) 3.56
3 maharashtrian (harappa) 3.85
4 tn-brahmin (xing) 4.12
5 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 4.17
6 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 4.23
7 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 4.72
8 meghawal (reich) 4.79
9 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 4.91
10 ap-brahmin (xing) 5.17
11 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 5.18
12 kerala-nair (harappa) 5.36
13 up (harappa) 5.43
14 gujarati (harappa) 5.75
15 bihari-muslim (harappa) 5.82
16 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 6.11
17 bihari (harappa) 6.42
18 up-kshatriya (metspalu) 6.63
19 cochin-jew (behar) 6.63
20 gujarati-b (hapmap) 6.9

A crypto-Dravidian origin for the nontribal communities of South India based on human leukocyte antigen class I diversity.

Thomas R1, Nair SB, Banerjee M.
Author information
Abstract
The Dravidian communities are considered to be the original inhabitants of India, now restricted to South India. The southern most state, Kerala, is socio-culturally stratified into Hindus, Muslims and Christians on the basis of religion. The origin of these religious communities in Kerala is considered to be unique in comparison with that in other parts of the country. These communities were later influenced by the hierarchical caste structure established by the Hindu Brahmins. In the present study, we compared six nontribal (Namboothiri, Nair, Ezhava, Pulaya, Malabar Muslim and Syrian Christian) communities belonging to the major religious groups in Kerala (Hindu, Muslim and Christian) based on the human leukocyte antigen (HLA)-A, -B and -C diversity. Our aim was to understand the genomic substructuring associated with the changing social scenario in various caste and religious groups and compare it with the Dravidian tribal and other world populations. The present study reveals that the HLA diversity of the Dravidian communities is very distinct from that in the other world populations. It is obvious that the nontribal communities of Kerala display a greater Dravidian influence, but traces of genetic admixture with the Mediterranean, western European, central Asian and East Asian populations can be observed. This characterizes the crypto-Dravidian features of the nontribal communities of Kerala. Demic diffusion of the local progressive communities with the migrant communities may have given rise to crypto-Dravidian features among the nontribal communities of Kerala.

Indians are not descendants of Aryans, says new study http://m.indiatoday.in/story/indians-are-not-descendants-of-aryans-study/1/163645.html

My paternal grandfather is said to have came from an ancient Brahmin home name given by “Pakalomattam”,he even have some record books with him. My maternal grandmother came from an ancient well known community too. In a nutshell we’ve to discard the brahmin theory and accept the fact that we’ve more jewish DNA than brahmin-aryan dna.