The Edicts, Copper Plates and Privileges- Quilon (Tarisapalli) plates, Thazhekad edict, Iravi Kortan plate and Cana Thomman plate
The Rulers gave the Nasranis various rights and privileges which were written on edicts and copper plates. These are also known as Cheppeds, Royal Grants, Sasanam etc.
The languages of these Copper plates are Tamil, Pahlavi and Vattezhuthu. Though differences of opinion exist among the exact dating of each copper plates, there is a consensus that some of these are dated from 9th century. It is possible that any other record preserved in any other languages in the first few centuries of Saint Thomas Syrian Christian history might have been on palm leaves as was the practice at that time. This could have lost in the humid climate in Kerala.
These are evidences to substantiate the fact that there were a number of Christians both migrated from the Coromandel regions and from West Asia, along with the local Christians in the ninth century in Malabar, actively involved in overseas and internal trade. They were highly respected by the local rulers who gave them several social and economic privileges. The presence of these Christians in Kollam, Cranganore etc which were well known ports having commercial contacts with various parts of the world buttresses the argument that they were engaged in trade and commerce and had close contact with West Asian regions. The rights granted to them by the local rulers permitted them to collect taxes, administer justice, fix the prices of commodities, retain the share of taxes until grievances are redressed. They were thus invited to participate in the governance of the area along with the officials of the King. (( Dr. K S Mathew- “ Saint Thomas Christians in Malabar from the 9th to the 16th Centuries” ))
There are a number of such documents in the possession of the Syriac Churches or with the Kerala State. At present some of these Christian copper plates and edicts are kept at different ecclesial jurisdictions of the denominations of Saint Thomas Christians.
The topics covered are, 1) Edicts and Copper plates in detail,1.1) The Quilon plates ,a) First set of Copper plates ,b) Second Set of Copper plates ,c) Languages ,d) Further history of Quilon and Iravi Kortan plates ,e) Preserved at, 1.2) Thazhekad Sasanam- edict, a) About the edict,1.3) Iravi Kortan Cranganore (Copper plate),a) About the plate, ,b) Preserved at, 1.4 Thomas of Cana plates, a) About the plates, 2.)Conclusion
1. Edicts and Copper Plates in detail
Some of the most important historical edicts/plates and privileges are known as Quilon Plates , Thazhekad Sasanam, Mampally Sasanam, Iravi Kortan plate and Cana Thomman plate etc. Of these the Quilon plates, Thazhekad sasanam edict, and Iravi Kortan plate are still extant. Cana Thomman plate is shrouded in mystery.
1.1 The Quilon plates
Two of the three Copper plate sets issued by Sthanu Ravi are related to the Saint Thomas Christians. These Copper plates brings to light the support extended by the local ruler to the Church at Kollam built by Mar Sabriso and to the Christians residing in the settlement there. They also shed considerable light on the position of the Christians. These plates are also known as Tarisapalli Copper plates.
In c. 822 AD two bishops, Mar Sabrisho and Mar Peroz ( Prodh) along with several families had migrated to Kollam These two bishops administered the whole of the Syrian Church, with Mar Sabrisho keeping his head quarters at Kollam and Mar Peroz ( Prodh) at Kodungalur. They were responsible for the construction of churches at many places in Kerala and the churches built by them were known as Kantheeshangal
a) First set of Copper plates
The first set of the Copper plates were issued circa 880 by Ayyanadigal, the King of Venadu to the Church called Tarisa Church built at Kollam by Sabriso, a merchant ( some suggest Sabriso as a merchant and Mar Sapor as Bishop) who refounded the city of Kollam in 825.
Four women of the Ilava caste together with their eight children and one family of the washerman group were given to the church for the menial services. As they were attached to the church, they were exempted from paying certain specified taxes and rates to the King. The King made the church the custodian of the steelyard and weights and kappan ( or seal) which were formerly in the possession of the King. Even though menial workers were of low caste and prohibited from entering in the fort of Kollam and the streets on account of their lower social status, they were allowed to do this in view of their services to the church. Besides the Kollam Church obtained the right to try cases of these people. All the privileges were granted by the King at the instance of Sabariso.
b) Second Set of Copper plates
King Ayyanadigal also granted another set of privileges through the Copper plates issued around 880 AD, slightly after than the first plate. This also refer to the Church of Kollam, the leaders of the Jews at Kollam and the authorized leaders of Manigramam or indigeniouns Christians of Kollam, who were there even before the arrival of Sabriso. The King granted one family of carpenters, four families of Vellalas and two of another caste and extensive land with in the specified limits. The Church obtained the right to try the case of the people living in the area granted to the Church. The Church and its lands were to be protected by the six hundred ( probably Vendau Militia) and the leaders of the Jews and the Manigramam. The Church was given the right to collect fees for weighing with the steelyard and weights mentioned in the previous set of copper plates.
c) Languages
These consist of five sheets of copper, fastened together by a ring passing through the holes pierced at the end of several plates. Of the ten pages of copper thus furnished, seven pages are written in Tamil and two pages are written in Pahlavi and Arabic with Kufic characters. Four of the signatures are in Hebrew.
d) General details
The Merchant guild which figure in these Copper plates are Manigramam, Anjuvannam and Persian Christians. The Sthanu Ravi plates point out a close connection between the Manigramam and the Christian community and that the members of Manigramam worked in cooperation with the Syrian Church. (( Dr. K S Mathew- “ Saint Thomas Christians in Malabar from the 9th to the 16th Centuries” ))
The Scholars who worked on epigraphic evidence in the study of South Indian guilds of the medieval period holds that the Sthanu Ravi plates indicate that, “ the Church sponsored and engaged in trade and in particular overseas trade”. Evidence of another period also suggest the Syrian Christians continued to be involved in overseas trade in the late medieval period. (( Meera Abraham-“ Two Medieval Merchant Guilds in South India” ))
Further more, there are many evidences about the early relationship of the Persian Church, the branch of Patriarchate of Seleucia Ctesiphon with India. Palladius, the fourth century writer, give references about Sassanid vessels in the Indian ocean. The active particiaption of Christian traders from Sassanid empire in the maritime trade is testified by many East syrian annals. Some time before 415 AD, as the eleventh century chronicle of Seert mentions, the Sassanid ruler Yazdigird I ( 399-421 AD) sent the East Syrian Catholicos, a certain Ahai, to Fars to investigate the piracy of ships returing from India and Ceylon. It is highly probable that the merchant guild in India- Ceylon and Persian Gulf were Christian and thus the Catholicos was in a better position to gather information about piratical attacks on them. It could also be because of support, as a Catholicos would be able to mobilize the Christian merchant settlers on the rim of Indian ocean to contain the problem of sea piracy. (( Pius Malekandathil -” Saint Thomas Christians and the Indian Ocean” ))
There were settlements of Christian merchants in Ceylon, Quilon, Sindabor or Goa, Kalyan etc.B E Colles is of the opinion that the East Syrians were not only zealous missionaries but also great traders. He refers to the account of Abraham Kashkar, a sixth century monk, who made his voyage to India as a merchant. He also mentions about Bar Sahde, who made several journeys to India before entering a monastery following the attack of his ship by the pirates. (( B E Colles- ” Persian Merchants and Missionaires in Medieval Malaya” A Mingana- ” Early Spread of Christianity in India ” ))
The account of East Syrian monk, Cosmas Indicopleustes ( 525 AD), mentions the important centers of Persian trade in the maritime space. Cosmas also speaks of the vibrant Christian communities of Male ( Malabar) and Kalliana ( Kalyan or Quilon) where the Bishop from Persia was residing.
e) Further history of Quilon and Iravi Kortan plates
The Franciscan John Marignola of Florence spent fourteen months at Quilon during the period April 1348- August 1349. He then returned to Europe via Mylapore, Ceylon and the Persian Gulf. He has maintained that Saint Thomas Christians ( as he uses) are much more numerous than the Mohammedans. As the Papel legate, he had received large gifts from the Christians. He also mentions that the Christians were the masters of the public weighing office. That is the seal is in their hands.
There are also references in which the local Christians asks the help of Afonso d Albuquerque who came to India in 1503. He made a peace treaty with Quilon and the Christians asks his help in restoring the privileges (that is the seal and the weight of the town ) which were removed form them by the King due to the fault of a person.
The Chaldean Bishop of Malabar, Mar Jacob Abuna, about 1530 entrusted to the care of Portuguese Governor of Cochin, Pedro de Sequiera, several metal tablets as the most precious treasure of his people. He had deposited all the Syrian Copper with the Factor of Cochin for safe custody with a condition for necessary access when required for the same.
The Portuguese documents of the early seventeenth century make mention of the special rights and privileges granted to the Christians at Quilon and copper plates containing these details preserved in the Church of Thevalakkara near Kayamkulam in Kollam.
In the Sixteenth century Jornada of Dom Alexis de Menezes, the Arch Bishop of Goa, the Portuguese historian Antonio de Gouvea mentions about the Olas of Copper sheets the Christians of Quilon showed him.
The Church at Teualecare (Thevallakara ) was situated in the lands of Queen of Changanate ( Kingdom of Quilon). The Archbishop Dom Alexis de Menezes stayed there for many days. Gouvea also writes that before the Archbishop Menezes, left for Kundara the Christians there brought big Olas of copper, written in diverse characters which contained many privileges and incomes, which the king who founded Coulao ( Quilon) gave to the church which was built by the two, who came from Babylonia, Mar Xabro ( Mar Saphor) and Mar Prohd (Mar Prodh). The Olas are retained by the Christians of this church as an invaluable treasure.
Before showing the Archbishop the Ola, they made him swear that he wont move it from there. They were afraid that the Archbishop would take that to Angamale, which being the current bishopric and having the archives there.
Franciscso da Costa who was the writer at the Portugues factory at Cochin for many years was very familiar with many documents in the factory. He writes in 1613, that this grant was made to ( at the instance of) two Armenian brothers who founded that Church in 825, ie 782 years before 1607. He alludes to the authority of the Archbishop of Angamali, Bishop Francis Roz who read the copper plates of Thevalakara. He also writes about the Copper plates issued by Cheraman Perumal at Cranganore and the construction of a big church in the name of Saint Thomas.
After their surrender of Cochin fort to Dutch in 1661 AD, Portuguese were not allowed to take anything belonging to the Church. When Dutch were defeated by British, they left Cochin fort to British and handed them all the documents. Mr. Vam Spall had authenticated the vouchers for that. Many of the books/ manuscripts written by Portuguese and Dutch in this collection were burnt by British later on.
According to Captain Charles Swanston ( In Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society in January 1883) Colonel Macaulay, was able to locate the Plates using these vouchers in 1806 AD.
The Copper plates which were found during this search are,
(1) the grant to Iravi Kortan of Cranganore,
(2) the two set of plates of the grant given to Mar Sabrisho and Mar Peroz ( Prodh) of Quilon.
The mysterious Thomas of Cana plates were missing. Colonel Macaulay handed over all these copper plates to the Malankara Syriac Orthodox (Jacobite) Metropolitan.
All of them remained together till the time of Malankara Syriac Orthodox Metropolitan, Mar Mathew Athanasius. During 1876 AD, in the disputes between Mar Mathew Athanasius and Mar Dionysius, the former produced only four plates in court and said that they were all that he had with them. It may be that the other two plates were lost or that they were withheld by interest parties. The missing Plates were the first and last pages of the Second grant. They are very important because the first plate contains name of the soverign who granted it and the time of granting and the last plate bear the signatures of the witness in Pahlavi, Kuffic and Hebrew characters. The court handed over the plates to the care of Mar Dionysius, the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Metropolitan.
The set of plates remained split up until the missing two plates of the second set was found by Gopinath Rao in the Bishop house of Mar Titus II, Tiruvalla of the reformed Syrians, the Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church.
f) Preserved at
Except the first and last plate belonging to the second set, all other plates are kept at the Old Seminary in Kottayam- Malankara Orthodox Syriac Catholicosate, Kottayam. The two sheets are kept at Malankara Mar Thoma Syrian Church, Metropolitanate in Tiruvalla
1.2 Thazhekad Sasanam- Edict
Thazhekad, is the site of one of the earliest Nasrani communities in Kerala. It was once a prosperous inland port, during heydays of Muziris.
a) About the Edict
The King Rajasimha Perumal of Thazhekad Sasanam granted special rights and privileges to the Nazranies. It is one of the earliest surviving edicts granting special privileges to the Nasranies. The edict was written on a stone and mentions privileges granted to traders. The leaders of the traders were Chathan Padukan and Iravi Kothan. It mentions Cherupally and the traders were expected from paying tax, enabled them to fix the prices of commodities and retain the share of taxes until grievances are redressed. The edict is estimated between 8th and 10th century. This Church was ravaged by Tippu Sultan’s army, during his invasion of the south between the period, 1789-1792.
b) Preserved at
The edict is preserved in Thazhekad St Sebastian church, Syro Malabar Church under Irinjalukuda diocese. A Malayalam translation of the edict is also available at the site.
1.3 Iravi Kortan Cranganore (Copper Plate)
Veera Raghava Chakravarti issued a copper plate to Iravi Kortan in 1320 AD at Kodungallo or Cranganore.
a) About the plate
This is a single copper plate of 14 inches by 4. He was given the office of Manigramam, most probably the headship of merchants of Cranganore. He obtained several social privileges, monopoly of overland and seaborne trade. The donor made all other merchants and five artisan classes ( like the Carpenter, blacksmith, etc) subservient to Iravi Kortan. He was given brokerage on all sorts of goods and also customs duty or toll. The King permitted his descendants to enjoy these privileges and rights as hereditary grants. It is in old Tamil letters with some Grantha letters intermingled.
b) Preserved at
At the Old Seminary in Kottayam- Malankara Orthodox Syriac Catholicosate, Kottayam
1.4 Thomas of Cana plates
Thomas of Cana, the Bishop who arrived in ninth century ( the immigrant leader who arrived in 345 AD according to the current Southist tradition) is said to have received a Copper plate. These are also known as Cana Thomman plates. This is shrouded in mystery and no one knows where the Cana Thomman plates are. According to some, the plates were reported missing during Portuguese possession.
A manuscript at British Museum contains a Portuguese translation of a plate by a learned Jew. Those were claimed to be of Thomas of Cana plates. According to some Portuguese reports this exist in Arabic langauge, which seem to indicate very late origin after 9th century. Some scholars has suggested that the claimed Thomas of Cana plates are the same Quilon plates. Some others has suggested that it was a grant given to the Church at Cranganore. There is no general agreement and there are no evidences concerning the Thomas of Cana Copper plates.
2. Conclusion
The different edicts/ plates which are in possession of the Nasranis are the most significant available early influence on the extensive historical process that led to the rule of law today in India. These grants resemble those issued to temples in early medieval India.
It is often referred as Indian Magna Carta. James Hough, writes about Quilon Plates “ It may be doubted whether there exists in the world any document of so great length which are of equal antiquity and in such faultless preservation as the Christian Tablets of Malabar”. (( James Hough- “ The History of Christianity in India, London 1839 pp103-4 ))
It influenced the development of the social structure in Kerala and privileges, rules for other communities such us Jews at a later date. These are considered as one of the most important legal documents in the history of Kerala.
Picture Courtesy
-Alphy
Further Reading-
Dr. K S Mathew- “ Saint Thomas Christians in Malabar from the 9th to the 16th Centuries”
Hermann Gundert- “ Ancient Documents” “ Translation” The Madras Jorunal of Literature, Vol XIII , Part I
Kukkil Kelu Nair- “ Translations” The Madras Jorunal of Literature, Vol XIII , Part I
William Logan- Malabar Manual, Vol II, 1989
T K Joseph- “ Malabar Copper plates” Kerala Society Paper
Gopinath Rao- Travancore Archaeological Series Part I, Madras, 1916
Joseph Kolengadan – “Saint Thomas Christians in Malabar from the 9th to the 16th Centuries”
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Author can be reached on admin at nasrani dot net
Last Update- September,9th 2009
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I am here to share and learn. If the site demands the participation of biased followers then just inform me about the disapproval. History and faith is like water and oil, its hardly synchronous. Also I find this site very informative and some of the respondents are really genuine and educative. I have also recommended this site to many.
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“In 1806 at the suggestion of Rev. Claude Buchanan, Colonel Macauly, the British resident, ordered a careful search for them and they turned up in the record room of Cochin.
The following copper plates were found by these search,
(1) the grant to Irani Kortton of Cranganore,
(2) the set of plates of the grant to Mar Sapir Iso of Quilon,
One of the older grant is on a single copper plate ( 14 inches by 4) , said by Dr. Burnell to be of date 774. It is a grant by King Vira Raghava Chakravarti to Iravi Korttan of Cranganore, making over to him the territory of Manigramam and investing him with the Rank of Prabhu or merchant. It is in old Tamil letters with some Grantha letters intermingled…………………………………….
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Coming to the point regarding this article (NSC admin) I have some points in contradiction. i just wonder how the author procured the snaps of copper plates and information.
CHRISTIAN RESEARCHES IN ASIA
By Claudius Buchanan
Published 1849, Oxford University
Page 73
The Christian tablets are six in number. They are composed of mixed metal. The engraving on the largest plate is thirteen inches long by about four board. They are closely written, four of them on both sides of the plate, making in all eleven pages. On the plate reputed to be the oldest, there is writing perspicuously engraved in nail-headed or triangular headed letters resembling the persopolitan or babylonish>>>( It is in old Tamil letters with some Grantha letters intermingled…………………………………….) On the same plate there is writing in another character which is supposed to have no affinity to any existing character in Hindustan……… The Christian and Jewish plates together make fourteen pages. A copy was sent in first instance to the pundits of the sanskrit college in Trichur, by direction of the Rajah of Cochin. But they could not read the characters.
Request historical and educated replies..
KANANAYA PLATE
The customary belief amongst the Kananaya Syrian Christian community is that in 345 CE one Perumal/king, who ruled Kodungalloor all through this period had given a Copper Plate Grant to Thomas of Canaan, by which the King had showered a set of trading as well as socio-religious prerogatives to the Kananaya Syrian Christian community. However at present there is no such original Copper Plate Grant or any reliable evidence in their possession to prove this claim. It was only a fabulous story, orally transmitted through generations, has no historicity. Instead of the original document, they are keeping the copy of a forged document originally written in Portuguese language. There was no probability of issuing such a document in a European language by a 4th century CE by a Kerala ruler.
Foolish forgery…
Questions on Plate
We are talking about the plates given to Mar Sapir Iso in ninth century. Over the period of time, most of the plates has been lost due to the poor record keeping of the community. How ever two sets ( given at different time ) of plates ( some missing ) , given to Mar Sapir Iso ( the founder of the city, Kollam) has been preserved.
a) Questions on the language used in the Quilon plates
Till recently the interpretation of the inscriptions in the plate were ambiguous. The passage you quoted from Christian Researches In India, By Claudius Buchanan is published in 1849. The plates were re- discovered from the search at Portuguese trading post in 1806. My understanding is that the book is written with the best of the information available at that period of time. Different account of the interpretations and languages used has been referenced in many books and articles published with in and outside the community over this two century period.
That’s no ones fault and in a generalized way I buy the argument that everything has been done with the best of the knowledge available at that time.
The point I am making is, the slight controversial interpretations you are reading are, due to the fact of confusion created by learned scholars “ the interpreters” who did the interpretation. You can not even blame them. That’s just part of the reality we are in, the stage of progress humans has made so far in linguistic expertise.
As always starting with Brahmin scholars (obviously because of the proud Brahmin boasting of the community ! ) this has been looked by many authorities (Dr. Burnell, Burkatt FC, Sir Baily Harold, CPT Wenkwirth ( who are the best in the world – to name a few ) etc and by many local scholars ) and produced different interpretations.
When experts differs very much on this [ in all the plates mentioned in the article ] , it is daredevil for me to give a definte conclusion. That’s the case with Jewish plates also, works are still going on arriving consensus in interpretations.
b) About the Pictures
The pictures of the plates are from Quilon (Terispalli ) Plates. They are at Metropolitanate of the Mar Thoma Church in Tiruvalla and the Syrian Orthodox Catholicosate in Kottayam.
Taking your questions on a) further- the language on these plates which are in possession a) old tamil with Grantha letters or vattezhuthu b) Pahlavi, Kufic and Hebrew
Some 27 lines are in old tamil which describes the founding of the City of Kollam. The privileges are explained in the article.
Antiquity- between beginning of 8th century till 9th century ( varying observations )
More details can be obtained from,
a) The Indian Christians of St. Thomas- Leslie Brown- Pages 74.75, 85 to 90
b) Sixteenth Century traditions of Thomas Christians-Mundanadan- Page -130
c) Syrian Christians of Kerala- SG Pothen- page 32-33
d) Jras, West Pages-79,80
Right Picture- Front and Reverse of third copper plate with Pahlavi, Kufic and Hebrew signatures. [ Kept at Metropolitanate of the Mar Thoma Church in Tiruvalla ]
Left Picture-First from the series from the time of King Stanu Ravi Varma ( Gupta ) which outlines privileges to Mar Sapir Iso for Terispalli Church in Kollam, Kerala. [Kept at Syrian Orthodox Catholicosate in Kottayam ]
c) Questions on Kananaya plates
Your quotations on Kananaya ( thekumbhagar) plate are from a hatred e-mail chain from some Northen babus. I am active in few forums for some years and I have learnt not to waste my time responding to these kind of allegations.
In nutshell, what you are saying is Kananaya ( thekumbhagar) plates are fake and forgery. When you or some one uses these kind of words, then the should take the effort to prove the allegation. That should not be limited in poetic verbology.
Please read what I have mentioned about Kananaya ( thekumbhagar) plates. I am not claiming anything you are accusing. You are misleading with allegations. If you have heard it from Kananaya’s ( thekumbhagar), please shoot the questions directly from where you heard.
On the validity of Kananaya ( thekumbhagar) plates, my honest answer is I don’t know. Given the general attitude to claim everything as Thekumbhagar and the stories for the last few centuries, some doubts can not be deducted. But their aren’t any evidences to claim, it as forgery in my point of view. ( Most of the Kananaya’s ( thekumbhagar) display some old interpretations from Quilon plates and claim it was from Kananaya plate. Those accounts for lack of understanding and ignorance than forgery)
These are the information’s am aware about the authenticity of Kananaya plate
1. Couto maintains that they are at Portuguese trading post at the Factory at Cochin in 1599 along with all the plates Mar Jacob, the Persian Metropolitan has given for safe custody but by 1603 they were missing. [ The Jesuits- page-80)
2. When all the plates went missing in Portuguese trading post , Gouva writes that
“ The disappearance of all plates ( including Kananaya plates in question ) has caused concerns to Christians for not having writings to defend their rights among the infidel kings who keep on violating their rights”
3. The British Museum has an old manuscript which is the Portuguese translation of an old Malayalam interpretation from a learned “Jew” of this plate in question. Historians generally ridicule the interpretations from this learned “ Jew” with the point of view that he did not understand the inscriptions and he just produced a version of what was expected out of him form the local stories ( possibly the same content from the late orgin Quilon Plates).
[ Remember the much late origin Jewish Plates doesnot have an interpretation accepted unanimously by modern scholars- Then how can we trust the interpretation of a “learned Jew” of 15th century and claim or ridicule based on that. The more apt presentation is no one knows for sure what are the contents of Kananaya plates.]
Your quotations from Pariwar literature ( and the literature continuation) on this plate in question are far away from truth. They are mis representations generated with lack of knowledge and mis-understanding. It is done with the purview of creating a poetic verbological text just with the intention of ridiculing Kananaya ( thekumbhagar) ignorance. By exhibiting ignorance no one can ridicule another ignorance.
Please feel free to point out corrections or errors. I do make mistakes and more than happy to accept corrections.
Good Reply to BGfromNZ. For some time these people were filling Pariwar propaganda in different forums and Wikipedia talk pages manipulating to delete most of the Christian pages in Wikipedia.
They should spend some dime in buying some good books than just relying on outdated and manipulative pariwar literature.
Excited voices and predisposed souls are not part of the solution. Bonded to a predefined postulation of unverified sequence of events under the name of Gnostic literatures cannot contribute in this regard. They would love to plunge their head into darker area of the spectrum, no matter there are free sources of venerable light to elude those decomposed parts. We all are products of a generation strand which has been converted at some part of time span from 52 A.D to 1900 to be rough. Not sure when and for what reason. Stories of water held in mid air aren’t convincing either. We all struggle to justify our existence in a complex society of classification sorted by a synthetically credible caste structure. When Brahmanism couldn’t bear a convincing theory, most of the authors turned to plates and hardcore data. Applause for such innovations was soaring from the above mentioned rank that can be an inspiration for inclined promoters. I am not propagating any Pariwar account nor believe in stories of Mahabharata, where war games were operational with an extensive technology of laser and satellite arsenals. Neither have I believed in formation of kerala from parasurama claiming sea fossils as indications to support their tale. No literate believe in Pariwar anecdotes or Gnostic books or travel documents with lesser legitimacy. What ever we read and how ever we draw lines it’s absolutely hard to get an appropriate answer, since the corridor to truth has to be precisely drawn with solid and scientific progression of occurrences. I have gone through many valid books that couldn’t take me any where. Some obtainable points can link these threads but don’t budge with traditional unsubstantiated sequence of events. But the fact is that we failed to come out of the self-imposed cocoon and remained bound by tradition and led an orthodox existence. Its time to come out or I feel wise to stop that aged whistle blowing unless much integrity is dispensed into.
Appreciate Therispalli to recommend some credible books…
Following is a list of 72 privileges granted by Cheraman Perumal to Knai Thommen,
1. Ambari (Howdah on an elephant)
2. Ankaram (courtyard)
3. Antholam (palanquin)
4. Ammoolam (tax gathering)
5. Arpu (cheers)
6. Aala vattam (Peacock feather fan)
7. Aana savari (Elephant riding)
8. Uchippoovu (Head Turban)
9. Kacha (Robes)
10. Kacha puram (Over coat)
11. Kankanam (Bangles)
12. Kaal thala (Anklet Rings)
13. Kaal chilambu (Anklets Bells)
14. Kurava (Tongue Cheers)
15. Kuthirasavari (horse ride)
16. Kuzhal (Bugles)
17. Kodi (Flag)
18. Kaikara (Hand Ornaments)
19. Kaithala (Bangles)
20. Cheli (a kind of tax)
21. Chemkombu (another tax)
22. Chenda (Drum)
23. Thamburu (String Instruments)
24. Thazha kkuda (Royal Palm Umbrella)
25. Ner vaal (Straight Sword)
26. Pattu chatta (Silk Coat)
27. Patturumal (Silk Handkerchief)
28. Pattumundu (Silk dothi)
29. Pakal vilakku (Day Lamp)
30. Padi pura (Entry Gate House)
31. Pathakkam (Necklace)
32. Panni pudava (Embroidary Robes)
33. Paravathani (Carpet)
34. Pavaada (Royal Cloth)
35. Pallakku (Palanquin)
36. Pavada (Royal Cloth)
37. Panchavadyam (Five Instrument Orchestra)
38. Pandal Vithanam (Pandal Decoration)
39. Pathinezhu Parichamel Kathruthwam (Control over the 17 Low castes)
40. Maddalam (Hand Drum)
41. Manarkolam (Platforms)
42. Mudi (Crown)
43. Mudikuzhabharanam (Head ornaments)
44. Mammoolam (Tax)
45. Methi adi (Wooden Chappels)
46. Raja vaadyam (Royal Orchestra)
47. Raja Sankham (Irippu) (Honour to sit in court with the King)
48. Rajabogham (Honor to eat with King)
49. Veena (String Instrument)
50. Deevetti (Indigenous Torch)
51. Thookku manchal (Swinging Cot)
52. Thondon
53. Thoranam (Decoration)
54. Thol vala (Armpit Bangle)
55. Theendalkattal (untouchability)
56. Nada (Cheers)
57. Nayattuhubhogam (Privilege for hunting)
58. Naikudiparisha
59. Nedizakuda (Royal Umbrella)
60. Nettipetti (Cloth Box)
61. Nettikettu (Head Dress)
62. Veera vaadyam (Heroic Bugles)
63. Veera madalam
64. Veera srimkhala (Royal Chain)
65. Viri panthal (Honour to errect Pandal)
66. Venchamaram (Royal Fan)
67. Sankhu (conch)
68. Sangu Edam Piri (Conch with left screw)
69. Sankhu Valampiri (conch with right screw)
70. Bhoomi Karamozhivu (land tax evation)
71. Nayattu (Hunting)
72. Paalamarangal (Forest concession)
This has been given in many sites as the privilages given to Knai Thomman. From the above article and comments i understand there are some historical records talking about the existiance of such plates.
I have few questions and can some one shed lights ?
– Is it explictly mention in any of the historical documents that the plates lost are Knai. My assumption is if it didnot mention it can be some of the missing pieces of Quilon cheppads ?
– What is the source of this list ? Is it a copy of some transaltion of the Quilon or other plates which are in possession with the community ?
– Do anyone agree with me that the much said Knai plates are just stories created by Southist from the Quilon plates which exist with the Northist community ?
The 72 privileges mentioned above are exactly similar to those that were granted to Mar Sabr Iso and group at Kollam in 880 AD and not exclusive Southist grants, and same as the Quilon cheppad grants.
T. A. Gopinatha Rao, Superintendent of Archaeology, Travancore State, in his notes on the vicissitudes of the Syrian Christian Copper plates mentions that Captain Charles Swaston had recorded the details of the Copper plates in Vol. I (Old Series) of the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society in January 1883. He records that, The Syrian Christian copper plates were deposited by the Bishop of Angamale in the hands of the Portuguese at Cochin, and were lost thence. Later Colonel Macaulay who came as British Resident in Travancore, directed an immediate search for the lost plates and discovered them in the year 1806 to the great joy of the Syrian Christian community. These plates are now in possesion at the Syrian Jacobite seminary (as described above). But there is no information as to from where and how they were recovered though some vague references to the plates been transferred from the Portuguese to Dutch and thence to the English is made.
It is also said that Macaulay allowed Dr. Buchanan to take facsimiles of them and originals were handed to the Syrian Metropolitan.
The Syrian Christian copper plates were first edited by Rev. D. H. Gundert in ‘Madras Journal of Literature and Science Vol. XIII’, part I, pp. 115-142 under the title “Translation and analysis of the ancient documents engraved on copper in the possesion of the Syrians and the Jews of Malabar”.
The transliterations were also reproduced by William Logan, ‘Malabar Manual’, Vol. II.
Besides the editing and translations of the Quilon Copper plates there are no other copper plates as evidences for historical documents. Neither are there any historical evidence for a separate Knai Thoman copper plate (except tradition). And if other plates were found why were these Souhthist plates not found if they were exclusively separate ? Or did the Portuguese manuscripts mentioning about a Knai Thoman plate confuse it for the Quilon plates and thus was misinterpreted by them ?
What remains as living evidence is that the 72 grants are exactly the same as mentioned in the Quilon copper plates, and never was a translation of special Knai Thoman plates made in history by any scholars. So it cannot be said even faintly that the privileges enlisted above are exclusive Southist grants.
A forged Copper Plate Grant.
The belief amongst CKP community is that in 345 CE one Perumal/king (name is not known to them) , who ruled Kodungalloor all through this period had given a Copper Plate Grant to Thomas of Canaan (Thomas of Cana, Thomas the Merchant, Thomas the Canaanite, Thomas of Jerusalem, Knaye Thoma, Thomas Cananeus, or Thomas Cannaneo), by which the King had showered a set of trading as well as socio-religious prerogatives to the Kananaya Syrian Christian community.
Nothing is known about this Thomas of Cana except his name, and this migration of Christians also cannot be treated as historical fact. “No deeds of copper plates in the name of Thomas of Cana are now extant,” writes C.B. Firth in An Introduction to Indian Church History, “…[and] it would be rash to insist upon all the details of the story of Thomas the Merchant as history.
Whatsoever it may be, at present there is no such original Copper Plate Grant or any reliable evidence in their possession to prove this claim. It was only a fabulous story of an imaginative talent and it, orally transmitted through generations, has no historicity.
Instead of the original document, they are keeping the copy of a forged document originally written in Portuguese language, which is a copy of contents of the plates awarded at the end of first century to Persian Christian settlers in Quilon.
There was no probability of issuing such a document in a European language by a 4th century CE by a Kerala ruler.
The stories associated with the missing of the original Malayalam copy of the Copper Plate Grant are a bit humorous. It is highly paradoxical/illogical that all dates in this Copper Plate Grant are in the months of Kollam Era, which was introduced here in a later year that is 825 CE12.
The state of the art of the Copper Plate Grant is the handiwork of the CKP interest, whose notoriety in fabricating stories and documents is a well-established fact. Therefore, the reliability of the text of the Copper Plate Grant of 345 CE is not satisfactory both judiciously and in the eyes of history.
A small doubt. In Two of the above replies there is a strong resemblances
BGfromNZ writes on Feb18, 2008 with the heading KANANYA PLATES
“It was only a fabulous story, orally transmitted through generations, has no historicity. Instead of the original document, they are keeping the copy of a forged document originally written in Portuguese language. There was no probability of issuing such a document in a European language by a 4th century CE by a Kerala ruler.
Foolish forgery…”
Again on June 11,2008 KK writes under A forged copper plate grant
” It was only a fabulous story of an imaginative talent and it, orally transmitted through generations, has no historicity.
Instead of the original document, they are keeping the copy of a forged document originally written in Portuguese language, which is a copy of contents of the plates awarded at the end of first century to Persian Christian settlers in Quilon.”
Probably both are twin brothers!!. Then the mutual question and answer between are really interesting.
BG
May be I am wrong. But a reply from your side regarding the verbatim similarity between the above two posts will clear all the doubts .I can assure you that I used all the ‘normal reasoning’ but can’t find any distinctiveness between these two commentators .Probably your wisdom can enlighten us .
Dear Itty
These views are basically from CI Isac. Unfortunately some one else too copied that…
Cheers, BG
I am an independent researcher and writer and I have interest in the subject matter. I have also published a book “Indiayavil Saint Thomas Kattukkathai” (The Saint Thomas myth in India) in Tamil in 1989. As I study in historical perspective, I find that the over-enthusiastic Indian Christians have indulged in manufacturing Copper plates to prove their antiquity of the tradition and belief, which are not necessary. The recent attempt (1980 to 1990) has been that of former archbishop Arulappa (1912-1996) and Acharya Paul (1920-2005) – (both are no more now: “Dead men can tell no histories or lies”), who engaged in such forgery of Copperplates connecting the “doubting Thomas” with Tiruvalluvar, a Tamil poet.
Ironically, though such frauds have been exposed, again the Indian Christians have announced and carried on their activities of shooting a film on “Thomas myth” in India. Honest and true Christians may be bewildered to note that too what extent they could imagine and take “doubting Thomas” to more “doubts”. As they have money and political power, they invited the anti-Hindu atheist Chief Minister of Tamilnadu, India – Karunanidhi, to inaugurate the movie.
Note, the announcement and efforts of this movie immediately follows another move “Jesus in India”, which is again based on another forgery.
One Fr. Paulraj Lourdusamy with three doctorates has been the script and story writer of the film. He goes on giving interviews to local vernacular papers and magazines about the 50 crores mega-movie project, which we call as a fraud on Indians, as it has no historical basis.
The simple question is how a man born on the earth could have more than one skeleton and tombs at different places on the earth? Thus, such documents taking “doubting Thomas” to all continents are absolutely forged ones. If one has to believe “Acts of Thomas” listed under Old Testament apocrypha, then, the verses clearly say that he was killed by the soldiers of Gonophores and his body was taken to Mesopotamia. So let the Christians be satisfied with such Biblical truth as a word of God and keep quite.
The more they rake up, the more forgeries and frauds would come up and the Christians friends may not be comfortable about it. In fact, most or many of Indian Christians and Indian non-Christian believers may or may not be knowing all these things. But if the Christians tryto push these forgeries, thrust frauds and impose myth on Indians as “history”, then definitely, Indians have to tell the truth.
Let the truth prevail and Christians be happy with their scriptures, Gods, Apostles and prayers.
VEDAPRAKASH
28-07-2008
1st of all St. Thomas is our tradition and “our” history, we don’t need to answer to anyone else, especially to a bunch of pariwar fellows who have yet to prove that there was a temple under that mosque those hoodlum demonlish at Ayodya or any of the other criminal activities.
Ours and others traditions already point to a good possiblity that ST. Thomas came to India, especially Kerala, which this guys already admits when he mention Gondophares Indian King.
Vedaprakash is a good example of the term “troll”.
Very interesting claims “Vedaprakash” .Oh heres a prime example of the methods these pariwar use. The name of the game is if i write something or say something, somebody will believe its true.
“Vedaprakash” wrote a book and he says he is a “independent” researcher. Just because someone calls himself a researcher does this fellow think we will all go flocking to believe his fabrications.
Look at the tone of his message, trying to be intimidating, and very patronizing of indian christians and why does this fellow feel so concerned about the St. Thomas event?
These pariwar fellows are so flabbergasted that christianity was already in India, that they try to intimidate christians into denying their own history.
Vedaprakash, go play on the RSS websites, you fellow are so much time on your hands to be useless you have to go bother good decent people on legitimate websites. Get a life sir.
First, I want to correct the mistakes crept into my posting:
1. “Acts of Thomas” is listed under “The Apocryphal New Testament” and not under “Old Testament Apocrypha”.
2. According to the apocryphal work, he was killed by the soldiers of “Misdaeus” and not by “Gundaphorus”.
Coming to the response of mr. Chacko: I was rather surprised by the response of “Chacko” and I need not comment upon his outbursts and attacks. If he really wants to challenge me or want to do so, but not the way in which he has responded. Let him be courteous, as I do not know which tradition or history has taught him to abuse others.
He can just go through a google search to find out about me.
He has not refuted the frauds mentioned.
I challenge him to point out “fabrications” as mentioned by him.
I record here one thing: In the name of “Thomas”, the church, bishops and others have been indulged in manufacturing evidences copperplates and palm-leaf manuscripts etc., and none would appreciate or approve. Manufacturing cannot forgive such forgeries and frauds. When I use such words, I have evidences for that.
According to “Acts of Thomas”, the so-called “martyrdom” of “doubting Thomas” is as follows:
168. And when he had thus prayed he said unto the soldiers; Come hither and accomplish the commandments of him that sent you. And the four came and pierced him with their spears, and he fell down and died.
And all the brethren wept; and they brought beautiful robes and much and fair linen, and buried him in a royal sepulchre wherein the former (first) kings were laid.
170. And he went and opened the sepulchre, but found not the apostle there, for one of the brethren had stolen him away and taken to him unto Mesopotamia.
Motague Rhodes James (Trans.), The Apocryphal New Testament, Oxford at Clarendon, UK, 1924, p.437.
About “apocrypha”, the meaning given by the translator may be referred to: Ibid, p.xiv of PREFACE.
Thus, your “guy”, “fellow”, “troll” etc., is always ready.
VEDAPRAKASH
29-07-2008
Hello Mr. Vedaprakash,
Interesting Mr. Vedaprakash, you list a few citations that say nothing specifically to refute Thomas in South India.
Listing a book or saying here there, does not prove or refute the St. Thomas tradition.
The acts of St. Thomas is considered a almost gnostic from my understanding, not canonical, so a lot of it has to be read carefully or taken with a grain of salt.
His body supposedly being taken to Mesopotamia, is a legend I’ve heard before after his martyrdom at Mylapore. We unfortunately do not have a clear picture of what actually happened to St. Thomas body, it doesn’t hurt the tradition either way.
Our traditions focus more on his life and work in Southern India, the bringing of the gospel or good news, the soul passes on to God and Heaven, the body turns to dust, what matter is it to us?
Why do the eastern orthodox syrian christians in the Middle east hold this same story of thomas going to India?
Alot of the St. Thomas tradition comes from the oral traditions as in the Margam Kali, not written.
Now it is you that hasn’t provided any proof.
You say that it was the Church leaders and such who made up this story, wheres your proof?
I have only recently been hearing this theory mostly from pariwar types.
Why are you people concerned with what is our traditions?
Why are christian tradition of interest to you, are you a christian Mr. Vedaprakash?
If you are not, why aren’t you taking your “independent” researching abilities into Hindu traditions?
I’m sorry Mr. Vedaprakash, but your posting has only reinforced that you are here to stir up trouble., you may join in the discussions, but do not act surprised when someone responds to you.
Vedaprakash,
Just correcting wont be enough, you better re-write totally, for most of what you said are mistakes.
You claim to be a writer and researcher but to spread your own prejudice of hate against Christianity and communal hatred.
I feel sorry to lower myself to your level to reply. Writer can be of many standards: The great Tamilian Sarveppalli Radhakrishnan was one; and those writing inside Toilet walls of Madras Mail too claim to be “writer”. With your hatred and gross mistakes expressed at this forum one can presume with your “kattukathai” you cannot be any better than the later type of a writer !
The connection of St. Thomas with Gondophares is just a possibility only, and your story is a “cooked” one to disprove truth. There are many other strong proofs for the presence of the Apostle in India.
Don’t tell your story at Mylapore openly, you may be manhandled by your own people.
If you “writer” is out disproving historical facts of St Thomas as ‘stories’, you will end up proving Ramayana and Mahabharatha are just stories.
What Christianity did in India is liberating and uplifting millions of downtrodden, exploited ‘Shudra jathi” to human-levels.
Well, if you are an upper cast arrogant feudalist of an exploiter of fellow lower cast Tamilians, you have reasons to grind an Axe against Christianity taught by your friends in North India. But remember, they still call you the wretched name “Madrasi” to express hatred and hegemony.
When you disown the fact of Copperplates endowed to Christians by Indian Kings, you are disproving the generosity and communal harmony expressed by Hindu Kings and end up belittling them to your own shame. And if Palm leave and Copperplate scriptures are false “Ramayana and Mahabharatha” too were written on the same material ! When I was at lower primary I used to argue “mine is truth, yours is false” , not any more.
Lastly, arrival of Thomas is not the lone basis why we are Christians in India; we are Christians as disciples of Christ on the first hand. Now write a “Kattukathai II’ trying to prove Christ is a myth !
And we are Indians first and then Christians; we value Hindu culture than Western and accept “Ramayana, Mahabharat & Upanishads” as sacred scriptures and try to follow the great Indian values emanated from them.
If you are a true Hindu you cannot work against the values and humanitarianism expressed in the holy scriptures of Hinduism.
Yes, we still love you and pray for you; that’s what our Guru taught us.
Hi Vedaprakash,
Can you tell us which copper plates are forged.As per my knowledge there are many given to the
St Thomas Christians….and the funny thing is they’re not all in the same place.There are copper plates given to the community in kodungaloor ,in Kollam.
The history of this community is basically oral.But in the least dont expect a Malayalam palm script about 2000 years with details of this community.The reason for this is 2000 years back Malayalam probably did not exist…as you are probably aware Malayalam is the youngest Dravidian language.
I think the history of the community can be traced back to atleast 1500 years with certainty.
I still wonder why you say the plates are forged ????
The town called Kollam in Kerala was started by two bishops from the Iraq or Iran.These things are pretty much established by historians.
If you look at this from a probability point of view,chances highly favour Ships from the middle east actually coming to India even at 2000 BC (as “Muziris” will attest).
Dear Friends,
History must be looked at objectively and the Opinion after research must be accepted.
Jesus of Galilee clearly told his Disciples, “ Do not take to the lands of Samaritans, go only to Jews” in Matthew 10.
There were no Jews in Kerala or Cheranadu earlier than 7th Century. Sangam Literature, Silapathikaram & Manimekalai gives Hundreds of quotes from Gos’s Revealtions of Veda, and uses Sanskrit words liberally, not one talks of any Hebrew Present.
How Reliable is Acts of Thomas?
Holy see’s Publisher “Burn Oares & Wash Boune Ltd’ has Published Multi Volume –“Butler’s Lives of Saints” Edited by Rev.Alban Butler (with Nihil Obstat & Imprimatur from Two Archbishop for its Doctrinal Acceptance) says-
“.. the Syrian Greek who was probably the fabricator of the Story would have been able to learn from Traders and Travelers such details as the name Gondophorus with Tropical details.. Pages 213-218, in Volume December-21.
The Authors have gone through all the major works of the claims of St.Thomas Indian visit claims and one of the highly acclaimed work of “The Early Spread of Christianity in India” – Alfred Mingana connected this with Apostle Thomas visit claims and clearly affirms-
. “ It is likely enough that the Malabar Coast was evangelized from Edessa at a later date, and . that in the course of time a confused tradition connected this with Apostle Thomas himself.”
On Ramban Pattu Tradition http://www.stmaryssharjah.com,
and article titled ST. THOMAS THE APOSTLE- Written by Mr. Mathen Manathala says-
“This tradition has many contradictions and factual errors. First of all there were no Brahmins in the Malabar Coast until the eight century. Secondly, the places where he is supposed to have founded churches were non existent as those parts of the western coast were still under the Arabian Sea. Thirdly, ordination of Kassesos and “Rambans” was not practiced in Christianity until the first quarter of the second century any where in the world. The only written evidence to this Malabar tradition is found in the “Ramban Pattu” supposed to be written in early 17th century, but the language used denotes a much later time, sometime in the 19th century.”
The Archaelogical findings at Mylapur include a proof for Sivan Temple and Muruga
From the Book-
திருமயிலைத் திருத்தலம்- இலக்கிய, வரலாற்றுப் பார்வை,
பேராசிரியர். Dr.சு.ராஜசேகரன்.,1989,
Doctral Thesis done in 1986, on the Same name at Madras University, the Author was then working as Tamil Professor at Nandanam Govt. Arts College, Chennai.
The Author Analyses various Stone Inscriptions and Archeological findings from Kapalishwarar Temple and Santhome and gives his views.
இப்போதுள்ள கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில், நாயன்மார்களால் பாடப் பெற்ற பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் என்ற பொதுவான நம்பிக்கை மக்களிடையே நிலவி வருகிறது. ஆனால், தொல்பொருள் ஆராய்ச்சியாளர்கள் சாந்தோமில் கண்டெடுத்த புதைபொருள்களிலிருந்து பழைய கோயில் வேறு இடத்தில் இருந்திருக்க வேண்டும் என்றும், பெரும்பாலும் சாந்தோம் கடற்கரையாக இருக்கலாம் என்றும் எண்ண வேண்டியிருக்கிறது.. .. பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயிலலின் இடிபாடுகள் இப்போதுள்ள கோயிலுக்குச் சிறிது தொலைவில் கிழக்கு திசையில் சாந்தோம் கடற்கரையருகே கண்டு எடுக்கப்பட்டதே இதற்குக் காரணமாகும்.
1923இல் தொல்பொருள் ஆய்வுத் துறையினர் சாந்தோம் கதிட்ரலில் நிகழ்த்திய அகழ்வாராய்ச்சிகளால் கல்வெட்டுகளும், தூண்களும், சிலைகளும் கண்டெடுக்கப்பட்டன. கல்வெட்டுகள் சிவன் கோயிலைக் குறிக்கின்றன. கற்றூண்களிலும் கல்வெட்டுகள் காணப்பெறுகின்றன. மயிலோடு கூடிய முருகர் சிலையும் கண்டெடுக்கப்பட்டது. 1921இல் மறைத்திரு ஹோஸ்டன், சாந்தோம் கதிட்ரலில் கண்டெடுத்த வடமொழிக் கல்வெட்டு “கருவறை உட்பட எல்லாக் கட்டிடங்களும் மயிலாப்பூரிலுள்ள புகழ்பெற்ற சிவனுக்கும் பார்வதிக்கும் உரியவையாகும்” என்று குறிப்பிடுபகிறது. மற்றொரு தானக் கல்வெட்டில், “திருமயிலாப்பில் பூம்பாவை” என்று குறிப்பிடுப்படுவதாலும், பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் கடற்கரையருகே இருந்திருக்க வேண்டும் என்பது புலனாகிறது.
அருணகிரிநாதர் திருப்புகளில் கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் கடற்கரை அருகே இருந்தது என்று குறிப்பிடுப்படுவதால், பழைய கோயில் கடற்கரையருகே இருந்திருக்க வேண்டும் என்று கே.வி..இராமன் கருதிகிறார். பக்கம்287,288
இந்திய மக்கள் தொகைக் கணக்கெடுப்புத்துறை வெளியிட்ட சென்னை மாநிலக் கோயில்கள் (Temples of Madas State) என்னும் நூலில் காணப்படும் கருத்துக்கள் :
கி.பி. 16ஆம் நூற்றாண்டின் தொடக்கத்தில் சாந்தோம் கடற்கரையிலிருந்த கோயில் போர்த்துக்கீசியர்களால் அழிக்கப் பட்டிருக்க வேண்டும் என்று கூறுகிறது. இந்நூல் கூறும் புதிய செய்தி, இப்போத்ள்ள கபாலிசுவரர் கோயிலும் குளமும் முந்நூறு ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன், மயிலை நாட்டு முத்தையப்ப முதலியாராலும் அவருடைய வாரிசுகளிலாலும் கட்டப்பட்டது என்பதேயாகும். (பக்-289 – Quotes Census of India-1961; Temples of Madras State, 1 Chingleput District and Madras City, P.204)
The Present Temple very clearly shows for Schoalrs that it was constructed only in 17th Cen. CE, few Tamil Schloars maintained that the Old Temple was in same place, and the Present Temple was constructed above it. Another Set of Scholars maintained that the Older Temple was in Sea Shore(Mostly the Present Santhome Cathedral) and the Author analyses various books on Mylapur Temple and comes to the Conclusion as below, and he before concluding quotes the Historic fact-
போர்த்துக்கீசியர்கள் இந்துக் கோயில்களை அழித்த செய்தியைக் கேள்விப்பட்டு இராமராயர் கி.பி. 1558இல், சாந்தோம் மீது படை எடுத்துப் போர்த்துக்கீசியரைப் பணிய வைத்துப் பின்னர்ப் பழுதுபட்ட கோயில்களைப் பழுதுபார்க்க ஆணையில்ட்ட செய்தியாலும் பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில் போர்த்துக்கீசியர்களால் .(Quotes from S.Kalyanasundaram-A Short History of Mylapore page-8) அழிக்கப் பட்டது என்ற முடிவுக்கு வரலாம்.
ஆகவே, முடிபாக, பழைய கபாலிசுவரர் கோயில், கடற்கரையருகே இருந்ததென்பதையும், கி.பி. பதினைந்தாம் நூற்றாண்டின் இறுதியில் போர்த்துக்கீசியரால் அழிக்கப் பட்டதென்பதையும், கி.பி. பதினாறாம் நுற்றாண்டில் இப்போதுள்ள இடத்தில் புதிய கோயில், மயிலை நாட்டு நயினியப்ப முத்தையப்ப முதலியார் மகன் முதலியாரால் கட்டப் பெற்றது என்பதையும் தெற்றென உணரலாம். -பக்கம் 291 திருமயிலைத் திருத்தலம்- இலக்கிய, வரலாற்றுப் பார்வை, பேராசிரியர்.
Dr.சு.ராஜசேகரன்.,1989,
Doctral Thesis done in 1986, on the Same name at Madras University, the Author was then working as Tamil Professor at Nandanam Govt. Arts College, Chennai.
When One claims Historical details, certainly True and Objective Scholars based on research can deny or accept based on his research. Vedaprakash can you put your book- online and give Link.
Let us analyse Thomai fable traditions in depth.
DEVAPRIYA
Hi Devapriya,
Can u translate what was written in tamil in the above text.The thing about Jews not being present earlier than 7th century is a real big balloon ,just waiting to burst. What time did the Bene Israelis come to India?
Way much earlier than that.
Kerala is not very far from the Konkan.
There were Jews earlier than 2000BC existing in India…there was trading in Muziris.This town got flooded due to the high tide and hence this port was lost.Only much later was Cochin used as a port.
If you were to check the internet,Roman coins were found at this place.Rome is very far away from Kerala as compared to the middle east.At that time ,the middle east was under the Romans.
Dear Devapriya,
You cannot defend Vedpraksh, he has proven a communal extremist by his own utterances, which doesn’t need much wisdom to understand. His words are pregnant with hatred against Christians sans research or scholarship.
Eg: “ The recent attempt (1980 to 1990) has been that of former archbishop Arulappa (1912-1996) and Acharya Paul (1920-2005) – (both are no more now: “Dead men can tell no histories or lies”), who engaged in such forgery of Copperplates connecting the “doubting Thomas” with Tiruvalluvar, a Tamil poet.
“Ironically, though such frauds have been exposed..”
Who proved ? How? When? This kind of loose talk is not befitting to a scholar, hence Vedaprakash proves himself a cheap researcher with dubious intensions to tarnish and evoke hatred to Christians.
……“doubting Thomas” to more “doubts”. As they have money and political power, they invited the anti-Hindu atheist Chief Minister of Tamilnadu, India – Karunanidhi, to inaugurate the movie….
How cheap and baseless an allegation which fits only to a shallow venomous critic.
“One Fr. Paulraj Lourdusamy with three doctorates has been the script and story writer of the film. He goes on giving interviews to local vernacular papers and magazines about the 50 crores mega-movie project, which we call as a fraud on Indians, as it has no historical basis.”——
How illogical baseless childish victimizing allegation !!
All Movies made on historical events are fiction only and anybody can make movie on any subject. To make them commercially viable people twist and glorify facts and events and nobody can challenge them at courts even. If he is correct all of NTR and MGR film directors are liars to be taken to courts. They depicted mostly Hindu deities and events and put …. If any event or character has similarity to real events or characters, it is just eventuality alone…. That means they twisted all such stories. Arent they liars and no better than Fr. Paulraj Lourdeswamy. Why don’t you take them to courts ?
Your words Boomerangs on you dear Vedaprakash.
A scholar will think twice before utter, a communal miscreant won’t.
I’m sorry Devapriya, your statement alone about Jews not being there earlier than 7th century invalidates the veracity of your sources, as Solomon himself is supposed to of done trade with Kerala, the middle east carried active trade with Kerala for many a millenia. The only people I have heard coming in 7th century were namboodiri brahmins, who came and established vedic hinduism and the vedic caste system at that time.
Please give us your source or resource, I suspect it is not a actual academic or scholarly article or I am smelling another instigator of trouble coming on board here, I hope thats not the case.
Hi Vedaprakash,
If there is sincerety in finding the truth,nobody is against it.In fact you will find people helping you in deciphering the past.Things are a bit hazy .That doesnt mean the proof doesnt exist… it means somebody has to put a looooooooot of effort to integrate them(Proof in entirety is not found in any one place ….its found scattered here and there…every Church faction has a remnant).
It means any person who researches has to be very patient.Proof has to be searched for in the middle eastern churches and patriarchate as well.I forget to mention Portugal as well(you might not know it but a lot of palm documents were burnt when the Portuguese tried to impose their version of Christianity).Its very tedious.And in a normal world how many people leave aside their livelihood to actually search for the truth.
As an official entity in India,the Catholic church came much later than the church of the East. To understand our history better,you have to see history from other sources as well other than the Western World.
Your research has only just begun.Please keep an open mind and may sincerety to truth aid you.
I personally didnt like the line “But if the Christians tryto push these forgeries, thrust frauds and impose myth on Indians as “history”, then definitely, Indians have to tell the truth.”.
We are no ones step sons,sweat and blood have got us this far.
Dont mean any malice to you,hope there isnt any in your heart.
We have enough Literature of BCE-500 Onwards about Cheranadu.
Not a Single word of Hebrew/Greek has entered in to Tamil.
Jews were never Sea Travellers in History and moved to neighbouring Egypt and Persia Arabia only.
After Persia & Arabia became Muslim only they started moving out to Greater Distances.
I quote from History of Christianity-Vol-I A.M.Mundaden:
“Dr.Walter J. Fischel, ‘the Greatest Authories on the Jews of Cochin’ prefersto refrain from taking any definite position regarding the pre-sixteenth century history of Kerala Jews.” Page-20
Tamils were great Sea Travellers and as per History and atleast 25 words have gone to Old Testament which can be dated to its present shape between BCE350-ce150.
I also refer to “Church History of Travancore” by C.M.Agur, (released by the Church in commemoration of Centenary Celebrations of the Church in 1903) reprint 1990, refers to the Merchant Thomas of Cana who came in 745 AD and clearly affirms-
“ Long after his Death the people Canonised him and the Subsequent Generation confused St.Thomas the Armenian Merchant with St.Thomas the Apostle, who never came to Malabar. This Confusion becomes more potent when we look in to the names of the Churches said to have been founded by the Merchant Thomas are Identical with the names of the Churches attributed to St.Thomas. Page-12
Devapriya
The very name of God- “EL” “EL-Shaddai” are burrowed from Tamil and has no proper roots are etymology as per Bible Lexicons.
As for Kerala was always Vedic and that is conclusively been proved by various Sangam Lit. I can put the Verses in Tamil or readers can go to http://www.tamil.net/projectmadurai.
As per Acta Thomas –
The Ninth Act: of the Wife of Charisius.
87 And when the apostle had said these things in the hearing of all the multitude, they trode and pressed upon one another: and the wife of Charisius the king’s kinsman Ieapt out of her chair and cast herself on the earth before the apostle, and caught his feet and besought and said: O disciple of the living God, Thou Art Come Into A Desert Country, For We Live In The Desert; being like to brute beasts in our conversation, but now shall we be saved by thy hands; I beseech thee, therefore, take thought of me, and pray for me, that the compassion of the God whom thou preachest may come upon me, and I may become his dwelling place and be joined in prayer and hope and faith in him, and I also may receive the seal and become an holy temple and he may dwell in me.
Hi devapriya,
You say that the Jews were not seafarers….how did they end up in Europe.
Since Vedaprakash vouches for the “Acts of St Thomas”….you will notice that it mentions about a
Jewish Girl.How did she end up there????
You will claim slavery and you are most probably right.
Such circumstances including conquest force people to migrate.
Please check out the history of the Bene Israelis,they were in India much earlier than the Cochin Jews.
How did they reach here.
Was it ever mentioned in the Torah never to cross the sea’s.?
And last but not least ,please check the DNA reports of the Chitpavan Brahmins,their DNAs
match with that of the Jews.Is it a coincidence that they live in the coastal areas?
How much of a hands on field study have you undertaken.Books are only ridden with opinions.
Only when you go out there,will you find the truth.
Most of these books were written much earlier than the Muziris excavations.if those same authors
were today in the know of this,a lot of their opinions would change.
If you say that we have confused Thomas of Cana with St Thomas….you are not aware of the ground
reality in Kerala.They are a different faction altogether.Infact their DNAs dont match with ours.
A proper argument in this regard will actually blow this theory to dust.That alone would suffice to
probably clear a lot of your misconceptions.Please read the threads people have contributed.
They will help a lot
Aha Devapriya saare, you have revealed yourself. Kerala was always Vedic and conclusively proven so? And its the Sangam literature that prove it so? Oh no, we’ve lost the argument here haven’t we?
Hmm with all your accusations of false legends, did you fail to mention Pariwar saare that Sangam is also even considered legendary, and some scholar don’t even know if it factually actually existed? The earliest mention of it is only in 7th century AD, and that by Shaivite poets, not even a vedic sect at that.
Wheres the proof of your “Vedic” before 7th century AD, and certainly not in BC.
Thats the problem with you pariwar types, always trying to tear down others with your falsities and insinuations and then make grandiose unsubstantiated claims about your own backgrounds and claim its the truth without any need any academic veracity.
And your big proof is that since Hebrew didn’t enter Tamil, that they were not Jews? Did you fail to mention that the Jews were on the Kerala side of Hills? Did you fail to mention that the Keralite Jews developed their own dialect of malayalam called judeo-malayalam? Did you know that there is a tamil devrived word in the Old Testament from King Solomon’s time?
Oh btw Anoop the Kerala Jews were older than even the Bene Israel, its just there were two factions the so called “Black” or Paradesi(Brown?) Jews who were desendants from possibly the time of King Solomon or Earlier and the “White” Jews who arer the more recent immigrants coming from the Middle east (Bagdad) and parts of Europe.
And Devapriya, Come on lets face it, you aren’t trying to bring a academic discussion here, you have faulty source and faulty arguments and research, I mean lets examine you arguments or your “proofs” against St. Thomas, everything you’ve quoted it kept purposely ambiguous and basically an opinion, i.e. C M Agur quote from “the Church” cententary? What or Which “Church” are reffering too? There are may different Churches, why not be more specific about that bit of info? And why does the unsubstantiated opinion of this C M Agur count for anything? Are opinions evidence?
So you think if you just throw some obscure references and people here and there you will accomplish your pariwar goals huh?
Oh Devapriya people are not as gullible as you think, good shyster as you are, you have been revealed as just another troublemaker who’s only business here is to cause mischief.
Please reconsider you actions and lot in life, this will bring you no piece to spread lies and gossip.
Though I’ve been hard on you, I wish you nothing but the best and hope God will reveal in you heart the light of Jesus Christ.
God Bless you and go seek him to solve your troubles.
1. My introduction to your forum has been received with much contempt, hatred and calling names, of course with threatening note also. Instead of repentance, claim has been made that “Our Guru has taught us”. Anyway, coming to the point, historically, before the advent of the Portuguese, there was no historical record for the “St. Thomas myth in India”.
2. The European Christian travellers, Christian / Jesuit writings mentioning his name / variance etc., are found in the documents thereafter.
3. The South America / Brazil has such tradition with similar legends superimposed, interwoven and concocted by the Church writers with the local Gods – Tunapa, Virococha, Quetzalcoatl (Huatulco is in Mexico, where Thomas reached to labour and die on a hillock. While he was praying on the top of the hillock, he was martyred and thus, his footprint was imprinted on the top and it is known as “Piedra de Moros”, near the village with the same name).
4. For Arulappa-Acharya Paul wrangles (as I mentioned in the first posting itself) refer to http://www.hamsa.org and http://www.indiainteracts.com where my articles are available, which I do not want to repeat here. Kindly read “What wrong have I done?” the interview of Acharya Paul by K. P. Sunil appeared in The Illustrated weekly of India, April 26 – May 2, 1987 . As Arulappa wanted to link Thomas with Tiruvalluvar, he engaged one Ganesh Iyer, alias Dr. M. Paul alias M. Acharya Paul alias Murugesan Paul alias Ganesan alias Acharya Ganesh alias Dr. Hariharanath to manufacture Copperplates and palm-leaf manuscripts.
5. As for as the other copperplates are concerned their genuine status comes into question when various kinds of anomalies and anachronisms are found in the study: palaeographic and orthographic, linguistic and stylistic, historical or calendrical.
6. Historically, researchers do not worry about the canonical and non-canonical / apocryphal writings, but believing Christians in the name of history cannot change their stands theologically and liturgically.
7. As for as Mylapore is concerned, the Portuguese / Jesuit / Christian activities have been on the record to show that they have indulged in the manipulation and manufacture of evidences.
8. As the Christians confronted Hindu religion with their blasphemous speeches and writings – Victor J. F. Kulanday (Swami Kulandaiswami), Sadhu Chellappa, M, Deivanayagam, R. Arulappa, Baskaradas, Moses Michael Faraday, G. John Samuel, and host of others, I got interest in Christianity to know the truth.
9. Being a believer of one religion cannot make him / her to disbelieve and defame other believer, but the Christians have been doing that where the “St. Thomas myth” is taken to beat the Hindus. History and faith are different. In 1989, it was inserted in the textbooks of Tamilnadu and that is why I had to bring out the book mentioned.
10. I conclude with the last sentences of my book (translated into English): “For the respective believers, their Gods, apostles and scriptures have been superior, but a genuine God-believer or devotee would not blaspheme others. But it is saddening to note thart some responsible Christians have indulged in such activities. Thus, when they are engaged in such actitvites, as they have no historical basis, we have necessity to question them.” (p.44, Indiyavil Saint Thomas Kattukkathai).
VEDAPRAKASH
31-07-2008.
I’m sorry Mr. Vedaprakash,
Your listing of the same propaganda and lies into a numbered list does not make them any more truer. I don’t know where you get this from, but there is no Hindu bashing in the St. Thomas Tradition, that is a premise you try to instigate to justify your spread of intimidation and hate.
Even if I don’t worship or acknowledge your gods or traditions, I still believe your right to practice them without interference, coming from the Christian principle of freedom of conscience. Unless its the God’s honest truth I will not criticize Hindus for there beliefs, except where it is warranted (i.e. caste system and other social evils)
We as christians also supposed to treat strangers and aliens with the utmost goodness whenever they are in our lands.
Believe me whether we are christian or not, these are our lands, our blood is in the soil and God’s purpose has brought up this faith among our people.
It is perplexing that all that seems to drive you sir is a defamation of our traditions and history, and no a insert in a Tamil history book is not what drove your present attempts at fabricationg anti-indigeous christian accounts. I suspect a insecure pariwar propagandist is the inspiration.
God Bless you sir, and give you peace from this perplexing obsession that has gripped you, please try to find something more useful in your life.
Hi Vedapraksh,
The King of England (Alfred) has sent emissaries to India as both the below articles attest. This was in the 9th century, hence your first point has been disproved.
Indeed there have been evidences of St Thomas Christians before the Portuguese ie 1496.
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=mabie&book=heroes&story=alfred
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,817710,00.html.
If a citation is needed for this I will willing to provide so.
2 The second point is worth discussing.The South Americans worshipped a deity called Tumas. People compare him with St Thomas.
You must be aware of some facts. Kerala and Brazil were under Portugal. Before conquering India, none of their earlier territories had ever spoke of St Thomas. Only after Kerala was conquered ,was Brazil taken. Territories earlier to this ,do not render precedence to St Thomas. Why after Kerala???
Why did the Koonan Cross Oath take place. Only a people who had pride in their history prior to the Portuguese could undertake this oath. This means that there was already a tradition of Christianity in Kerala….otherwise why would people oppose practices if they did not have an earlier reference point.
3. What happens in the church in Tamil Nadu is not our concern unless it affects us.
They dont represent us.
4 Which copper plates are thee talking of?
I do not absolve the churches of some of their wrong doing. But due to them and a lot of selfless individuals ,the country has accelerated in growth. If you discount this,then you are certainly biased.
The number of educated people leaving good jobs in order to bring education to the rural areas is highest in the Christian community. Which other community can claim this?
The churches are organisations in itself, but there is a democratic process within the exteriors.
There have been instances of corruption and other wrong doing in the church….as “Keralites” we dont keep silent when this happens. The Bishops are after all people. Everyone wants transparency….and we actually fight to get this in the churches. About Tamil Nadu though, I cannot comment .
But when people there actually worship their stars, how will they ever question their holy people?
Mr. James,
Though I agree with the emotion behind the sentiments, please let us not lower ourselves to these people levels by that sort of language. We Keralites are brothers of the Tamils, it is not Tamils but the pariwar that is trying to stir up this trouble. Tamils are a highly respected people and civilization, one of the most ancient of civilized people, I feel that their glory as only been restrained by the “Vedic” influence that creeped into the south, making people into castes and hijacking cultures to serve one top class of people. We are all high class people, Nasranis, Tamils, Ezhavas, etcs, it is through Christ that makes it so; “There is not Jew or Gentile”. All one people in Christ, it is only the “pagan” influence as you said James that makes us call another human being “lower caste”, and we Christians need to wake up and not be dragged down by these outside influences.
Hi James,
Abusing people increases hatred,we dont need hatred.Vedaprakash has come with preconceived
notions,it happens with most of us in every domain.A healthy conversation will help clear any wrong thoughts.
Dear Vedaprakash,
Please do not go away, you are our guest, though we disagree on certain points. “Athithi Devo Bhavaha” is India’s tradition, we are proud Indians.
1. My introduction to your forum has been received with much contempt……….No. Your allegation of ‘contempt, hatred and threatening’ from NSC is unfounded. All visitors are guests to us, nobody at this site meant to threaten you, but ‘One reap what one sow’ is universal.
…………. Instead of repentance, claim has been made that “Our Guru has taught us”.
——–Well… since you ask me to complete I do: Christ said “ Pray for your enemy”.
2……….Anyway, coming to the point, historically, before the advent of the Portuguese, there was no historical record for the “St. Thomas myth in India”. The European Christian travellers, Christian / Jesuit writings mentioning his name / variance etc., are found in the documents thereafter.
———-Well, there are every proof, but if Thomas’ arrival is controversial many historic events like ‘Mahabharath’ with its cast too are controversial to be proven.
3. The South America / Brazil has such tradition with similar legends superimposed, interwoven and concocted by the Church writers with the local Gods – Tunapa, Virococha, Quetzalcoatl (Huatulco is in Mexico, where Thomas reached to labour and die on a hillock. While he was praying on the top of the hillock, he was martyred and thus, his footprint was imprinted on the top and it is known as “Piedra de Moros”, near the village with the same name).
——– People in Mylapore has their claim he is martyred and laid to rest there.
4. For Arulappa-Acharya Paul wrangles (as I mentioned in the first posting itself) refer to http://www.hamsa.org and http://www.indiainteracts.com where my articles are available, which I do not want to repeat here. Kindly read “What wrong have I done?” the interview of Acharya Paul by K. P. Sunil appeared in The Illustrated weekly of India, April 26 – May 2, 1987 . As Arulappa wanted to link Thomas with Tiruvalluvar, he engaged one Ganesh Iyer, alias Dr. M. Paul alias M. Acharya Paul alias Murugesan Paul alias Ganesan alias Acharya Ganesh alias Dr. Hariharanath to manufacture Copperplates and palm-leaf manuscripts.
———– Why didn’t anybody taken them to court for forgery/ counterfeit rather than accusing ?
5. As for as the other copperplates are concerned their genuine status comes into question when various kinds of anomalies and anachronisms are found in the study: palaeographic and orthographic, linguistic and stylistic, historical or calendrical.
———– accusing and “comes into question” is not for true researchers. Proving is.
6. Historically, researchers do not worry about the canonical and non-canonical / apocryphal writings, but believing Christians in the name of history cannot change their stands theologically and liturgically.
——– agreed, but same is common to all believers including Hindu, Islam et al. Are you not a believer ?
7. As for as Mylapore is concerned, the Portuguese / Jesuit / Christian activities have been on the record to show that they have indulged in the manipulation and manufacture of evidences.
————Ans. No. 2
8. As the Christians confronted Hindu religion with their blasphemous speeches and writings….. I got interest in Christianity to know the truth.
——— You are most welcome. We are at your help to know truth.
9. Being a believer of one religion cannot make him / her to disbelieve and defame other believer, but the Christians have been doing that where the “St. Thomas myth” is taken to beat the Hindus. History and faith are different. In 1989, it was inserted in the textbooks of Tamilnadu and that is why I had to bring out the book mentioned.
——- worrying of 2% Christians beating 80% Hindus is just a phobia. We love you and pray to co-exist with you.
——– Being included in textbook won’t make untrue true. Currently we are grappling with a Communist Govt. in Kerala for injecting atheism & communism into the minds of infants thru Textbooks. Which side are you ?
10. I conclude with the last sentences of my book (translated into English): “For the respective believers, their Gods, apostles and scriptures have been superior, but a genuine God-believer or devotee would not blaspheme others. But it is saddening to note thart some responsible Christians have indulged in such activities. Thus, when they are engaged in such actitvites, as they have no historical basis, we have necessity to question them.” (p.44, Indiyavil Saint Thomas Kattukkathai).
—— Well, we at Nasrani.net are with you. We may analyze even criticize, no blaspheme other’s belief. If we sow evil, we reap same, we know sure.
Our Guru said so.
Dear Vedaprakash,
In sacred “Bhagwad Gita” chapter 17:15 Bhagwan Krishna says:
“anudvega-karam vakyam
satyam priya-hitam ca yat
svadhyayabhyasanam caiva
van-mayam tapa ucyate “
Means “Austerity of speech consists in speaking words that are truthful, pleasing, beneficial, and not agitating to others, and also in regularly reciting Vedic literature.”
“ I am proud to belong to a religion which has taught the world both tolerance and universal acceptance. We believe not only in universal toleration, but we accept all religions as true.” – Swami Vivekanada
But by God I say, I never witnessed a website like “Ishwar Sharan Archive”, devoted to Christian-bashing, emitting enmity and hatred to Christianity. On the home page one cannot see a single line other than hatred to Christianity.
Can you show me a single Christian website attacking, vindicating Hindu or any other religion?
It is accused ‘massive conversions’. If true, how come Christians in India still just 2% after ‘massive’ conversions for the 2000 years?
Isn’t it meaningless and Quixotic to say just 2 % Christians become such a threat to the 80% majority community?
Is it ‘Dharma” trying to eliminate your dependants?
Yes we are dependants of majority Hindu community in India. And we are immensely thankful to the Hindu community for their magnanimity towards us- the minority. We respect and cherish Hindutwa virtues.
Aren’t we sons of Bharatmatha?
………. “Hinduism does not have any one founder, and it does not have a Bible or a Koran to which controversies can be referred for resolution. Consequently, it does not require its adherents to accept any one idea. It is thus a culture, a way of life searching universal truth…”…..
If the above is true, we too are Hindu as sons of Bharat (India). We are Hindu in culture, follow Christ because he is magnificent as a revolutionary and has answer to sufferings of masses.
Ultimate aim of Religion and God is to make human virtuous; all religions profess the same goal to accomplish.
Do not afraid of we, the dwindling 2%, but the real threat of religious extremism, growing like wild fire.
Dear Admin,
Sorry for long posts, but certain subjects are serious to be well explained .
Rgds,
Dear Friends,
We need to analyse the data in Full and not live in Superstitions, and I QUOTE from
Bible As Literature, Oxford University Press,
written by 3 Professors John.A.Gabel, Charles B.Wheelr and Antony.D.York.
How was Hebrews living during OT times.
The small Corner of the Eastern Mediterranean, we have to keep reminding ourselves that it take up only Lower Third of that coast- particularly speaking was the Whole World to them.
Page-77
With Just a Few Exceptions, No Canaanite Or Israelite City before the Roman Period occupied more area than that of an American University Football Stadium, most Villages were hardly bigger than the Playing Field itself. King’ David’s Jerusalem is estimated to have measured about 300 x 1300 foot. Inside the City-walls houses would be crammed together according to no particular pattern, leaving room for Passages bu not for Streets. Before the Greek Period there were no Public Building of the Kind that we take for granted, provided by the Municipal Government.
Pages- 87,88
Foreign Countries appear in the OT only as Military Allies or Enemies of the Israelites or as the Habitat of Alien Gods; otherwise, not a Slightest interest is shown in them.
Page-77
The Best Opportunity for Economic Development, it might seem was One they never took; Commerce by Sea with Mediterranean always at their door, the Israelites stubbornly remained a Land Locked People. They were effectively Shut off from the Coast at first by the Philistines, but the warfare between the two, more had to do with the Philistines attempt to expand toward the east than with any desire of the Israelite to gain access to Sea. Although the Palestinian Coast has no natural Harbors south of Carmel, this need not have been a Permanent Obstacle.
The Israelites were Content to Let others – Phoenicians and Egyptians conduct their Merchant Shipping for them, almost as though they Believed the Covenant Language in its Narrowest Sense as a Promise of Land and Nothing Further.
It is clear from their writings in the OT THAT THE SEA WAS ALWAYS to them, had no significant part to Play in their Thought.
Pages 86-87.
This is Historical Position
Now you refer to the Acta Thomae and refer to Jewish Girl.
Dr.Joseph Kolangodan wrote a book “The History of Apostle Thomas” and it has the total appraisal from a fellow Christian, Professor John Ochanthurthi, Dept. of History, Calicut University
As the Well known Orientalist and Syriac Scholar George Every in his book, “CHRISTIAN Mythology” “India of this Legend(Acta) is cerainly not Malabar and may not be in the Indian Peninsula”
Page-76
“As for as I could see from all the Shreds of Quotations presented by Prof. Kolangadan in this Volume, the antiquity of St.Thomas Tradition in South India cannot go beyond 13th Century. So for as direct and explicit support in favour of the St.Thomas Tradition in South India is concerned, I have No Doubt that the answer must be, None. Neither the Church Fathers nor the Apocrypal Acts say anything explicityly about Malabar.” Page 79
Re Vedaprakash:
I think we shouldn’t reject his comments as merely belonging to a bigot, but should think a little bit more about how these criticisms arise due to our own sloppy history writing.
For example, even the best histories of Christianity in the south of India are riddled with myths, truths and half-truths. When one reads a historical article and, despite many plausible historical facts, finds a ridiculous one (or at leas an unprovable one) it seems to cast the whol article in doubt. This has happened to me several times; if anything it pissed me off so that I started rejecting every historical article written about the Syrian Christians of Kerala.
Suppose Vedaprakash wrote something worth reading. It may contain truth in it, but when he makes an absurd statement: “Kerala has always been Vedic” it makes him look like a hack and an amateur. There is no evidence that Kerala has *always* been Vedic! If he cites Sangam literature that only establishes the case up to 100 BC. That isn’t saying much since we can already reasonably assume Buddhists and Jains were in Kerala at that point; perhaps there were Brahmins and other Vedic peoples there then too. But still they migrated downwards from the North. They didn’t just start out in the South spontaneously—at least there’s no evidence for that.
But enough of that.. What I wanted to say is that we (Syriac Christians) ought to assemble a scholarly baseline of irrefutable evidence for our people in Kerala. And in that evidence, we should include the many artifacts and inscriptions that we possess that demonstrate that a Thomasine Syriac faith existed in Kerala before the Europeans came. We can even ignore the Copper Plates, since there is sufficient controvery surrounding them (i.e., where are the originals! We know where some of the copies are… but the originals help to establish that they weren’t fabricated). I remember someone (I think it was Xavier) who found some fascinating inscriptions at his Church in India. As well, I know of some in Manarcad and at many Orthodox Churches I’ve visited back home. Then there’s the Persian Crosses, and the body of pre-Diamper literature (e.g., documented by the SRITE project) in East Syriac. There’s also plenty of articles by Jewish historians that talk about their antiquity in Kerala; these are scholarly pieces and not religious propaganda. These are all bonafide scholarly evidence for our people’s and our faith’s existance in Kerala in antiquity.
Just citing the Thomas stories doesn’t help, since those stories are articles of faith and have no incontrovertible evidence to support them. After all, we Syriac Christians may be descended from Assyrian immigrants who mixed with Indians, and carried over their Thomas stories from Assyria. That is a possibility. Hence stories are not solid defences. (For example, I personally don’t believe that Thomas came to Kerala. That doesn’t mean much, of course, since that’s my own personal belief; I happen to find it easier to swallow that we are descendants of Thomasine Assyrians. But that doesn’t deny that there was a Nestorian monestary in Mylapore for centuries before the Portuguese arrived. Nor that there were Nestorians in Malabar, Kalyan/Bombay, Patna, Sri Lanka, etc. I don’t need Thomas to help me believe that Thomasine Christianity had a long history in Kerala before the Europeans came!).
Anyways, this is my opinion. The reason why critics like Vedaprakash exist is because our own histories are sloppy, with too much myth (or at least unproven “facts”) muddying up the real jems that are incontrovertible. And then people get all hot-headed over supposed “facts” that really have no scholarly substance to back them up — making us all look like idiots even more.
(And finally to C J James: your comments are an insult to us Nasranis, and not to Vedaprakash. To hear anyone claiming to be a Christian and spewing such ignorant garbage to a fellow human and Indian is disgusting. Moreover, your comments denigrate a variety of peoples and castes; however, rather than indicting anyone else, they indict you as a classless and ignorant individual. Your not a warrior for our cause when you speak like that—rather, you given them reason to want to fight back with an even more powerful response.)
Dear John Mathew,
Sorry for being a namesake and causing confusion; I should nonetheless record, unfortunately, yours seem to be one of the few sensible comments in response to people like Vedprakash or Devapriya. For many years I had thought this was a with a scholarly temperament, and not a religious leap of faith. If I was right in thinking so, (I am doubtful, after seeing the comments here) this mandates a certain decorum and detachment in the discourse. Many posters here do not display this. There is no worse defence than one ruled by passion, and one fraught with assertions historically indefensible. Perhaps the admin should think about this.
Hi Vedaprakash,
I am not a scholar regarding the subject.What I can do is ask questions regarding your theories.
Have you seen the cross of a Roman Catholic Church? And have you seen the crosses found in
Mylapore.These are very different.The One found in Mylapore is the Nestorian cross.Infact all over
Kerala,the churches use the Nestorian Cross.
The cross Roman Catholics use is different.The Portuguse follow Catholicism.How did these crosses
end up there if an earlier Christian monument wasnt found there?
Devapriya,
I dont take the Acts Of St Thomas as a verified source.My only intention was to question your theory that
the Jews didnt use the sea as a mode of transport….Your theory or rather the theory of those Authors
doesnt hold much water in light to the questions I have raised.
Dear Vedaprakash&Devapriya,
Interesting points you have raised .Copper plates of Malankaranazranies have nothing to do with arch bishop Arulappa or Acharya Paul. It has no direct link with St.Thomas or his work in India /Malankara. I don’t know about Arulappa or Acharya Paul and what their works had been. The plates which I am referring to are exclusive to Malankaranzranies- not whole of Indian Christians. These plates had been given to Nazrani leaders by local chiefs. We have proofs regarding these plates and some of these plates are kept in safe custody. You may be able to have a look at it. Extensive studies are being done about these plates and you may also do the same. I can understand your feelings, but May I request you to judge the situation or evidences more intelligent/cautious manner. Have you ever studied Malankaranazrani history as a student without any prejudices .The St.Thomas story is very difficult to prove with primary historical evidences, so as Peter in Rome. But one should understand that we have methods to indicate certain historical events might have happened.
1 .Apostles spread out to different parts of the world to convey the gospel of Yesu to Jews after the Pentecost .The works of apostles were first started among Jews and later spread to gentiles. Please note that the work among gentiles started only after St.Paul converted to Christianity.
2. Apostles decided their geographical area of work before they spread out to the main Jews settlements .St.Thomas said to have got India as his area of work .This is not only the tradition of Malankara/India but also in whole Christendom .
3 On the way to India he passed through Edessa and did spread the message of Yesu .Thus he became the father of Edessan church. Then he moved to eastern part of Parthia where a Parthian kingdom included Taxila and even some part of Punjab .This area was known as greater India. Here he met Gondophornes and rest is history.
4 Acts of Thomas is a book with historical facts said to have been written by Bardaissan an ex bishop of Edessa around AD220 not considered as valid in historical sense until 1930 when coins of Gondophornes has been found in Pakistan. It has changed the way we look at the said book .The information given in the book might not have taken place in one location but give the description about St.Thomas activities in India. It is also noted that a community of Fakirs who call themselves Barthumi (sons of St.Thomas) and have Aramaic names claims that they are descendant from Christians baptized by St.Thomas came across in contact with Rev. R. A. Trotter a protestant missionary when he was in Sind .(ref.history of Christianity India by Moraes-article Rev. R A Trotter-Christians in sind-conference 1947)
5 Many authors have tried to relate the information given in acts of Thomas to Malankara Nazranies. This made a lot of confusion in understanding history .The whole of the story might not have taken place in south India /Malankara but some part of it.
6. Muziriz /Malankara were very famous during the time of King Solomon .Many references in Bible regarding this and also many scholars have given opinion on this. During the time of Solomon, Malankara had commercial relations with Alexandria. (ref. Majumdar; History and culture of Indian people vol.II)
7 Tharsis ships brought gold, silver, tusk, monkeys, peacocks, for the king Solomon in once in three years(kings 10:22) .These are the products of south India/Malankara. Also note that few of words in Hebrew are from adi dravida like-Thuki. Such was the trade with Muziris/Malankara/South India and the port once were known to whole civilized world even before the silk rout was developed.
8 There is no logic in the argument that Jews were not there in Malankara before15th century, when whole of the trading ports in the world were represented by Jews. There are historical indications that Jews were migrated to Malankara during the time of destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in B C 606.
9 It is possible that St. Thomas visited Malankara to spread the message among the Jews settled in Chattukulangara/Paloor area. Documentations with respect to travelers to Malankara/South India refer the existence of Malankaranazranies who strongly believe in the oral tradition ofSt.Thomas.Please also note that the peculiar socio-cultural traditions of Malankaranazranies with respect to whole of Christendom prove that this community was not much influenced by the other Christians of the world.
10. Howe ever I do agree that the martyrdom at Mylapore need more studies to prove its credentials. There is no clear record or clear evidence pertaining to it before the arrival of Portuguese. Portuguese excavations also raise some questions in the mind of an unbiased researcher .Also note that the place St. Thomas said to have been murdered/ buried is Calamina/ Dilmun and no researcher/historian could able to prove that Mylapore is Calamina .Some researchers say that the Calamina/ Dilmun probably be the island called Bahrain. Also read this with the story about king Alfred of England said to have sent offerings to the tomb of St. Thomas. If Alfred knew that the St.Thomas buried in Mylapore he would have made relations with Malankaranazranies and the news could have spread all over west .We have no tradition pertaining to it. This indicates that St.Thomas might not have buried in Mylapore, but Bahrain where king Alfred could have send the offerings.
11 The stories of 7 churches and the families converted by St.Thomas should be taken as the story of Parasurama about creation of Kerala. I do agree that Malankaranazranies were carried away by the Brahmanization of Cheranadu and they were very much eager to relate their ancestor with Nampoothiries so as to create position in the social ladder .One of the church we promote as ST.Thomas built have patron saint who lived much later period (4th century)after St.Thomas. Geographical truth with respect to other churches also questionable as pointed by you .How ever you could find that the church at Chattukulangara/Paloor seems to be originated at the time of St.Thomas since a large population of Jews were settled near to it. The place is also not far from Muziriz.
12. Please don’t carried away by Ramban pattu, Margamkalipattu etc. since they were created like any other cultured society which produce literary articles. One could trace some historical fact in it, but don’t put forward as a point in favor of St.Thomas kattukkathai.
What I want to tell you that Malankaranazranies are not like Christians of Tamilnadu or other part of India (except the fakirs of Thoma bhagavan of Sind.)We have a heritage of 2000 years and have a true Hindu culture which each one of the Nazranies is proud of. We were the first one to tell firangies to get out when the rulers of Kerala hobnobbing with them in search of benefits.
Dear Friends,
I have given the level of Civilization and nature of Hebrews.
As for the name Malankara is it is the corruption of the Tamil word Maliankara.
Mal in Tamil is God-Vishnu.
Iyan is God -Siva who is called El-Shaddai in Bible OT.
Karai is Land.
Kara- The Land recovered from Sea around 8th Century CE.
The lands surrounding today’s Kodunkallore and 5 or 6 of the Churches referred in 19TH Century Ramban Pattu were below sea and the very name where Ramban song says Thomas landed is Maliankara.
Devapriya,
History says some thing different about JEWS.I will not make such comments or conclusions on the basis of few books. There are different methods to do it. Do you know about the financial cloud Jews having today (also with respect to countries).This is not an over night development. By the way, did you think of demographics of defferent nations of those times? Also please think about the different Rajyas of Hindustan –at least, Chera, Chola, and Pandya.
I have no objection on the explanation on Malankara. How about this?
Mala-hill
Kara-bar-pradesham. Is in’t it simple?
Please comment on the points I raised .Not ariyetra? Payaranjazhi ………….!
Thanks
Dear John Mathew/ all,
I request response from all of us at Nasrani.net and others concerned.
What you said is correct about our indifference/ignorance/migrative nature to codify our history. There are many proofs, facts and records scattered around but not in order. Never collected in co-ordination, extincting every day.
When questioned of our origins we have no firm reply, groping in dark, become dumb at times. Those with axes to grind can even state Nasranis are bastards and get away with it !
How cannot one ridicule our Church has no relation with the known Christ given our divide?
Cant we make a united effort to codify history and to assert what we are?
But who will take initiative is the question.
Those heads of our Churches are busy in other businesses. And the sea of divide between them is notorious. We cannot expect that in near future from our Heads, they got other issues to sort out. And no Church is free from domestic problems.
Almost all denominations have own websites with history of the particular church mentioned, but mostly twisted to own superiority. Negative but valuable events/proofs are omitted. (Glorified and/or omitted is no history, but fiction).
A united initiative, from all denominations, if started; will work
For example we all here at NSC are from diff. Churches.
When talking ‘ones own’ Church we may defend ourselves, but we are all ONE at defensive modes and much concerned about Christianity and its past and future course.
AFTER ALL WE ARE ONE, aren’t we ? Like in a hit movie we sons of a family become scattered, lost and divided by silly reasons mostly on egoism of Hierarchies, we scattered by family feuds.
A humble proposition:
Now it is the laity only can do a united effort to take it as a project, mobilize funds(available in plenty), engage research-savvy specialists, pool down available manuscripts, folklores, traditional historical pieces. Many of our grand fathers are unsung historians, but due to lack co-ordination sadly history is extincting with them, nobody to record them.
Laity initiative doesn’t mean avoiding clergy(no clergy, no Syriac Christinity), many of them are famous, qualified historians. But it won’t take off if managed by them by many reasons.
It should be a result-oriented enterprise, managed by ‘concerned’ laity with a goal and dead-line fixed. If a united effort pooling down all proofs and threads of history: result will be an authentic “HISTORY OF CHURCHE OF EAST” or sort. And no man-made history.
Main condition: No dogma, ego, hegemony, ‘true church’, Nestorian, supreme, Puritanism at work !
The offshoot: Even we may end up united in that process !!
CAN WE DO THAT ? Let us discuss pros and cons.
Dear Anoop,
The Haaretz news is enlightening. It proves the sorrow of laity on egoistic divide of the Hierarchies is same world-wide.
Thanks !
News:
At last SMC acknowledged that it is on path of extinction and started remedial steps.
It is mooted that SMC will fund 50% of educational expenses for third child and 100% for fourth and above.
Its good gesture, let others follow suit.
Dear Sunny,
I have been inderectly ‘told’ to keep away from ‘NSC’ because I am always harping on the ‘Jewish theme’ and that many are sick of it.
The allegation is from a certain perspective true.
But I have a reason for the above,
Did you ever know that the ‘Shofar’ (ram’s horm) at the Temple at Jerusalem blew at 3pm, at the exact time when Yeshu cried out ‘It is finished!’
Did you ever really question why Pilate washed his hands after the trail of Yeshu? (Ofcourse, we all accepted the version that Pilate was signifying his disassociation with the comming crusifixion.
Did you ever really question why the HIgh Priest Caiaphas tore his clothes? (Ofcourse, we all accepted the version that Caiphas did it in utter anger/emotions (pretended)
There are very strong traditions behind the above which we in Kerala do not know of. These we can understand only if we understand very well Jewish traditions. We can not grow as Nasranis without knowing very well our own Jewish heritage. It is our main root.
Dear George,
I missed you a lot.
Who asked you to quit, all of us have own obsessions and dogmas and prejudices.
NSC is a good place to get them tested and evaluated, we get new insights.
One must be dynamic, accepting errors of own dogmas and in an updating process.
We are believers, but that doesn’t mean we are illogical, tight-fisted adamant monkeys.
Now your persistence of Jewish origin is not a sin. Old Testament is entirely Jewish.
In New Testament too Jews are everywhere, means they were prominent, most civillised race then.
Even now mostly prominent and powerful nations only are engaged in overseas travel and trade.
It is natural and logical and proven that they came to Malabar for trade, settled here much before St. Thomas and got Christened by him.
One very valid point nobody mentioned at NSC: Those barbaric times people dare to travel to far away places where they are sure of acquaintances existing. As such Thomas came straight to Malabar, passing and leaving many coasts because he was sure of presence of acquaintances—the Jews. And it is further being consolidated by the excavations and findings at Patanam/ Muziris. I visited the place recently and amazed to see the ancient brickworks, columns, relics of buildings and importantly huge Wine-jars, which archeologists confirmed not prevalent in then-India and a sure sign of Jewish settlements.
Also it is very logical that we, Christians here can be the sons of those Christian Jews.
It is our duty to research and codify the available proofs and establish the legitimacy of our claims, rather than let equated to be ‘illogical buffs banging heads on stone walls of superstitions” and ‘hanging precariously on fables of Thomas Christianity.’
1. Religious superiority: The tone and tenor of the respondents have been reflected with religious superiority, which proves the complexity of the psyche involved. I quote from K. V. Ramakrishna Rao, “If believers of Gods abuse Gods, seekers of Gods destroy Gods, faithful followers of one religion question the faith of others and, against all moral and ethical codes and Universal principles, conduct pseudo-spiritual and psychological-religious warfare against one religion, then these activities are not “inculturation” but “outculturation”, as religion and culture are inseparable for Hindus. Theocentric and theocratic eclectics are dangerous as nuclear, chemical and other warheads.” In Hindu Christian encounters and Indian Express (Madras edition). Of course, though the comments were made in the context of “Inculturation”, it is applicable here also.
2. Calling names continues: Besides, “guy”, “fellow”, “troll”, “Pandi bandits”, the following are added: “rubbish pagans”, “Pandis” -“You are nothing but rubbish pagans / Pandis and Ezhavas and lower Castes of Kerala are ur brothers.”. In fact, James CJ has repeated twice. “bigot”, “BG from NZ are among those low key human -like beings”…… “….like a hack and an amateur” etc. May God give peace of mind for all of you. Sunny Alanoly repents, “Pray for your enemy”! So in the list “enemy” can also be added.
3. Without reading coming for argument: Sunny Alanoly response proves that he has not read the given references properly. For such acts, only the entire proceedings went on in the Madras High Court and the Archbishop Arulappa had settlement with Acharya Paul. If you still persist, I can post all details in your forum. It has very much bearing on “the Thomas myth in India”. John Mathew writes according to his will, as he records: “Suppose Vedaprakash wrote something worth reading. It may contain truth in it, but when he makes an absurd statement: “Kerala has always been Vedic” it makes him look like a hack and an amateur.” I do not know what he writes.
4. The so-called Crosses: You claim all such figures are “crosses”, you are totally wrong. Read F. S. Drake’s, “Nestorian Crosses and Nestorian Christians in China under the Mongols”, Thomas Wilson’s , “Swastika: The Earliest Known Symbol and its Migrations” etc. If one has to by this interpretation, “The Nestorian Church was there in China”! Just by appropriation of others, a particular group of believers cannot claim that such crosses are theirs.
5. The so-called copper plates: Cladius Buchanan recorded as follows: “But there are other ancient documents in Malabar, not less interesting than the Syrian Manuscripts. The old Portuguese historians relate, that soon after the arrival of their countrymen in India, about 300 years ago, the Syrian Bishop of Angamalee (the place where I now am) deposited in the Fort of Cochin, for safe custody, certain tablets of brass, on which were engraved rights of nobility, and other privileges granted by a Prince of a former age ; and that while these Tablets were under the charge of the Portuguese, they had been unaccountably lost, and were never after heard of. Adrian Moens, a Governor of Cochin, in I770j who published some account of the Jews of Malabar, informs us that he used every means in his power, for many years, to obtain a sight of the famed Christian Plates ; and was at length satisfied that they were irrecoverably lost, or rather, he adds, that they never existed. The Learned in general, and the Antiquarian in particular, will be glad to hear jthat these ancient Tablets have been recovered within this last month by the exertions of Lieutenant- (Colonel Macauley, the British Resident in Travan-core, and are now officially deposited with that Officer. ‘ The Christian Tablets are six in number. They are composed of a mixed metal. The engraving on the largest plate is thirteen inches long, by about four broad. They are closely written, four of them on both sides of the plate, making in all eleven pages. On the plate reputed to be the oldest, there is writing perspicuously engraved in nail-headed or triangular- headed letters, resembling the Persepolitan or Babylonish. On the same plate there is writing in another character, which is supposed to have no affinity with any existing character in Hindoo* tan. The grant on this plate appears to be witnessed by four Jews of rank, whose names are distinctly engraved in an old Hebrew character, resembling the alphabet called the Palmyrene: and to each name is prefixed the title of ‘ Alagen,’ or Chief, as the Jews translated it. — It may be doubted, whether there exist in the world many documents of so great length, which are of equal antiquity, and in such faultless preservation, as the Christian Tablets of Malabar. — The Jews of Cochin indeed contest the palm of antiquity: for they also produce two Tablets, containing privileges granted at a remote period; of which they presented to me a Hebrew translation. As no person can be found in this country who is able to translate the Christian Tablets, I have directed an engraver at Cochin to execute a copper-plate facsimile of the whole, for the purpose of transmitting copies to the learned Societies in Asia and Europe. The Christian and Jewish plates together make fourteen pages. A copy was sent in the first instance to the Pundits of the Shanscrit College at Trichiar, by direction of the Rajah of Cochin ; but they could not read the character.* — From this place I proceed to Cande-nad, to visit the Bishop once more before I return to Bengal.’ [Claudius Buchanan, Two Discourses preached before the University of Cambridge, on the commencement of Subday July 1, 1810 and a sermon before the Society of Missions to Africa and the East; at their tenth anniversary. June 12, 1810. To which added Christian Researches in Asia, T. Cadell and W. Davies, in the Strand; and J. Deighton, Cambridge, London, 1811, pp.121-122.
6. In footnote, he recorded, “Most of the Manuscripts which I collected among the Syrian Christians, I have presented to the University of Cambridge; and (they are now deposited in the Public Library of that University, together with the copper-plate fac-similes of the Christian and Jewish Tablets.” (Ibid. P.122). Thus, it is evident that there were no originals of the said copper plates and thus, the available / claimed copper plates have no historical value.
7. I mentioned that, “…….historically, before the advent of the Portuguese, there was no historical record for the “St. Thomas myth in India”, but, Anoop draws my attention to “Anglo-saxon” stories. He says, Alfred sent “emissaries”, but the document say “expedition” and so on! By the way what happened to the “Christians of Bartholomew” in India? Are they also fighting with you? Thus, how they (the Anglo-saxon stories) help historically is not known.
8. Kindly elaborate about the Communists dealing with textbooks.
VEDAPRAKASH
02-08-2008
Hi Vedaprakash,
Please contact P.J. Cherian (KCHR) incharge of the Muziris excavations.He is a scholar,and a professional archaelogist.
[email protected] is the KCHR address.
No one has a superiority complex,its the tenor of your earlier posts that made people respond the
way they did.Christian bashing is a highly professional job nowadays.
Anyway ,remember this you are arguing with amateurs and even then your arguments can be picked
for their loop holes.
Point number 4 is incomprehensible.Why cant you argue logically?Your just throwing some wild
accusations here and there.If you are a scholar,then your organisation of logic is pathetic.
As a request,please build your arguments properly.
Where there are discrepancies in my argument ,I will be willing to admit when confronted
With regard to finding our origins, so far we are lost amidst all the stories of Jews, Namboothiris, Persians, Syrians Other Natives, Buddhists, Manicheans, Bishops, Lost 10 tribes etc. There are far too many comments and articles.
Site owners and contributors, I understand that you have made a great effort, but frankly, a muddle is all what I get from all the data here and the rest of the Web.
Can we make a single article (which could possibly make into wikipedia) using all the data where each of the claims of origins are stated and the evidence for each of in terms of
1: Y-DNA and mtDNA Haplogroups
2: Historical evidence; Old Churches, Monuments, Documents, Old literature, Plates etc. Where they were obtained. And why are they reliable.
3. Culture; Practices, Dressing, Food
4. Litugry and Rituals
5. Folklore; Old and Recent; What could be true/unbiased and what could be not; Why stories could be madeup etc.
6. The reasons for immigration/conversion
and more…
And how valid/strong is each evidence
And come up with an idea of our demographics and its change over the last 2000 years, which by no way need to be an absolute conclusion unless the evidence is so strong.
Sebastian:
I agree with you! Rather than arguing with people who have no interest in our history (whether they are Nasrani themselves, or otherwise), let’s assemble the evidence, put it into bins based on how credible the source is, and present our history in a manner that is not muddled.
That is, when presenting historical evidence, let’s separate:
1a. That evidence which is supported by genetics
1b. That evidence which is supported by archeology
2. That evidence that’s supported by literature and manuscripts (with originals given higher emphasis)
3. That evidence that’s supported by second/third-hand accounts
4. That evidence that’s supported by folklore
There are a variety of interesting aspects to our heterogeneous history, and a lot of that is supported by not even invoking folklore, myths, etc. A scholar who wants to look at our data, could easily separate that info that is not well supported, from that which is well-supported, and not dismiss our community entirely by the often embarrassing stories some of our historians present.
And when someone like Vedaprakash comes along to talk about how Christianity was introduced to Kerala by missionaries from Europe, we could point them to the most conservative evidence (e.g., 1b or 2) to indicate that there is a scientific (and not mythical) basis to our community’s ancient existence in Kerala. So we don’t go looking like yahoos spouting stuff about how “St. Thomas came to Kerala and converted 7 families, and blah blah blah” which begs the obvious “Ok — prove it!” to which we can not respond with any credible evidence.
Dear All,
There are two things,
1)One our past suppoted by history.
2) The other, our faith and beliefs not supported by history.
There is no “historic proof” that Yeshu rose from death, yet it is our greatest fundamental belief. So is our past. Where there is historic proof, let us lay it down – in black and white and where there is belief, let us say that it is our ‘belief’ and not supported by history. This is the correct way. There is no shame in having a blief without ‘historic’ support. Remember Yeshu’s words ‘… blessed are those who have faith in me and yet have not seen me….’
Why should we care what others think about us? We define who is a Nasrani based upon ‘Sathyam’ – Truth’. History will then follow our beliefs.
It was very bad when one in this forum used bad language to express their feelings. This is not Nasrani;. I apologise.
Very kind words there James,except how would you feel if someone used the same words on you?
An apology is the only way to end this stupid conversation.
George, I think faith is for experiencing Spirituality and knowing God and should be confined to our community. Whenever we take faith which is founded on the lack of evidence, into evidence based disciplines such as Science or History like the Creationists, we become a target of instant mockery and the credibility of our arguments is questioned, when we could have avoided it in the first place by putting arguments with solid proof. While our faith(eg . similarities to other creeds) can be analysed to infer history, faith itself cannot be argued to be part of history. We need not be ashamed of our faith. But we should be careful to not even make our discussons appear as if we are trying to take faith into our arguments. Putting faith into other disciplines would lead to the bad effects of religious fundamentalism, since as a society we would require respecting other faiths which could be dangerous. For example, belief that Israel is the home of the Jews by some some Jews and Christians and the likes from other religions, as you know has not yielded any positive results.
We, Nasranis have a good track record in complying to this St.Paul teaching of faith and have created the impression of a tolerant creed to others unlike many of the foriegn ministries operating here and should strive to maintain the same.
James CJ,
You are not helping the situation by your comments.
Just read this verse;
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus ” (Gal 3: 28).
The idea is to find our origins whatever it is. We need not turn our face against the truth. And whenever someone tries to humiliate us using our precieved complexes, we should just make it clear that they can’t because we don’t bother, and argue them out using logic and reasoning or don’t respond to them rather than using insults so as to lower ourselves to their way of debating. It’s best that everyone debating here whether Nasrani or otherwise use this approach.
Dear Sunny Analony
please don’t equate Bible and Bhagavat Geetha . They are written two different contexts and perspectives . Please don’t equate diamond with silver .
This is an ( preaching Christianity in an Indian context ) absurd thing . we want to keep our liturgy and traditions original / Please don’t imitate the Protestants- They will end up in misery ,sure.
Don’t be bothered about this petrol / crude oil powered world Economy . it will perish and the worthy people will regain their power.
Devapriya,
Regarding your comment: “Kerala Church do not have any traditions datable to earlier than Protuguese.”
If that is the case, please explain why the Portuguese were so keen to institute a liturgy full of semitic words “Shubaho la bohala ruho” or kuriyelayison or ‘sthowman kaalos’ into our services.
Devapriya,
“Kerala Church do not have any traditions datable to earlier than Protuguese.”:
Then, please explain why did the portugese institute a semitic liturgy with words like “sthowman kaalos”.
Why this church revolted against portugese and why do we have syrian bishops?
You may also consider that eastern and western schism happened 1000 years ago.
Is Admin sleeping? This thread is getting weird..
There is a remarkable lack of love in most of the commands.We are one regardless of caste,religion or race.
Whatever we are,our ancestors wont come from heaven and feed us.We are dependent on each other
,lets enjoy each others company while we are alive.
There is a remarkable lack of love in most of the comments .We are one regardless of caste,religion or race.
Whatever we are,our ancestors wont come from heaven and feed us.We are dependent on each other
,lets enjoy each others company while we are alive.
James,
The fundamental principle of civilization is equality of man.If you dont breathe this principle in spirit,
you are not part of civilisation.
James, you contradict yourself in every post. You insult lower castes in one post, and blame Hindhuism for caste system in another one. You try to show off the greatness on Christianity while posting extremely non-Christian comments. Fundamentalism what you claim to oppose can only be fought with the help of people from all religions and races. Not by posting divisive comments. Civilization and technology have prospered only in egalitarian socities where ideas were taken from all people. The world could be heaven if everyone worked together for the good of humanity. In a time where we need the world united aginst power and war hungry maniacs and religious fundamentalists, you are simply fueling their agenda.
JamesCJ,
Read what you cut and paste for once.
…How Hindu belief underlies India’s caste system — and why the subservient status of 240 million “untouchables” may lead to the greatest civil-rights conflict of the 21st century
and rest of the stuff
and then think twice before making some of the comments, like you did before esp against BG.
Dear Vedaprakash&Devapriya,
Please clarify your points
1 .Are you saying that St.Thomas story is a fabricated one because Acts of Thomas is totally unreliable? (Or any other points you have in support)
2. Nazranies have no history before pre-Portuguese or the Church have a later day origin by Edessa migrants
.
Can you put your points in support of your position? Your earlier postings were reactionary which does not serve the purpose.
THANKS
Dear Jeevan Philip:
I think they are saying that Nasranis have no “historical traditions” that date to the pre-Portuguese era.
Although they do not seem to be scholars nor do they have a serious interest in Nasrani history (why should they after all — how many of us seriously care about the thousands of other interesting communities in India), I think in this respect they might be correct.
1. We do have “history” that dates to the pre-Portuguese era; this is supported by some archaeological evidence (the Persian grosses, some old granite crosses, some old murals, etc.), inscriptions, and possibly some of the old East Syriac literature. Plus, there is anecdotal evidence from travelers from West Asia.
2. We do have “religious traditions” that date to the pre-Portuguese era; this is the East Syriac rite, culture and customs, many of which remain in many of the Syriac Christian communities in Kerala. We also have Passover traditions that probably date back to Jewish Christians in Kerala. And the three main old Syriac Christian groups in Kerala (Syro-Malabar, Church of the East, and the Orthodox/Jacobite Church) all, more or less, follow rites and traditions that pre-date the Roman Catholic interference in Kerala.
3. But as far as “historical traditions” — i.e., traditions that explain our historical origins — I don’t know if we have those. Perhaps many of them died out during the waves of interference from foreign sources that we faced in the past five or six centuries. All we have now are silly pseudo-historical traditions, many of which are unbelievable, but are continuously thrown out as if they were bonafide history (e.g., Thomas converting seven families, the Knanaya fiction of the 19/20th century, each Church’s own revisionist history, etc.). And it is these pseudo-historic traditions that make our legitimate claims seem illegitimate, and spawn all sorts of criticisms (from all sides: other religion’s fundamentalists, Protestants, scholars, historians, various Popes/Patriarchs) that diminish our claims.
I think the main thing we should take from Vedaprakash & Devapriya is that we have to be careful about presenting our history. We should keep the history separate from the myth and from religion; i.e., we should present our history so that an atheist scholar (for example) would be able to read it and find it to be unbiased and well-supported.
My opinion at least.
Why is C J James posting so much irrelevant, ignorant noise?
Dear John Mathew,
U might have heard the proverb: “Empty vessels make more noise”
Now we see as demonstration that there are so many ’empty vessels’ on this forum, non-Nasranis and those posing as Nasranis or even those who are supposed to be Nasranis. Variety of vessels !
This site is almost been hijacked….. And Admin, I still wonder where u are !!!
I get one conclusion from all the recent developments….. Nasrani.net is on the the right track … thus so many distractions.
Fellow Nasranis,
This is only a transition phase so just remain calm and don’t fall into cheap rantings like some here are doing. Let’s take this phase as a short vacation and resume later.
Dear John Mathew,
I agree with you. ’we should keep the history separate from the myth and from religion’-you said it. I hope Nazranies need more you kind of people open and non prejudiced to face the challenges. I keep my beliefs personal and do not mix it with historical studies. I never argue in terms of certainty because I have no hard core evidences. But in history we have a lot of situation like this. We should open to critics and analyze the valued points they raise with historical research methods.
What I observe here about Vedaprakash&Devapriya is not clearly making their points. They only quote from some books which supports their points (whether it is from church sources or so called historians) and not at all receptive or ready to discuss the points/issues in detail. I read many RSS thinkers and I respect them for their certain views. But I always objected to their views about Hinduism/Indus valley civilization etc
.
The saddest thing is that the likes of Vedaprakash&Devapriya making grave mistakes when they argue on the basis of few books instead considering the possibilities. Historical techniques have gone far beyond document references and few excavations. Now we have many other methods such as geomorphology, genetics, satellite photography, philology, linguistics, carbon dating etc. for help in historical research. We need to question our Nampoothiri/7 church/Mylapore stories with new historical research methods.
Thanks.
Dear Vedapraksh,
You comment:
No.1: I agree with you.
2. Calling names not decent, but guy, fellow is no indecency. ‘Enemy’ is an English word, no bad word.
I was quoting Christ’s famous words. I NEVER consider you as enemy at all, but a fellow human with different opinion.
3. Well, I agree, I didn’t read.
4. No comments.
5. We can argue true and false, but till scientific research is done and proven all argument may be false. Copper plates are there is Indian Christian history, but plates are not the basic of Christianity in India, but Christ is the prime basic.
6. Disagree,
It’s reference is very much in Indian & Malabar Christian history, max. may said baseless till scientifically established, which can happen, researchs are on
7. Just ask/research why “Synod of Diamper of 1599” is held by Portugese.
8. Best read current Malayalam news.
Dear Vedapraksh & Devapriya,
Pls do not feel offended by NSC community, but we have right to defend when somebody attacking our origin which is based on age old heritage and traditions and strong belief with mostly insufficient and feeble points, opinions, writings etc.
1. Opinion/ claim that St Thomas origin is a myth, by anybody, Christian even Priest or Bishop however scholar they are is their own and not binding on Nasrani Diaspora as a whole.
BECAUSE IT IS OUR SACRED BELIEF like our strong belief in Christ and we will defend to the last.
2. When our origin is questioned quite naturally some members become emotional and little rude, BUT NON OF NASRANIS ARE EXTREMISTS like in other religions, pls note.
3. Believers and spirituality irrespective of religion is not subject to rationale. (If St. Thomas and Christ are myth, Hindu Gods too are.)
Hinduism being no exception, being a believer of Hindu Gods, aren’t you committing excess by questioning another religion’s belief ?
If yes, you must repent to us, if no you ‘are’ what I termed in my posting on July 29th, you deserve it.
Pls reply point by point..
Dear James,
We trust in Christ and St. Thomas origin. Anybody can question that, but we are not liable to meekly accept it.
One can understand a true Nasrani’s emotions when questioned rudely, but we are no religious fanatics or extremists; WE ARE DECIPLES OF CHRIST who is tolerance and patience personified. We have to prove we are worthy to the name ‘Nasrayan’s disciples.
Please choose words for not to be blamed by fellow-Nasranis.
Bhagwadgita: I am a practicing Christian, Bible is most sacred to me. But I cannot be a fanatic to discredit great ideas from Gita (or other sacred to other religions) like “Karmanye vadikarasthe, Maa phaleshu Kadachana”.
Dear Jackson,
You said:
>>>U might have heard the proverb: “Empty vessels make more noise”
Jackson, but how are you segregating “Empty and full vessels”? The great teacher(full vessel) will pour some to empty vessel than neglecting/ cursing them. Or why God created them ? Cursing an ignorant, you are cursing Creator ! Teach &correct them Jacson.
>>>Now we see…. non-Nasranis …posing as Nasranis … supposed to be Nasranis. Variety of vessels !
If no variety vessels debate between it will fail the purpose of NSC. Million $$$ question is WHO is real Nasrani.
>>>This site is almost been hijacked….. And Admin, I still wonder where u are !!!
Real Nasrani is great fighter to all odds. Fight with hijackers Jackson. Knowledge is power and Jackson is very powerful with knowledge in Nasrani history.
>>>I get one conclusion from all the recent developments….. Nasrani.net is on the right track … thus so many distractions.
There U are… You agrees it !!
>>>Fellow Nasranis, This is only a transition phase so just remain calm and don’t fall into cheap rantings like some here are doing. Let’s take this phase as a short vacation and resume later.
It is counterproductive, equal to admit “empty” and cornered to questions . NSC may be termed as “Tortoise country” by it’s opponents !
Dear Jackson, a Nasrani with strong basement why hide, fear, dodge or evade anybody ?
”Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west ……” Isaiah 43:5
“The LORD is the strength of my life; Of whom shall I be afraid?” (Psalm 27:1)
“The LORD is on my side; I will not fear. What can man do to me?” Psalm 118:6
“Through knowledge the righteous will be delivered”. Proverbs 11:9
“I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you.” (Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20).
Dear Jackson, show me a full vessel on earth, to make my master, for we are empty (except what is poured by Him).
Regards…
Why is comments of Devapriya and Vedaprakash when they give correct Historical Reference not allowed now
The language of Kanai Thomman plate is not ancient Tamil but medival Malayalam with some medival Tamil mixture.
1. Ambari (Howdah on an elephant) AMBARAM is Tamil
2. Ankaram (courtyard) ANTHAPPURAM
3. Antholam (palanquin) PALLAKKU
4. Ammoolam (tax gathering) VARI
5. Arpu (cheers) OOKKAM
6. Aala vattam (Peacock feather fan) MAYIL VISIRI
7. Aana savari (Elephant riding) YAANAI ETTAM (AANA is a laterday Malyalam variant)
8. Uchippoovu (Head Turban) MUNDASU
9. Kacha (Robes) KACHAI
10. Kacha puram (Over coat) MEL CHATTAI
11. Kankanam (Bangles) VALAIAL
12. Kaal thala (Anklet Rings) KAZHAL
13. Kaal chilambu (Anklets Bells) CHILAMBU
14. Kurava (Tongue Cheers) KURAVAI
15. Kuthirasavari (horse ride) KUTHIRAI ETTAM (Savari is modern)
16. Kuzhal (Bugles) KUZHAL (Flute)
17. Kodi (Flag) KODI
18. Kaikara (Hand Ornaments) KAI ANI
19. Kaithala (Bangles) KAI THALA (Sanskrit)
20. Cheli (a kind of tax) VARI
21. Chemkombu (another tax) VARI
22. Chenda (Drum) CHENDAI (Chenda is Malayalam)
23. Thamburu (String Instruments) YAZH (Thamburu was not played by ancient Tamils)
24. Thazha kkuda (Royal Palm Umbrella) OLAI KUDAI( Tamil Royalty did not use it /Namboothiri used)
25. Ner vaal (Straight Sword) NER VAAL
26. Pattu chatta (Silk Coat) PATTU CHATTAI
27. Patturumal (Silk Handkerchief) MALAYALAM
28. Pattumundu (Silk dothi) PATTU UDUKKAN
29. Pakal vilakku (Day Lamp) PAKAL VILAKKU
30. Padi pura (Entry Gate House) PADIPPURA is Malayalam
31. Pathakkam (Necklace) PATHAKKAM is recent Tamil
32. Panni pudava (Embroidary Robes) PUDAVAI is Tamil
33. Paravathani (Carpet) KAMABALAM Paravathani is Malalyalam
34. Pavaada (Royal Cloth) PAVADAI ( petticoat in Taml)
35. Pallakku (Palanquin) PALLAKKU
36. Pavada (Royal Cloth) PAVADA (petticoat of females)
37. Panchavadyam (Five Instrument Orchestra) Panchavadyam is sanskrit
38. Pandal Vithanam (Pandal Decoration)
39. Pathinezhu Parichamel Kathruthwam (Control over the 17 Low castes)
Paricha Kathruthuvam is not Tamil.
40. Maddalam (Hand Drum)
41. Manarkolam (Platforms)
42. Mudi (Crown)
43. Mudikuzhabharanam (Head ornaments) Abharanam is sanskrit not used in ancient TN
44. Mammoolam (Tax)
45. Methi adi (Wooden Chappels) METHI ADI is Malayalam (Mithiadi is Tamil)
46. Raja vaadyam (Royal Orchestra) RAJA VAADYAM (Sanskrit)
47. Raja Sankham (Irippu) (Honour to sit in court with the King) Sanskrit rarely used in ancient TN
48. Rajabogham (Honor to eat with King) Sanskrit
49. Veena (String Instrument)
50. Deevetti (Indigenous Torch) Theevatti
51. Thookku manchal (Swinging Cot) Malayalam
52. Thondon
53. Thoranam (Decoration) Ancient Tamil
54. Thol vala (Armpit Bangle) Malayalam (Tamil Valai)
55. Theendalkattal (untouchability) Theendaikattai was not there in ancient Chera kingdom
56. Nada (Cheers) ?
57. Nayattuhubhogam (Privilege for hunting) Nayaattu Bhogam is Malayalam not ancient Tamil
58. Naikudiparisha
59. Nedizakuda (Royal Umbrella) Leaf Umrella was not used by Tamil kings
60. Nettipetti (Cloth Box)
61. Nettikettu (Head Dress)
62. Veera vaadyam (Heroic Bugles) Later language
63. Veera madalam
64. Veera srimkhala (Royal Chain) Sanskrit
65. Viri panthal (Honour to errect Pandal)
66. Venchamaram (Royal Fan) Ven Chamaram
67. Sankhu (conch)
68. Sangu Edam Piri (Conch with left screw) Malayalm (Tamil Idampuri)
69. Sankhu Valampiri (conch with right screw) Malayalam (Valampuri Tamil)
70. Bhoomi Karamozhivu (land tax evation) Typical laterday Malayalam (Nilam in ancient Tamil)
71. Nayattu (Hunting) Nayattu is laterday Malayalam after the Nair arrival
72. Paalamarangal (Forest concession)
The list is fabricated in middle age Kerala, possibly in the Portuguese period .The ancient Chera kingdom used none other than classic Tamil. This document should be left to the scrutiny of Tamil scholors with knowledge of ancient Tamil. Cheraman Perumal rule started in 800 AD. Earlier kings were called Cheral.
None of the ancient Tamil documents prior to 800 AD ever mentioned the existence of Christianity. Silappadikaram or numerous Sangam Literature upto 5th century AD never mentioned the existence of Christianity prior to the Tharisapalli plates issued by Kollam king Ayyanadikal Thiruvadikal in late 9th century. None of the Dravidian records of South India indicate the existence of Christianity among the Natives.Yavana (Greek) Chonaka (Turks) Ezha (Sri Lankan) are mentioned in ancient Tamil literature. Neither the caste system exist among the ancient Tamils of Kerala who were of Dravidian stock. Foreigners were forced to live in sequestered seaside cities with bells hanging from their doors . Famous port cities were Poompuhar,Musirippatinam, Korkai (Tuticorin) and Thondi(Kadalundi). There has been mention of a Yavana commander who revolted against the Chera king Nedumcheralathan who humiliated him by pouring black oil on his head and paraded through streets in the 2nd Century. Christianity was mostly unknown to Indians prior to 800 AD. It is possible that some foreigners practised it in port cities which the Dravidians ignored.
Namboothiris did not exist in ancient Kerala to be converted by a foreign missionary.Namboothiris came to Kerala much later after 7th century. Upto the fall of Chera Dynasty only Tamil customs and language was used in Kerala. Namboothiris though appeared in 7th century migrating from Tulunadu did not play any role in the Chera kingdom except their Temple duty. The Aryan and Nagas who were ethnically different from Dravidian Tamils, started dominating Kerala only after the fall of 1100 AD, after the fall of Later Chera Kingdom.
The Portuguese imagined that Namboothiris existed from time beginning in Kerala. The Syrian Christians do the same. Evidence for Syrian Christian presence as a community in Kerala exists only after the 9th century. The Tharisappally shasanam and other grants are given with the sole aim of protecting the foreign immigrants. The Cheppeds served as Visa and Grant. The Cheppeds did not grant any foreign immigrant jurisdiction or powers over the Natives. But they allowed the foreign immigrants to practice their religeon and culture. No foreigners including the Romans and Greeks with whom Dravidian kings had sent Embassy (Augustus Caeser Julian) etc were given overlordship or accepted as aristocracy in ancient Tamil Nadu ie Kerala. The brutal repression and Slavery of Dravidians started much later in Naga rule when Matriarchal kingdoms were founded after 1300 AD.
Yes, there is a possibility of syrian immigration during the 7 th century. The syrian crosses found in kerala dates back to this period.It may be true that all the copper plates were grants. The namboodiri conversion story may be later made up one. The nairs and namboodiris found in kerala are dravidians only.They are not at all aryans. There are no pure aryan people in india. You may find such type of people in the middle eastern region . This may be the reason why the syrian christians shows a mix up character of the aryans.
Many of the syrian christians are light in color and good looking in features compared other hindu brothers like namboodiris. This may be reason for the make up of the namboodiri conversion story. But the syrian christians are a mixed population. you can see very coloured people to fair skinned ones.
i heard from an elder says that long time back nasranis and muslims mappilas were considered same mappilas as one. i would think even in bc they all here because of trade to west asian land. and later namboothri culture also rooted in kerala. but nasranis or even mapplias are not from namboothirs which i think. as knanaya said we can see also many evident non keralites looks of muslilms families which they been living in kerala for centures . totally i believe kerala was a place of all these nasranis and mappiias then only the namboothris
I read that nasranis ancient documents were burned by portughese which was their administration synod of udayambor. so does knanaya been through these persecutions? therefore for nasrani most of their orgin and documents were lost and forgotten? Then what about knanaya ? what was their past? and do they do their immigration informations, vessels, documents, any thing clear evidence if they are well aware of their roots till now?
I’m disappointed! The last post is dated October 03, 2009 23:32. No Nazrani to quibble over their ancestry for nearly six months! If this softens your mood, please take it: I just read the family history of four Achayan brothers who “came to settle down” in Chengannur. It was the 16th century, according to the claim made in the website. The family tree diagram is illustrated nicely. AD 52 – St Thomas converts some Nampoothiri families. One line was Sankarapuri Nampoothiripad. There is no evidence, no “edicts”, no “copper plates”, none other type either. Why should anyone care? If they feel good to connect their genes to someone who physically touched St Thomas, let them! Let the Knai Thomman genes feel good. Let the scolars worry about “truth” and evidence. Keep the post growing!
Joseph:
Out of curiosity what family was it that was making the ridiculous claim?
Response to John Mathew:
Personally, I wouldn’t like to name names. If you’re serious email me directly.
Joseph:
I had thought the family history you were referring to was online, and hence could be shared.
Regardless, I’m interested since there were a few interesting things that happened in Chengannur in the 16th c, e.g., (1) the migration of a branch of a family (Mukkathu) from Kallada that claims descent from the 10th century West Asian immigration of Mar Sabor, (2) some migration of Southists out of Chengannur, etc.
So I’d like to see how this new piece of info adds to what I know.
How can I contact you?
John
See u have the right to say something and i understand that. Then i dont know what is the matter with feeling good with relooking our history and it the matter of learning process. If we were brahimns and we have proofs then who are the one not going to admit it, think. Yes our family history says as a shankaran namboothri converted at the first century and the most they could go bk to 17 century from pala all these family tree spreaded out. But syrian christian history we all agreed to learn in sundays school and church history as conoon kurushu sathayam and many historical even like portughese did destory many documents and persecutions. Think we are being syrian christians having syric liturgy in our worship and have u noticed our middleastern sort of suryani features among many family members and tirumenis in our denominations? if we are just want to go with we are plenty of hindus converted and we just decided to use these middleastern worship in our kerala over centuries? and recently a pakallomatton a prestly class family member showing exact jewish cohen dna results? so i just came to feel that what is the fuss with knanayas? and what evident proof they could provide to many eager syrian christian member who just want to relook out history? Other than knanays thommen there was many migration happened that mar sabor iso and mar proth group 9 century, bar iso a small one, nestorisan , chladeans, armenian immigrations among the crowd over centuries and mixed in to it. and also it noted that many of these syic or aramic suceeded to have converts and add chritians to the communites and married em and these is also these knanaya tomeen legacy claim not only southist but northist also. My close friend and historian Mr ambooken from mala admit that the were plenty of jews converted to nasranis because they did not have choice over centuries only few orthodox jews did not converted. and these jew simply just married in to few local as he said. I heard all these history on my younger ages and just let these things go but now what is it all about if you really think? If such relation we had we hindu communities why are not just intermarring each other but i am not critizing these point too much? Even if we are looking knanayas if they said they brought west syric kramam at 3rd century then its more historcal fact and many expert saying these was no west syric used before 16 century but it believed to be nestorian east syic litury and protutghese been blocking bishops came to malabar that nasrnis lost the continuations from middleast that later the new bava from jerusalam appointed protughese and then the west syric liturgy believed to used..then the yakobaya syrian liturgy and some migraions from syria noted and that is believed to be the jacobites. that i recently came to know. and yes there is also few brahimns families converted to syrian christians early days and we are not rejecting and these history says in many place. I felt many are saying 1000s of brahimns conveted at this first century and these is no proofs of brahimn at the first century from exisisting brahimns in kerala. even if brahimns ther brahimns only a minoity and yes as it says it believed to be few vedic brahimins that st thomas converted..But this not just it and these is more thing we need to admit. Also it noted that st thomas preached to many jewish settlers and they did not converted but they accepted yeshu messiah and had aramaic worship and they were the nasranis and had right and privilages from the kings and these could attract many christian migrations….. and then dravidians and all these intermarried. but totally i feel we still have more semitic influences than any other that i could find in my families or many families i could find. i think syrian christians is of hetrogenious people that all these people are there with totally semitic influences. Again i recently decided to stop getting involve in to these matter and now i am already in contact with experts and we went more ahead that these kind of usual talks. yes may be who know all these hindu converts might have happened that i know that i am for it and we should be responsble for preaching the gospel but as syrian christian identity claim matter i am more for the syian christian semitic side … i could clearly feel myself and many i observed and i think it continue to exist.
John Mathew:
I just assumed you could draw email info from the site! Later I remembered it was not so. Here is the site address. It’s not the Kallada line. I hit upon the site by accident. In fact the same is true of this site too.
http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/Malankara/4.htm
Scroll down to the bottom and hit HOME. On the home page two families are indicated. Browse both. I think the first one takes you to what I mentioned.
Good luck! Make a post to confirm if you found it or not.
Thanks Joseph, I got it.
It’s not as interesting as I had hoped…
Christians on the Coromandel Coast?
Does anyone have any info on the existence of other historic Christian communities on the Coromandel Coast (as this article suggests)? Geographic extent, etc.?
Thanks!
THARISSAPPALLY CHEPPEDU.
Syriac Christian Historians have written a lot about their prestigious plates of THARISSAPALLI. Their imaginative stories have created an aversion among secular historians toward these elevated stories. The building of Kurekkenikollam and starting of new Calendar calculations are nothing but a wild imagination by propagandist church historians. It is surprising to note that none of these historians or Malankara Nazranies asked for a modern study on these plates with the help of new scientific techniques.
There are two sets of copperplates, first group contains three plates and the second set contains four plates out of which one plates is missing from first set(some say one each from both sets). One plate from the first set and three plates from the second set are kept at Syriac Orthodox Catholicate Kottayam and other plate from the first set and one from the last set are kept by Pulathin aramana, Marthoma church, Thiruvalla.
DONOR : Ayyan Adikal thiruvadikal(aynadi kudiruvadi),at the time of Thanu Ravi(Kothanu eravikthan) Time not before A.D.885. Generally historians misunderstand that Thanu Ravi and Ravi khulashekharan are one person .It is a mistake based on recent historical research. There are four SHASANAS dealing with Thanu ravi (Tharisappally shasanam -5th admin year,Iringalakkuda shasanam 11th year,Thiruvattuvay shasanam 17th year,Kadamba mahadevi’s thillai sthanam shasanam ) are available clearly noting his name and one can easily calculate his time of rule . (Read Pracheena Keralathinte Rashtriya charithram By K. Shivashankaran Nair Page133-137)
BENEFICIARY: Kurekkeni kollam Tharissappally ( not today’s Kollam)constructed by ESHODATHAPARAI. There is no clear indication of Mar sabarisho but at the last of the shasana state that ‘AYYANADKAL THIRUVDIYEKONDU MARUVAN CHAPARICH NEERVEEZHTHI ‘ which indicate that the pally was constructed by ESHODATHAPARAI and person who got persuaded the Kind to grant the tharishapally shasanam was MARUVAN CHAPARICHA. This is from original PADANUPADA reproduction of shasanam.
http://jeephilip.blogspot.in/
vedprakash and deva priya seemed to have tried there best in making st thomas christians look like something new. there disdain is quite high and was fun to make others to review. the issue here is looking for answers against a religion and minimizing certain facts and over-magnifying certain opinions. comparing words like el shaddai to shiva, made me have what the f? expressions because outright any bible reading christian can say how idiotic it is. the existence of the plates are a reality, only thing that can tell its originality is by testing its age, though that process isn’t flawless. other allegations are already addressed, but what is astonishing is the religious intolerance and depths that people can go for it.
Thank you, for citing Tuki as a tamil word for peacock – that was new information to me.
2. THARISSAPALLI SASANAM
NESTORIANISM
Until Portuguese came Nestorianism was practised by Kerala Christians. Nestorianism was closer to Jewism than Christianity.
Nestorians considered not as God but as a human being. Nestorians refused to call Mary as “Mother of God” instead they called her as “Mother of Jesus”.Nestorians worshipped “Eli” alias “Alaha” ie Yehova. Early Nestorians practiced circumcision but in the second millennium they abandoned the custom.
Indian Nestorians were controlled by Bishops from Kurdish Bishops of Mosul in Iraq.
SANGAM LITERATURE
Sangam literature written between 500 BC to 400 AD never mentioned Christianity or Christians. None of the Chera dynasty inscriptions unti 1102 AD mentioned Christians.
COSMOS INDICOPLEUSTUS
Cosmos Indicopleustus an Egyptian Nestorian monk who travelled to India mentioned the existence of Persian Nestorian Christians in India and Srilanka in 522 AD.
Cosmos indicopleustus mentioned the existence of Nestorians at “Male”. This Male could be either Kerala or Malenad in Karnataka.
SASSANIAN PERSECUTION
The early Nestorian refugees might have fled from Persian capital Seleucia Ctesiphon in the fourth century AD following Sasanian persecution.
MALABAR NASRANI MAPILLA
The Nestorian Syrian Christians might have been traders who shuttled between Basra to Malabar.
The foreigners who married local women were called Mapillas.
The foreign Syrian traders married the local coastal women and thus a “Malabar Suriani Mapilla” community was formed.
EUROPEAN MISSIONARIES
European missionary John of Montecorvino reported that Christians of Kerala very few and were persecuted by local Hindus in 1292 AD. John of Montecorvino did not mention seeing any Syrian churches in Keral. He mentioned a Syrian church at Madras.
None of the European missionaries such as John of Montecorvino, Jordanus catalani and John of Marignolli between 1292 AD to 1347 AD never mentioned Syrian churches in Kerala or large no of Christians in Kerala. The Nestorians in Kerala might have been anything between few hundred to few thousands.
In 1329 AD Jordanus catalani became the first Roman Catholic Bishop of Quilon diocese.
CONVERSION OF VILLARVETTOM KING
Around 1339 AD Villarvettom king converted to Nestorian Christianity. Villarvettom kingdom ruled the areas between Chendamangalam to Vaikkom. Capital of Villarvettom kingdom was Chendamangalam and the second capital was Udhayamperoor. Villarvettom kingdom was a branch of Kuttanadu Uthiyan cheralathan branch which ruled from Udayanapuram.
The conversion of Villarvettom people might have increased the Syrian Nestorian population to 30000.
The Villarvettom people joined Poruguese in the hope that Portuguese will their enemies, the Tulu-Nepali invaders and restore their country to them.